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Do you have to fall to learn? - Page 9

post #241 of 418

Why are people even talking about Bode, Ted, and other racers?  The whole "if you aren't falling you aren't trying" catch phrase was never really intended to be about racing.

post #242 of 418
Jz, We don't agree but don't assume I don't understand your opinion just because I disagree with you. Nor do you know enough about me to assume I know nothing about pushing the envelope.

BTW, since you brought up Miller and the downhill in Sochi, his honesty about the bad visibility and how that affected his performance speaks volumes about how even at that level a bit of conservativeness occurs. He is still a very remarkable athlete that in hindsight offered an explanation for all of his first in training results not translating into winning the race. I for one respect him for being so open and honest with the media about that race. But my point is the "all out all the time" saying is a myth that is perpetuated by those who in an effort to help an athlete raise their game, overstate reality. Knowing when to push and when to not push is the key to success. Another great example is when a racer has a commanding lead after the first run and doesn't need to go all out in the second run. All they need to do is have a clean run to win and that is exactly how they ski that second run.
So shifting away from racing and back to the original topic of needing to fall to learn, it should be obvious to everyone that most learning occurs without the "need" to fall. Falls might occur while skiing but making them even a short term objective just seems incongruent with the overall goal of not falling. Learning to flirt with falling but not actually falling allows us to expand our range of possibilities but doesn't include the unnecessary risk of injury that is always present when we fall. It really is that simple.
post #243 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Weems used to say that the.best learners were cowboys and horse riders. So go figure.

That's because riders have really big instructors and have learned to humor them while still mostly getting what they want.

Jasp, when you say "you guys are the ones who don't get it," it comes across as condescending and superior.

Also, in your post about not addressing falls directly due to workplace and liability constraints, you are talking about teaching, not learning. This thread is about learning.

I surprise myself by agreeing with jzamp on all this. I think learning to push on a mountain bike - and therefore falling A LOT - was one of the main factors in knocking me off the intermediate plateau as a skier. (Though I don't fall inordinately often while skiing.)
post #244 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

, nor does falling represent any measure of all out effort. All it means is you made a gross error.

 

This is such a defensive attitude to take. It is full of the kind of fear that restricts learning. The assumption that falling equates to a gross error is how instructors inadvertently create terminal intermediates. This is an action sport and there are tangible rewards to the risk we take. In this instance, risk corresponds to allowing students to push their limits. And please don't expand that statement to the extreme. Safe incremental learning with zero risk tolerance is a a painfully slow was to progress. Not surprising that folks who participate in a sport that derives it's fun from speed, would resist lessons that hold them back.

 

There a couple of threads comparing ski instruction to race coaching. The former with it's focus on teaching speed control and the latter on allowing it to flourish. Perhaps the real difference in the two is the attitude to fear. Falling is not fun, but being on the edge of control is. This isn't yoga.

post #245 of 418
I think it's fine to push in an area where the fall trajectory is known. However, it needs to be pointed out that once you begin to fall, you lose control over your trajectory. No matter the steepness, if there are immovable objects or other skiers in the path of the fall trajectory, you are endangering yourself or others. So, go ahead, push yourself, just don't slam into me.
post #246 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I think it's fine to push in an area where the fall trajectory is known. However, it needs to be pointed out that once you begin to fall, you lose control over your trajectory. No matter the steepness, if there are immovable objects or other skiers in the path of the fall trajectory, you are endangering yourself or others. So, go ahead, push yourself, just don't slam into me.

Sure. No worries. But, again, the thread is about learning, not about concomitant miscellaneous stuff.
post #247 of 418
Fine. I don't think you have to fall to learn. I think you need to try new things to learn, but that doesn't necessarily mean you fall doing them. Whether you fall or not probably has more to do with athleticism, terrain, other skiers, etc. Notice I don't think the lack of fall teaches you anything either. You might just be more limber, have quicker reactions, more strength, more experience. It doesn't indicate you're not doing new things, only that you can recover.
post #248 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

"If you are not falling you are not trying"

 

I think is the word spoken by tons of people who simply do not know there is better way to learning, I am not saying that falling should be feared or frowned upon, but you can become a very high level skier with out a huge amounts of falls. 

 

I think most people who just "do" do not understand the process behind actually skill building. Ie the type of people who take their wedge turning kid down steep blues and blacks just because they can go down it. 

I think some here need to go back to the first post... 
This is what JM wanted to discuss... not the actual need to fall in order for the learning process to happen. 
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Jz, We don't agree but don't assume I don't understand your opinion just because I disagree with you. Nor do you know enough about me to assume I know nothing about pushing the envelope.

BTW, since you brought up Miller and the downhill in Sochi, his honesty about the bad visibility and how that affected his performance speaks volumes about how even at that level a bit of conservativeness occurs. He is still a very remarkable athlete that in hindsight offered an explanation for all of his first in training results not translating into winning the race. I for one respect him for being so open and honest with the media about that race. But my point is the "all out all the time" saying is a myth that is perpetuated by those who in an effort to help an athlete raise their game, overstate reality. Knowing when to push and when to not push is the key to success. Another great example is when a racer has a commanding lead after the first run and doesn't need to go all out in the second run. All they need to do is have a clean run to win and that is exactly how they ski that second run.
So shifting away from racing and back to the original topic of needing to fall to learn, it should be obvious to everyone that most learning occurs without the "need" to fall. Falls might occur while skiing but making them even a short term objective just seems incongruent with the overall goal of not falling. Learning to flirt with falling but not actually falling allows us to expand our range of possibilities but doesn't include the unnecessary risk of injury that is always present when we fall. It really is that simple.

as far as me assuming, well I can only base my ideas off of what people write. And if your arguments sound like words from someone who has not been an athlete that is not my problem.
BTW I wasn't talking about Sochi. Never even mentioned it. And I've already said that yes there is time for more conservative tactics but what cannot be conservative is the attitude. So you just restated what I had already said in 2 lines. Sometimes I feel like reading comprehension is low....
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzamp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

The myth of alway skiing aggressively (line and movements) ignores the all to real fact that even in competition there are times to be aggressive and times to be conservative. That line is always shifting as the mountain in front of you changes.
So bringing this back to learning, starting more conservative and grooving new moves is again the path the world's best practice. That may not be glamorous enough for some but I would strongly question their understanding of the learning process.

Rehearsal (preparation) meets situation (opportunity) and success happens. It is not an accident when people like Shiffren pull out a white pass recovery like she did in the Olympics.

I completely disagree. If we are talking about lines maybe, yes... there are times where a more conservative line yields better times, but if you are racing the attitude is always the same: PUSH.

If not, you risk not only to be slow but to hurt yourself. If there's a big jump, and hard turn, injected ice, whatever you must be able to commit 100% and believe that you will not crash. That comes from aggressiveness, and confidence.

there is a very big difference between skiing aggressively, pushing hard, and being "all out all the time". One implies staying right under your limit, the other being on the edge and sometimes over your limit.
But then again in order to understand this you need to know where your limit is ==> back to my first point.

post #249 of 418

The idea that falling is a learning tool might be driven by the idea that one can analyze what went wrong and thereby avoid making the same mistake later. I'm thinking that either we all make the same mistakes repeatedly, suggesting that we don't learn that much by falling, or that there are an infinite number of ways to screw up while skiing. Maybe it's a combination of both.

 

I know that falling can be a de-motivator. I know people who tried skiing once and never went back, because they couldn't handle falling.

 

My worst crash ever was the result of going faster than I had ever gone before. I don't think I've gone that fast since. If I'd had brakes instead of runaway straps, it would have resulted only in a long, long hike back up to retrieve my sticks, but since my yard sale went along with me for a hundred yards or so, I got mugged. Not wanting to repeat that experience has kept me from pushing that particular limit, in spite of the fact that brakes would prevent getting mugged.

 

It's not so much that falling helps teach you things; it's more that willingness to take a header now and then allows you to push your limits, so that you can learn and progress. When you reach the point where the anticipated pain of the faceplant exceeds the desire to achieve, progress stops, or at least slows to a crawl. 

post #250 of 418
Do movements change in DIRT when the objective is to fall? From the other end increasing the RoM, intensity, etc, until incipient loss of balance occurs, you are operating very near, or at that threshhold, not blowing by it. And you are experiencing repeated success without the crashing and higher risk of injury that crashing alway includes.
Which brings up the idea of mom and pop hearing the reason their child is injured is because the fall drill the coach insisted they do, created that injury. Their response would probably be to sue the coach, the club, and the organization sanctioning that sort of activity. So go ahead and teach falling as a so called method but make sure your personal liability insurance is in full force. I will pass on teaching such nonsense because it is hardly the safest and most efficacious way to explore where that incipient fall threshhold exist. And after all every successful recovery happens in that incipient fall zone, not beyond it. I would add Jz that after your first step your method would follow the very same pathway. Making that first step superfluous.
post #251 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Do movements change in DIRT when the objective is to fall? From the other end increasing the RoM, intensity, etc, until incipient loss of balance occurs, you are operating very near, or at that threshhold, not blowing by it. And you are experiencing repeated success without the crashing and higher risk of injury that crashing alway includes.
Which brings up the idea of mom and pop hearing the reason their child is injured is because the fall drill the coach insisted they do, created that injury. Their response would probably be to sue the coach, the club, and the organization sanctioning that sort of activity. So go ahead and teach falling as a so called method but make sure your personal liability insurance is in full force. I will pass on teaching such nonsense because it is hardly the safest and most efficacious way to explore where that incipient fall threshhold exist. And after all every successful recovery happens in that incipient fall zone, not beyond it. I would add Jz that after your first step your method would follow the very same pathway. Making that first step superfluous.

JASP, it seems you're being a bit contrary about this. The point of the thread wasn't to encourage falling, and Morrison's mention of "falling as a learning tool" is not about encouraging falling, and if anyone's talked about aiming to make students fall, it's been talked down pretty quick and turned into discussions of how much to push students. So if you want to make up falling drills, OK, but I think it's been well established in this thread that teaching falling isn't the point.

I'm not an instructor, but I've been reading with some interest, so I'll comment as long as I'm here.

It's theoretically possible that you can learn to ski without ever falling at all, but I challenge anyone to say they've done this. A good instructor might teach basic skills well enough that a gifted student might quickly attain enough control of speed and direction to minimize falls while learning, but I'll challenge you to find a single skier who never fell while learning, even if you limit it to lessons only.

The more interesting question, as far as I'm concerned, is what happens next--that is, what those falls come to mean to the skier. Do the instructor's or lesson-mate's reactions teach the student that a fall is a pointless failure? Do people laugh? Does the instructor become inattentive because he thinks the student isn't capable of learning, even if the inattention is unconscious, giving the student the impression that he's unable to learn skiing or that falling is shameful? Does the instructor talk about what led to the fall and how to get a better result next time? Or does he just blow off the fall, never talk about it, and leave the student to come to his own conclusions--which are likely to be that falling is humiliating and scary, stop enjoying sliding on snow for fear of falling, and walk away from the sport?

I think a student's fall is a fantastic opportunity for an instructor to be a model of how to respond constructively to failure. I've said this in the past, but I think a surprising number of beginning skiers don't know how to deal with failure in physical pursuits, especially public failure, so teaching from a fall means dealing with how to motivate a student to persevere. In my case, the best way to get me past a fall is to immediately start teaching again, quickly addressing what led to the fall, and backing things up to get me back on track. I'd think you'd want to let the student know that the fall wasn't the important thing; what matters is to figure out how to keep learning and advancing, and to learn from failures without obsessing about them.
post #252 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Do movements change in DIRT when the objective is to fall? From the other end increasing the RoM, intensity, etc, until incipient loss of balance occurs, you are operating very near, or at that threshhold, not blowing by it. And you are experiencing repeated success without the crashing and higher risk of injury that crashing alway includes.
Which brings up the idea of mom and pop hearing the reason their child is injured is because the fall drill the coach insisted they do, created that injury. Their response would probably be to sue the coach, the club, and the organization sanctioning that sort of activity. So go ahead and teach falling as a so called method but make sure your personal liability insurance is in full force. I will pass on teaching such nonsense because it is hardly the safest and most efficacious way to explore where that incipient fall threshhold exist. And after all every successful recovery happens in that incipient fall zone, not beyond it. I would add Jz that after your first step your method would follow the very same pathway. Making that first step superfluous.

I don't know what you have been reading but all that you just wrote is in no way advocated in this thread. 
At this point I don't even see why re writing the same things if you are not understanding them.
You have not understood the question in the first post, the replies in this thread, and the usefulness of the "falling experience".
All you bring up is litigation, liability, lawsuits, because some instructor/coach might force their students to fall, something that is in your mind only and no way near what myself and others are saying.
I suggest you go back and re read not just my post but all of them...

post #253 of 418

Early this summer I had a friend tell me what happened in her first lesson on snow.  She bought one of those first-timer packages for rentals and a group how-to-ski lesson.  She fell during that lesson, and she was the first student in her group to fall.  When she went down, she didn't know how to get up.  The instructor used that opportunity to show everyone how to get up.  She followed his instructions, and everyone watched and learned.  No problem, right?  

 

Not so good for her.  She found the experience humiliating.  She did not want anyone paying attention to her fall, she was ashamed she fell, she felt like a loser sitting there on the snow.  Something the instructor must have done prior to that fall must have led her to believe that beginning first-day skiers don't fall, or that not falling was a sign of success, or that they should try real hard to not fall.   

 

When the instructor used her as an example, that made her shame public.  The fact that her fall provided a great "teachable moment" to the group was irrelevant to her.  Years later when she told me that story she was still shaking with anger.  I bet the instructor had no idea this was going on in her head.

 

I hope instructors reading this thread do what they need to do to let their beginner students know it's ok to fall, and help them laugh when they do.  

post #254 of 418
Wow, LF, I think it's safe to say that just about any adult would have been embarrassed to have a group of strangers stand around and watch them flail around at their feet, most of them probably impatient to move on. Do instructors get information about how to deal with adult egos?
post #255 of 418
Almost every beginner lesson I've conducted over the last 45 years I've been asked, "How do I get up if I fall." My response: "When you fall, we'll go through the mechanics." If nobody asks, I tell them falling is like crawling before walking: Happens to us all. I usually use the first person who falls as the example for how to get back on the feet and on the skis. If they have been timid or expressed concerns about embarrassment, I will drop onto the snow so we're going through the process together. Usually, by the time of the first fall, we've been together long enough as a group doing things just in the boots and/or on a single ski that we're all comfortable with eachother and realize we're all in the same boat.

LF, did your friend continue to ski?
post #256 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Early this summer I had a friend tell me what happened in her first lesson on snow.  She bought one of those first-timer packages for rentals and a group how-to-ski lesson.  She fell during that lesson, and she was the first student in her group to fall.  When she went down, she didn't know how to get up.  The instructor used that opportunity to show everyone how to get up.  She followed his instructions, and everyone watched and learned.  No problem, right?  

 

Not so good for her.  She found the experience humiliating.  She did not want anyone paying attention to her fall, she was ashamed she fell, she felt like a loser sitting there on the snow.  Something the instructor must have done prior to that fall must have led her to believe that beginning first-day skiers don't fall, or that not falling was a sign of success, or that they should try real hard to not fall.   

 

When the instructor used her as an example, that made her shame public.  The fact that her fall provided a great "teachable moment" to the group was irrelevant to her.  Years later when she told me that story she was still shaking with anger.  I bet the instructor had no idea this was going on in her head.

 

I hope instructors reading this thread do what they need to do to let their beginner students know it's ok to fall, and help them laugh when they do.  

 

Hmm I was thinking in this thread that the answer was basicallly "no but it'll happen anyway" and I have quite a strong belief that people should "learn to fall" at the earliest opportunity. 

 

This story has me  a bit ambivalent - on one hand sympathy for the public "humiliation", on the other a bit of "what the heck did she think was going to happen given that most mass media portrayal of skiing features falling quite a bit", on balance armchair psychologist thinks it's something more complex than "instructor created an expectation that falling was shameful". 

 

That said in a ligitation lite world I'd start my fantasy ski instructor never ever lessons by systematically going round and pushing each student over to emphasise that it was no big deal.  

post #257 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Early this summer I had a friend tell me what happened in her first lesson on snow.  She bought one of those first-timer packages for rentals and a group how-to-ski lesson.  She fell during that lesson, and she was the first student in her group to fall.  When she went down, she didn't know how to get up.  The instructor used that opportunity to show everyone how to get up.  She followed his instructions, and everyone watched and learned.  No problem, right?  

 

Not so good for her.  She found the experience humiliating.  She did not want anyone paying attention to her fall, she was ashamed she fell, she felt like a loser sitting there on the snow.  Something the instructor must have done prior to that fall must have led her to believe that beginning first-day skiers don't fall, or that not falling was a sign of success, or that they should try real hard to not fall.   

 

When the instructor used her as an example, that made her shame public.  The fact that her fall provided a great "teachable moment" to the group was irrelevant to her.  Years later when she told me that story she was still shaking with anger.  I bet the instructor had no idea this was going on in her head.

 

I hope instructors reading this thread do what they need to do to let their beginner students know it's ok to fall, and help them laugh when they do.  

 

Interesting example.  I think it's important to bring levity to the whole goofy experience of sliding down a hill with sticks on your feet.  Teaching my daughter to ski, when she first fell I could tell she was on the fence or unsure about how to react.  I laughed with her, pointed out how the snow is relatively soft and it didn't even hurt.  So she bounced right back up with a smile and keeps at it.  After that, falls were no big deal.  Come to think of it, half of the time I fall I find myself laughing about it because of the stupid mistake I made or because I went a little bigger than I anticipated and falling in powder can be fun in that way that makes you feel like a kid again.  Unless it's really steep and you tomahawk - there's nothing funny about that.


Edited by JayT - 7/21/14 at 9:41am
post #258 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

  Unless it's really steep and you tomahawk - there's nothing funny about that.

 

I think even if you have a big non-major injury fall there is almost always a "thank f*** that wasn't wasn't worse" reaction that generates positive endorphins.  Even when I broke my tib plateau in a fall my main concern was i) how am I going to retrieve my ski from that gully it has run into and ii) this doesn't feel good - wonder if it'll be ok with icing a bit.

post #259 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Early this summer I had a friend tell me what happened in her first lesson on snow.  She bought one of those first-timer packages for rentals and a group how-to-ski lesson.  She fell during that lesson, and she was the first student in her group to fall.  When she went down, she didn't know how to get up.  The instructor used that opportunity to show everyone how to get up.  She followed his instructions, and everyone watched and learned.  No problem, right?  

Not so good for her.  She found the experience humiliating.  She did not want anyone paying attention to her fall, she was ashamed she fell, she felt like a loser sitting there on the snow.  Something the instructor must have done prior to that fall must have led her to believe that beginning first-day skiers don't fall, or that not falling was a sign of success, or that they should try real hard to not fall.   

When the instructor used her as an example, that made her shame public.  The fact that her fall provided a great "teachable moment" to the group was irrelevant to her.  Years later when she told me that story she was still shaking with anger.  I bet the instructor had no idea this was going on in her head.

I hope instructors reading this thread do what they need to do to let their beginner students know it's ok to fall, and help them laugh when they do.  

I had it worse years ago. I couldn't hold a traverse, took off like I was tobogganing, ended up coming to rest on the middle of a class of Austrian middle schoolers. Much hilarity and discussion. Especially when I couldn't get up. And it got filmed, black and white film. Later was used as part of a Our Trip movie for comedy interlude. I didn't know it was me because of the black and white, it was just some girl's butt. Got laughed at again. So, no, falling is not high on my list.
post #260 of 418
Humiliated from falling in a group. Holy Ssst. Really. Get over oneself. It's called fun. Jeezus crts. How is it that Vonn can ski with a torn whatever in her knee, go down time and time again get up tearing her knee over and over, no one laughed. She was a heroine. But this regular first timer falls and it not on a national or international stage. And it's humiliating to her. Wow. I'm just shocked. Maybe it's just hard core recreational athletes and WC folks who brush it off and move on. Oh. And let's watch film loops of it over and over again as a training exercise. For the rest of the entire world. Oh but your so special because you fell and it's a private moment yikes.
I'm done. Sorry. I dont mean to offend :-)
post #261 of 418
Jz check out post 218 where you advocate exceeding your limit and you measure it by falling. Notice all the equal signs? So which is it, your story keeps changing. Maybe it is your memory that needs improvement my friend, not my comprehension of what you write.
Beyond that you and I describe incipient falling as an area where learning occurs. And to whomever said this thread is about learning, the question is does someone help you or do you just do that in solitude? If someone helps you they are teaching. The if you do not fall you are not trying /learning usually comes from that someone.
post #262 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by james123 View Post

Humiliated from falling in a group. Holy Ssst. Really. Get over oneself. It's called fun. Jeezus crts. How is it that Vonn can ski with a torn whatever in her knee, go down time and time again get up tearing her knee over and over, no one laughed. She was a heroine. But this regular first timer falls and it not on a national or international stage. And it's humiliating to her. Wow. I'm just shocked. Maybe it's just hard core recreational athletes and WC folks who brush it off and move on. Oh. And let's watch film loops of it over and over again as a training exercise. For the rest of the entire world. Oh but your so special because you fell and it's a private moment yikes.
I'm done. Sorry. I dont mean to offend :-)

Nevertheless, you are offensive. The result from that week, OVER FORTY YEARS AGO, is that I HATED skiing. Hated it. Apparently something happened and skiing got a second chance. But what caused the change is not the point. The point is, beginners can be turned off of skiing by the falling. Probably not a big deal for those involved in other athletic activities, but can be a huge deal for some.

I don't fall much. And when I do, I've learned to just take the darned skis off. That's what works for me. But I'm out there in all weather, day after day, year after year. So, get over your idea that you have ANY right to judge others.
post #263 of 418
I fall on and off. Usually hard ugly and with seconds in the air to day dream where is the ground as I'm looking up at the sky. I have given up embarrassment shame or whatever. We all do it. Go to the terrain park. Want to see about 60% of folks fall. IMHO fallling is skiing skiing is falling. It's one in the same. It's the sport itself. Have I learned a lot about falling over the years yup. The near missed helped tons too. And the funky times I'm just skiing some strange form a bump or two. I have learned to keep skiing find my center and just regroup. I usually pull things back together and ski on. Why is skiing such a see me ski sport ?? Ski in your own head. Not in the eyes of others so they can watch you. Thanks
post #264 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Nevertheless, you are offensive. The result from that week, OVER FORTY YEARS AGO, is that I HATED skiing. Hated it. Apparently something happened and skiing got a second chance. But what caused the change is not the point. The point is, beginners can be turned off of skiing by the falling. Probably not a big deal for those involved in other athletic activities, but can be a huge deal for some.

I don't fall much. And when I do, I've learned to just take the darned skis off. That's what works for me. But I'm out there in all weather, day after day, year after year. So, get over your idea that you have ANY right to judge others.
I'm glad your now skiing. Enjoy.
post #265 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by james123 View Post

Humiliated from falling in a group. Holy Ssst. Really. Get over oneself. It's called fun. Jeezus crts. How is it that Vonn can ski with a torn whatever in her knee, go down time and time again get up tearing her knee over and over, no one laughed. She was a heroine. But this regular first timer falls and it not on a national or international stage. And it's humiliating to her. Wow. I'm just shocked. Maybe it's just hard core recreational athletes and WC folks who brush it off and move on. Oh. And let's watch film loops of it over and over again as a training exercise. For the rest of the entire world. Oh but your so special because you fell and it's a private moment yikes.
I'm done. Sorry. I dont mean to offend :-)

 

James, I get your enthusiasm about skiing and applaud it.  But please do not ever consider becoming an instructor.

Oh, and do not try to teach your significant other to ski.

post #266 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

James, I get your enthusiasm about skiing and applaud it.  But please do not ever consider becoming an instructor.
Oh, and do not try to teach your significant other to ski.
I'm level 3 PSIA.
Don't teach anymore. No plans to return. To boring.
post #267 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Jz check out post 218 where you advocate exceeding your limit and you measure it by falling. Notice all the equal signs? So which is it, your story keeps changing. Maybe it is your memory that needs improvement my friend, not my comprehension of what you write.
Beyond that you and I describe incipient falling as an area where learning occurs. And to whomever said this thread is about learning, the question is does someone help you or do you just do that in solitude? If someone helps you they are teaching. The if you do not fall you are not trying /learning usually comes from that someone.
 

Here it is...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by jzamp View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Fall / no fall is not a great measure of learning at any level. If anything habitual falls suggest a lack of learning. Even when trying a new move. Wanna learn to fall? Lean over until gravity does it's thing. Now after you land tell me what you learned. To keep you Com over your BoS?

i'm sorry but that is off the mark.

The idea is that falling = (equals) going over the limit  ​isn't this true? ==> now you know where the limit is you just went over it... ==> next time you can push it without braking it/correct the mistake that made you go over. because you can rely on your falling experience, and therefore you are aware of just how far you can go. 
Without ever going over your limit, how do you know you are even close to it?

 

nothing to do with how much/well you are learning, it's what happens next that is important. IT IS NOT A MEASURE OF YOUR LEARNING PROCESS. RATHER A USEFUL EVENT THAT HELPS YOU UNDERSTAND YOUR LIMITS AND THEREFORE HELP YOU EITHER STAYING WITHIN THEM OR PUSHING TO IMPROVE SAID LIMIT.
As for your example i would have learned how much i am able to lean without falling.  

So for you falling is evidence of not learning (which is only part of the story because the question should be what is causing the falls...) and I am saying falling is a very useful experience (given that there is the support and knowledge to understand it like I've said in the MotoGP example)
 

and this is what you are saying

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Do movements change in DIRT when the objective is to fall? From the other end increasing the RoM, intensity, etc, until incipient loss of balance occurs, you are operating very near, or at that threshhold, not blowing by it. And you are experiencing repeated success without the crashing and higher risk of injury that crashing alway includes.
Which brings up the idea of mom and pop hearing the reason their child is injured is because the fall drill the coach insisted they do, created that injury. Their response would probably be to sue the coach, the club, and the organization sanctioning that sort of activity. So go ahead and teach falling as a so called method but make sure your personal liability insurance is in full force. I will pass on teaching such nonsense because it is hardly the safest and most efficacious way to explore where that incipient fall threshhold exist. And after all every successful recovery happens in that incipient fall zone, not beyond it. I would add Jz that after your first step your method would follow the very same pathway. Making that first step superfluous.

 

You insist on some abstract falling drill (I think you see something like the coach telling his athletes to tuck down the slope and then throw themselves on the ground or something) that was never part of the discussion. I have stressed the importance of knowing HOW TO FALL and that it should be thought to beginner just as much as knowing HOW TO GET UP, something that might have been useful in the situation of the lady who felt embarrassed by falling...
There are many ways to tech how to fall safely, if you can't see this it is not my problem. But certainly it is not by risking the health of the students.

Than you talk about lawsuits, maybe you are particularly sensitive to the subject, but it has nothing to do with the subject... again.

And finally I am advocating for the need to KNOW HOW TO FALL and therefore teach WHAT TO DO AND WHAT NOT TO DO. I am not saying one should teach students TO FALL!

I hope this helps you.
post #268 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by james123 View Post

Humiliated from falling in a group. Holy Ssst. Really. Get over oneself. It's called fun. Jeezus crts. How is it that Vonn can ski with a torn whatever in her knee, go down time and time again get up tearing her knee over and over, no one laughed. She was a heroine. But this regular first timer falls and it not on a national or international stage. And it's humiliating to her. Wow. I'm just shocked. Maybe it's just hard core recreational athletes and WC folks who brush it off and move on. Oh. And let's watch film loops of it over and over again as a training exercise. For the rest of the entire world. Oh but your so special because you fell and it's a private moment yikes.
I'm done. Sorry. I dont mean to offend :-)

Nevertheless, you are offensive. The result from that week, OVER FORTY YEARS AGO, is that I HATED skiing. Hated it. Apparently something happened and skiing got a second chance. But what caused the change is not the point. The point is, beginners can be turned off of skiing by the falling. Probably not a big deal for those involved in other athletic activities, but can be a huge deal for some.

I don't fall much. And when I do, I've learned to just take the darned skis off. That's what works for me. But I'm out there in all weather, day after day, year after year. So, get over your idea that you have ANY right to judge others.

If it was truly you that suffered from that, I'd say I am sorry you had to have such a bad experience. I think that had the instructor talked about falling, what it means, and what do we do in that situation it would have been a much better experience for you and the other skiers.
 

I must also say that james123 does have a point. As much as it sucks to have an humiliating experience, millions of others have fallen and suffered no psychological damage. (ok I'm leaving out catastrophic incidents) and the problem is more about you than about how the instructor handled it. 

post #269 of 418
No ones talking about psychological damage. We're talking about turning people off skiing. I would agree that falling should be addressed in the proper context. Clearly it wasn't, but this was 1971.
post #270 of 418
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

No ones talking about psychological damage. We're talking about turning people off skiing. I would agree that falling should be addressed in the proper context. Clearly it wasn't, but this was 1971.

If an event was traumatizing enough to make you hate the activity I would argue it there was some damage, I know I used a strong word... 
Anyway, I don't know if the fact that it happened 40 years ago makes a difference. Even today I don't think many ski instructors discuss falling with their students. 

 

If anything is to be taken away from this thread I think it should be that falling is part of skiing, it is a normal thing and should not be feared or taken as a sign of inability to perform/inferiority. Falling should be used a teaching tool, explaining why it happened, how to avoid it and, for advanced skiers, how to use the information to push even harder.

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