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Do you have to fall to learn? - Page 13

post #361 of 418

Exactly Ghost, will is mentioned in my dictionary and thesaurus and their definition of willing is congruent with your understanding. Accepting a greater amount of risk is not the same as being willing. Sorry Jay, I'll go with my reference books when it comes to this. But as I mentioned definition debates are a fools errand. No one is proposing falling on purpose and as I mentioned in response to you, the what to do during a fall idea is a subject you feel is worth demanding it is included in ski school curriculum and every ski lesson. Perhaps that is something you should discuss at length with your chosen ski mentor / coach / instructor. Peace brother and ski well


Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/27/14 at 1:43pm
post #362 of 418

With all this pedantry over what the word will means, can anyone tell me if they've ever met anyone who was able to get over the fear of falling without falling? I've met people whose fears kept them from improving, but I've never met anyone who got over those fears without actually hitting the ground a number of times.

 

Or let's put it this way. Does anyone know any instructors, racers, or even any people who can ski double-black fairly well who haven't fallen many times throughout their lives?

post #363 of 418
It happens all the time, fear of falling is a moving target. More aptitude allows a person to expand their movement options without falling and this in turn allows them to ski more of the mountain without falling. They still fear falling just not in the situation that once might have caused them to fall.
post #364 of 418
Summary of this??
1. Beginners and their instructors insist falling is not part of skiing or a lesson unless otherwise... You fell.
2. Skiing and falling are one in the same.
3. You only improve by over coming fear.
4. Ski school trainers have intense liability to the word fall or falling or risk of falling or even willingness to falling.
5. You can learn by falling because you never stop learning.
Anything else.
post #365 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post


You are trolling and assuming a lot simply because I don't agree with you, or your premise that you know best how to develop an appropriate lesson plan and assess reasonable risk for others. Additionally accusing me of being a liar based on the fact that our school does not follow your suggestions about what and what not to include in a lesson plan is quite a stretch. Perhaps if you were actually involved in the process your baseless accusation would have more merit. In short, Nobody is being dishonest and I take that accusation as a personal insult. Perhaps it's time to review the code of conduct agreement you signed to participate here. It really doesn't matter your intent if your words cross that line. Clean up you act my friend.
You mad bro?

Saying I called you a liar is a bit of a stretch. You're omitting discussing an almost certain eventuality for anyone who participates in the sport. Call it whatever you like.

Btw, you don't have to be an instructor to instruct, or to make basic observations, or to discuss the realities of attempting to master a difficult sport.
Edited by MT Skull - 7/28/14 at 7:39am
post #366 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

It happens all the time, fear of falling is a moving target. More aptitude allows a person to expand their movement options without falling and this in turn allows them to ski more of the mountain without falling. They still fear falling just not in the situation that once might have caused them to fall.

 

So why do I see so many people who won't ski terrain that they actually have the skills to handle? Why do I see people back away from terrain because they overestimate the danger of a fall? (They overestimate what will happen if they fall, not whether or not they will fall.) Why do so many ski ultra-defensively when they're suddenly confronted with a real possibility of falling? Why have I never met anyone who has never fallen but can ski double-blacks well?

 

The next time you see some people skiing difficult terrain well, ask them what would happen if they fell on a particular line. Then, the next time you see someone back away from terrain because they're afraid of falling, ask what they think would happen if they fell. I'm willing to bet the expert skiers will give you a far more accurate prediction. I seriously doubt you'll ever meet an expert who says "beats me, I've never fallen."

post #367 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

 No one is proposing falling on purpose and as I mentioned in response to you, the what to do during a fall idea is a subject you feel is worth demanding it is included in ski school curriculum and every ski lesson.

 

Is there not a bit of a disconnect here - ski schools/trainers and risk assessors have decided that falling is not a subject worth mentioning to never-evers/cautious beginners, yet some people have articulated that fear of falling and the whole "not knowing what to do" was one of the biggest formative memories of their early learning experience?


I understand why in a litigation dominated culture, lawyers might warn you off addressing the subject, but it seems pretty poor that it isn't a formal part of the syllabus in early development - maybe you're saying that you don't set out to teach it because it happens anyway?

 

 

As for the handbags re meaning of willing - think about the common usage that military personnel are willing to die to preserve the rights and freedoms of their country.  Does that mean they intend to die or expect to die? Of course not.  [Apologies for this example in a fairly flippant thread but it puts into context the petty squabbles on semantics]

post #368 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by CerebralVortex View Post

So why do I see so many people who won't ski terrain that they actually have the skills to handle? Why do I see people back away from terrain because they overestimate the danger of a fall? (They overestimate what will happen if they fall, not whether or not they will fall.) Why do so many ski ultra-defensively when they're suddenly confronted with a real possibility of falling? Why have I never met anyone who has never fallen but can ski double-blacks well?

The next time you see some people skiing difficult terrain well, ask them what would happen if they fell on a particular line. Then, the next time you see someone back away from terrain because they're afraid of falling, ask what they think would happen if they fell. I'm willing to bet the expert skiers will give you a far more accurate prediction. I seriously doubt you'll ever meet an expert who says "beats me, I've never fallen."

Agree
post #369 of 418

One Epic gathering, with the inevitable candid shot in the trip report of JASP lying in the snow with his feet in the air, would put everyone on the same good humored footing here, I expect. JASP, you'd be following in a line of excellent skiers who have lain in that spot before you. Don't be self-conscious about it! I do not have the skills of some of the people whose bloopers have been posted here, but I offer this up, courtesy of Jamesj, in a gesture meant to remind us that we're none of us as consistent as we think we are in July. At least I hope we're not, because that would be a bit boring in my view. :)


post #370 of 418

^^^^ This thread needs more of that... let's see what fall pics we can dig up :D

post #371 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by james123 View Post

I think my skiing and my falling has become more controlled, patient, mediatative, calculated, expected outcomes from experience. When I ski I have a propioceptive awareness. I like to say a feeling of things. Times when I just suck it all in and hoot outloud. And at other times, to remain completely neutral calm and balanced in order to contemplate the difficulty of my situation, you know going way to fast and the terrain get technical. So over the years. I think falling has its complexity its two sides. Some falls i just suck it up and hoot outloud oh crap! With a sense of whatever, lost my balance no big deal, I'm just going to bail. Other times it happens in that calm meditative thoughtful contemplation, yah almost slow motion, but fast and disorienting, ohhhhhh crap, upside down head first, stomach to the sky, into repetative kart wheels and a concern for the next rock, tree or mogul. But what comes from this is that skiing and falling are one in the same. They go together. Inseperable. Just as in skiing. We learn to fall. Expect outcomes have control have purpose and thought. Skill blending. When I fall I try do things to determine and outcome. Suttle ones. Mostly it's to relax and gain orientation, sky and snow, and self arrest when appropriate.
So do I learn how to ski by falling. Sure I do. It's part of skiing, it is skiing.

I'm quoting myself I know. Weird. But it ties into cerebral vortex post. Meet an expert who says I don't know, I've never fallen.
Pushing the limits of one skill comes with failure. To recognize the outcome of failure and the success, if you will with making it through that imagined fall, and comparing it to the actual fall, I'm always suprised it's usually less severe then I imagined. Not always the case. Folks do get hurt. I have in the past as well. Broken bones, strained ligaments, sore muscles, but I learned. It's kinda a learning process. You learn to fall. If I took the falls today I took as a beginner, different outcomes. Falling at more intense levels comes with learning to ski more intense lines. It just works that way.
I hurt ligaments in my left knee last year. I fell. Mostly I belevie, because I wasn't paying attention, wasn't thinking( another thread) or maybe a little tree took my edge, not sure. You have heard me say before, 99% of my falls are over the handle bars. Forward. Because of that I usually do a flip. If you ski with me you will see it. :-). So same thing happened last season when I fell. But this time my left ski got kinda held up behind me. That's when I felt my knee take a hit. What did I learn from this. Pay attention always. Go with the fall with very little hesitation, and account for your limbs, to make sure they are all coming along for the ride. I don't think I have taken a fall since. Not sure. But I know going into this winter. I don't want to be off snow another 4 weeks. So I think I learned. You tell me.
post #372 of 418
I made a bunch of mogul skiing videos back in the day. Everyone who participated got a lot of enjoyment out of watching themselves, and the other skiers. The folks I worked with seemed less impressed until I showed them the crash reel.

Funny how that works. Human nature; everybody loves a train-wreck.
post #373 of 418

 

Originally Posted by tball View Post
 

^^^^ This thread needs more of that... let's see what fall pics we can dig up

 

^^ We don't know if he fell or recovered. Nor do we know if he would've learned more if he fell, ran into Mr. Green, or hit those Christmas trees on the side. We also don't know about what his dad told him about falling, what his instructor told him, or if he was traumatized as a kid by falling.
Clearly he's trying not to fall.

So, can you learn by not falling?? I think so.

Would he have learned more if he'd fallen? I think not. (Maybe he did fall there in which case reverse the question.)

 


Who knew "Falling" would be the new helmet thread?
Certainly helmet threads have fallen in their ability to evoke ire and indignation.
No one is willing to let themselves fall into the discussion.

 

Question, if falling is so important, then you'd want a helmet right? I mean you're going to fall, and probably hit your head at some point since you'll be falling.

Yet, the people who tend not to wear helmets tend to be among the better skiers.

So, they could learn faster if they wore a helmet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by james123 View Post

I look forward to skiing with all of these cool folks on epic. I think I can learn tons skiing a few days and listening and watching and trying. But. I'm also wondering if one falls and you ask did you learn anything. What the answer will be more immediately after a fall?

Few care about these discussions at gatherings it seems. Doubtful one can even remember who said what since you've got real names and screen names to deal with plus what people look like with ski gear on and then without helmets and goggles in the lodge. Plus there's lot's of skiing and falling to do.

 

I show beginners falling all the time. If they get out of control, grab your knees and then if you still can't turn out of it, bail out to the side. Seems a better option then long seconds of terror and mowing down a child, hitting an adult or launching into the condos.

The biggest issue is people will make a half hearted attempt and put their hands on their thighs. So we go over that when it happens.

Maybe someone has been traumatized by it, who knows.

 

Life's a bitch. Then you go to the beach, get stung by a jellyfish, bitten by a shark, sucked out by a rip tide, fall to the bottom of the sea or get hit by a falling plane.

Maybe easier to just fall down skiing.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-father-killed-daughter-critically-injured-beach-plane/story?id=24734696

post #374 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by MT Skull View Post

I made a bunch of mogul skiing videos back in the day. Everyone who participated got a lot of enjoyment out of watching themselves, and the other skiers. The folks I worked with seemed less impressed until I showed them the crash reel.

Funny how that works. Human nature; everybody loves a train-wreck.

 

Love that video.  So... who's gotten good at air in the bumps without falling a bunch?  Not me.  I gave up trying a decade (or two) ago.  I fell a ton, and I still suck.

 

Edit: And... @Tog that video is proof you don't need a helmet to fall :) 


Edited by tball - 7/28/14 at 8:32am
post #375 of 418
That's a fun video. Would like to see more of the cars on snowy roads crashing. In terms of this thread, most of those falls they were not essential to learning. They could have learned other ways. Does one really have to collide on the trail to learn to look?
post #376 of 418
Skull it is your suggestion that I am dishonest that elicited my response. In my world that is calling someone a liar. I still contend that if falling and how to fall as safely as possible was deemed to be an important part of every lesson, it would be included as a matter of company policy. If anything the waiver signed prior to the lesson and the disclaimer on the lift pass / day ticket already cover the inherent risks. It is something each and every one of you have agreed to if you ski at a resort here in the US.
The overstated stuff about never falling is pretty transparent, again if you read the thread I stated I fall. No one said skiers do not fall on occation. It is when they use falls as speed control, or repeat a movement error habitually that falls must be viewed as a poor substitute for good technique. Even at the newbie stage falling is not something taught. I also remember a fellow race coach stating plainly that recoveries are not something they teach. That does not imply recoveries do not happen any more than what I wrote about falls.
The bottom line here is falls are errors nothing more. Accepting that errors may happen does not mean we should be teaching them, or how to mitigate injuries from those errors.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/28/14 at 12:09pm
post #377 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Skull it is your suggestion that I am dishonest that elicited my response. In my world that is calling someone a liar. I still contend that if falling and how to fall as safely as possible was deemed to be an important part of every lesson, it would be included as a matter of company policy. Right because corporate interest is always the well being of the customer... If anything the waiver signed prior to the lesson and the disclaimer on the lift pass / day ticket already cover the inherent risks. It is something each and every one of you have agreed to if you ski at a resort here in the US. So, basically you argument is since customer sign a release of liability, and you can't be sued, there is no need to provide extra potentially useful information? Good to know.
The overstated stuff about never falling is pretty transparent, again if you read the thread I stated I fall. No one said skiers do not fall on occation. It is when they use falls as speed control, or repeat a movement error habitually that falls must be viewed as a poor substitute for good technique. Even at the newbie stage falling is not something taught. IT IS NOT TO FALL IT"S WHAT TO DO IN THE EVENT OF A FALL. YOU MIGHT KNOW INSTINCTIVELY HOW TO STOP YOURSELF FROM SLIDING, HOW TO BRACE FOR IMPACT. A BEGINNER DOESN'T!!! I also remember a fellow race coach stating plainly that recoveries are not something they teach. That does not imply recoveries do not happen any more than what I wrote about falls.
The bottom line here is falls are errors nothing more. Accepting that errors may happen does not mean we should be teaching them, still going strong on this aren't you? or how to mitigate injuries from those errorsRight, why provide somebody with basic do and don't when they can't sue you? After all it's not you who's getting hurt...
post #378 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 
If anything the waiver signed prior to the lesson and the disclaimer on the lift pass / day ticket already cover the inherent risks. It is something each and every one of you have agreed to if you ski at a resort .... Accepting that errors may happen does not mean we should be teaching them, or how to mitigate injuries from those errors.

Whatever happened to safety of the customer?- glad I was never a never- ever taking lessons in the US if this is the true attitude of the instruction industry.
post #379 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbob View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro 
If anything the waiver signed prior to the lesson and the disclaimer on the lift pass / day ticket already cover the inherent risks. It is something each and every one of you have agreed to if you ski at a resort .... Accepting that errors may happen does not mean we should be teaching them, or how to mitigate injuries from those errors.

Whatever happened to safety of the customer?- glad I was never a never- ever taking lessons in the US if this is the true attitude of the instruction industry

Yep.
Never Evers - ticking timebombs turned into IED's by both hapless and diabolical ski instructors.
Soon Homeland Security will be monitoring lessons.

Next up- "Why you should be suspicious of beach lifeguards. How to tell the ones that want you to get hit by lightning or bitten by a shark and the glee they take from stinging jelly-fish."
post #380 of 418

This is obviously an extreme example, but these guys have clearly embraced falling as part of the learning process for their brand on skiing. Looking at it another way, can you imagine trying to learn these skills whilst  eliminating the possibility of a fall, or branding it a gross mistake. Of course it helps to be young. Despite being at the higher end of the skiing skill set, the principal is the same; being overly careful will hinder your progress.

 

 

post #381 of 418
JASP,
My folks put me in ski school as a beginner, as well as taught me themselves. Way back in the dark ages (1969) they taught you to fall (hopefully safely) rather than fight it, or become a speeding projectile, putting others in danger. They also tried to teach you how to get up after a fall, with mixed results.

IMO, some fall/get back up strategy should be introduced in a first-ever lesson. After that, the skier should have a basic understanding of the mechanics of skiing, falling, and getting back up, making further "instruction" on falling unnecessary.

OTOH, my falls became much more spectacular as I advanced as a skier, but probably no amount of instruction would have spared me from the reality that a mistake at 50 mph is often more costly than one 5. I also don't think that instruction on falling after a certain level would be very productive. How do you instruct someone in the correct way to tomahawk down a mountain after gravity has betrayed them?

That waiver we all sign is nice and all, but many times it doesn't really mean squat if gross negligence can be proven, which has happened, and even when it can't, many resorts will settle to avoid negative publicity, or who knows why?

Anyway, I see no harm in instructing a first-ever to lay a hip down when things get to scary. Obviously the focus should be on not letting things get too scary, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way.

On a related note, I've got some other footage of skiers sliding down pretty much the entire length of Killington's Outer Limits, because they hadn't mastered getting their edges/feet below them to self arrest, one who had skied right out of their ill-fitting boot. Kind of comical to watch, but obviously people have died this way too.

It's a dangerous sport, and we shouldn't be trying to sugar-coat the dangers, or encouraging reckless skiing. At age 7 there was no one at Vernon Vally more balanced and graceful than my dad, and I learned much more from seeing him ski competently than I ever did watching him fall. I'm pretty sure he didn't really think I needed to be falling to prove I was trying, or improving; it's just something he used to say, kind of like "break a leg".

Next up; do you have to break a leg to act?
post #382 of 418

An episode of big-time falling was very helpful for me back when I was learning.

Way back when, Wildfire at Killington (a fairly boring black run) was a big challenge for me.  It was right at the limit of what I could handle, and I always flailed a bit.

One day my friend convinced me to give Outer Limits a try.

This was when Outer Limits was new, and they had no way to groom it.  It really did have the oft-quoted VW-sized bumps.

I fell on every single bump.

I think it took an hour to make it down.

This was a weekday, too, so no one else was on the run.

 

At the bottom, we dragged ourselves into the lodge.

There was a guy with a mountain man / old hippie / left over dead head vibe (I'm not sure what look he was going for) sitting by the window.  When we came in he said, completely deadpan, "nice run, man."  We laughed so hard we couldn't stand up.

 

But guess what.  After that Wildfire was easy, and by the end of the season I was skiing OL reasonably well.  And I think that heavy-duty fail played a big part in that.

post #383 of 418
Further to the "my ski school doesn't allow us/encourage us to teach falling mitigation" stuff does this apply to snowboarding too? Advice on falling onto tucked elbows rather than an outstretched wrist? Advice on tucking the head in on a heelside fall (particularly downslope) to mitigate against concussion/whiplash?
post #384 of 418

Should ski schools provide pillows for kids that fall asleep while skiing? Or, let them fall so they wake up?

We've got the helmet covered:

 

http://youtu.be/0mIgSaXsAKg

post #385 of 418

Nah they should warn parents that hipflasks' effects might vary at altitude and not to overdose with the Drambuie on the first slug.

post #386 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdf View Post

An episode of big-time falling was very helpful for me back when I was learning.
Way back when, Wildfire at Killington (a fairly boring black run) was a big challenge for me.  It was right at the limit of what I could handle, and I always flailed a bit.
One day my friend convinced me to give Outer Limits a try.
This was when Outer Limits was new, and they had no way to groom it.  It really did have the oft-quoted VW-sized bumps.
I fell on every single bump.
I think it took an hour to make it down.
This was a weekday, too, so no one else was on the run.

At the bottom, we dragged ourselves into the lodge.
There was a guy with a mountain man / old hippie / left over dead head vibe (I'm not sure what look he was going for) sitting by the window.  When we came in he said, completely deadpan, "nice run, man."  We laughed so hard we couldn't stand up.

But guess what.  After that Wildfire was easy, and by the end of the season I was skiing OL reasonably well.  And I think that heavy-duty fail played a big part in that.
It's all relative, right?

The first time I skied Over the Rainbow at Loveland I remember thinking, "if I take a tumble, I'm going to fall right onto I-70!" I didn't, and now if cover's good, it's one of my favorite runs off lift one. It usually sees less traffic than Cat's or A-bowl, so for me anyway, generally less work.

OTOH, IMO, OL without bumps is more dangerous than with. I have never seen someone slide for more than a bump or two before a bump stops them. It's only when it's groomed that the top-to-bottom death-slide possibility really exits. Your death-slide may vary.

On a related note; having spent the better part of a decade making laps on the Bear quad, lift one at Loveland feels like home. Different snow and terrain of course, but similar bang for the buck from an old fixed grip chair, that gets me back to the top about as fast as I'm able to recover and be ready for the next one.
post #387 of 418
So If you feel so strongly about this fellas, March right in to your favorite resort's office and demand they follow your suggestions. Overstating things here and thereby implying the resorts and their staff are not serving their customers is patently absurd.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 7/29/14 at 2:58pm
post #388 of 418

^^ I'm confused why any of us would really care.  Did I miss something?

post #389 of 418
I'm not sure. Are we supposed to go back and re-learn everything without the shadow of the possibility of a fall hanging over our heads?

Whew! Thanks JASP! I'm gonna go huck something HUDGE!!!
post #390 of 418
PS. I'll see your "patently absurd", and raise you a "willfully omitted".
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