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Had an interesting mechanical on a training ride today: Busted a rear spoke! Rare? - Page 2

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super D View Post
 

Just came home with a pair of Ksyrium Elite S wheels. Taking the Yksium tires off to save as spares and will put my Gatorskins on (I'm fine sacrificing some lightness for avoiding flats). 

 

Will post impressions in a couple of days. 

 

My family's out of town so I'm moving the breakfast table aside, setting up my workstand and turning my kitchen into a bike shop tonight. 

 

Don't tell my wife! :D

Nice wheelset.  Should serve you well for many many miles.   Kinda hard to go back to the basement after a kitchen set up.   I see a basement overhaul in your future.  :)

post #32 of 57

I used to break spokes all the time, on 36 spoke wheels.   Then DT came out with their stainless spokes, copied fairly well by wheelsmith, and I never broke another.   Spokes dropped to 32, 28, 24, still no breaks.   Then all these weird spokes came out, flat spokes, spokes of unknown origin with oem wheels etc, and once again, they break.

 

I respoked a 24 (28?) spoke wheel last year after 3 OEM flat black spokes popped, with round TD 14-15-14 spokes.  End of problem.

post #33 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

...Good luck with your new wheels! They should work well for you - just be sure to keep up with preventive maintenance.

 

 

* - 2014 is not an average year, as I'm sidelined after breaking my femur in a skiing accident on January 11. I'm able to ride a recumbent trainer as of now, which is a nice start, but I'll be lucky to hit 2,500 miles given the pace of recovery.

 

Thank you for sharing all of that info, very helpful. It's funny, I don't remember having to know so much about wheels in the past. Seemed simpler years ago; there were basic aluminum, aero aluminum, some pro level Mavics, and I don't remember much else. Now I have to study up among a couple dozen options and choose wisely. 

 

I opted for the Ksyrium Elite S wheels because they seemed to be a great combo of tough, solid performance, pretty light weight, and within an acceptable price range that doesn't hurt.

 

Went for a 45-miler today and had a simply great day. Great weather, fun ride, PR'd 17 segments on my route on Strava, and the wheels were flawless. Responsive, and they seem to have excellent contact and feel with the brakes. These wheels are noticeably stiffer than the Ritcheys, so I aired down to 105 front and rear and it was quite reasonable. 

 

Nice to be able to put wheel worries behind me, and just focus on having fun for a while. :)


Edited by Super D - 4/5/14 at 7:52pm
post #34 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
 

Nice wheelset.  Should serve you well for many many miles.   Kinda hard to go back to the basement after a kitchen set up.   I see a basement overhaul in your future.  :)

 

I'll have to settle for garage overhaul, there aren't any damned basements here in San Diego, sucks in that dept. I loved having one back East. 

post #35 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
 

I used to break spokes all the time, on 36 spoke wheels.   Then DT came out with their stainless spokes, copied fairly well by wheelsmith, and I never broke another.   Spokes dropped to 32, 28, 24, still no breaks.   Then all these weird spokes came out, flat spokes, spokes of unknown origin with oem wheels etc, and once again, they break.

 

I respoked a 24 (28?) spoke wheel last year after 3 OEM flat black spokes popped, with round TD 14-15-14 spokes.  End of problem.

 

I was about to do that with the Ritchey, but figured if I do one, I really should do both...and then it'd be good before throwing money at the wheels to think about whether it might just be better to get a tougher, better wheel (the Ritcheys are pretty low priced, so it got me thinking).

 

I actually liked the way the Ritcheys rode, just didn't seem to make sense to drop more dough on them. Might keep them as spares, or sell 'em and put the money into something else. (Probably will do that.)


Edited by Super D - 4/5/14 at 7:19pm
post #36 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super D View Post
 

 

....Responsive, and they seem to have excellent contact and feel with the brakes. These wheels are noticeably stiffer than the Ritcheys, so I aired down to 105 front and rear and it was quite reasonable. 

 

Nice to be able to put wheel worries behind me, and just focus on having fun for a while. :)

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board. I was a 23mm rider for years, and switched to 25mm Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 Race tires in mid-2012. The difference in ride quality - faster pace, smoother ride, better grip in the corners during races - was marked. For big guys like us, going 25mm is really a no-brainer, and worth it.

 

2. Lower your tire pressure, as a rule. Sure, pumping 23 or 25mm rubber to the limit seems faster, but it isn't, as your wheels get deflected more by roughness in the road - i.e. your momentum is being shot all over the place, rather than in the direction you wish to go. I ran my 23mm tires at 105-110psi most of the time, and suffered no consequences from the change. On the 25mm tires, the highest I'll go is 105psi - most of the time I'm at 90 or lower. And my front tire is always running lower pressure than the rear (between 5 and 10psi).

 

Either one - or, preferably, both - of these changes will really bring about positive changes on your rides.

 

Ride on! :) 

post #37 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board. I was a 23mm rider for years, and switched to 25mm Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 Race tires in mid-2012. The difference in ride quality - faster pace, smoother ride, better grip in the corners during races - was marked. For big guys like us, going 25mm is really a no-brainer, and worth it.

 

2. Lower your tire pressure, as a rule. Sure, pumping 23 or 25mm rubber to the limit seems faster, but it isn't, as your wheels get deflected more by roughness in the road - i.e. your momentum is being shot all over the place, rather than in the direction you wish to go. I ran my 23mm tires at 105-110psi most of the time, and suffered no consequences from the change. On the 25mm tires, the highest I'll go is 105psi - most of the time I'm at 90 or lower. And my front tire is always running lower pressure than the rear (between 5 and 10psi).

 

Either one - or, preferably, both - of these changes will really bring about positive changes on your rides.

 

Ride on! :) 

 

Or better still, do all of that and get rid of the tubes.

post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

Or better still, do all of that and get rid of the tubes.

 

Still not sold on road tubeless, at least for the gravel grinder rides. I've had too many friends suffer slashes on back roads. I know you can throw in a tube, but it's a messy prospect. So I'll stick with my standard clinchers for now. :)

 

Granted, the ride quality on tubeless is quite fine, and I know that some pro teams are using them now. But they have support staff for wheel changes and whatnot. ;)

post #39 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Still not sold on road tubeless, at least for the gravel grinder rides. I've had too many friends suffer slashes on back roads. I know you can throw in a tube, but it's a messy prospect. So I'll stick with my standard clinchers for now. :)

 

Granted, the ride quality on tubeless is quite fine, and I know that some pro teams are using them now. But they have support staff for wheel changes and whatnot. ;)

 

The road I live on has sharp gravel. When I took delivery of my Lemond it had Bontrager Race X-Lite tires (Contis). I double flatted a mile from my house on the first ride. My Hutchinsons have been fine for years. They now have 28c tires too that look even better suited for dirt/gravel.

post #40 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board. I was a 23mm rider for years, and switched to 25mm Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 Race tires in mid-2012. The difference in ride quality - faster pace, smoother ride, better grip in the corners during races - was marked. For big guys like us, going 25mm is really a no-brainer, and worth it.

 

2. Lower your tire pressure, as a rule. Sure, pumping 23 or 25mm rubber to the limit seems faster, but it isn't, as your wheels get deflected more by roughness in the road - i.e. your momentum is being shot all over the place, rather than in the direction you wish to go. I ran my 23mm tires at 105-110psi most of the time, and suffered no consequences from the change. On the 25mm tires, the highest I'll go is 105psi - most of the time I'm at 90 or lower. And my front tire is always running lower pressure than the rear (between 5 and 10psi).

 

Either one - or, preferably, both - of these changes will really bring about positive changes on your rides.

 

Ride on! :) 

 

Thank you. Interesting...So, I have a few questions here, so I can understand.

 

Theoretically, less rubber on the road leads to lower rolling friction. How does a wider tire lead to higher pace, all other factors equal (same tire model and pressure)? This isn't questioning your perspective or experiences, btw, I'm just trying to get my head around going with a wider tire, and that resulting in higher speed given the same output. If I'm rolling on a smooth road, wouldn't the narrower tire, run at the same tire pressure, have lower rolling friction and result in a longer runout or higher speed roll given the same output from the rider?

 

Grip in corners, I definitely understand. Larger contact patch means greater friction = better grip. So dropping pressure gives better purchase on the terrain. I've done a little bit of wheeling, and aired down to increase surface area contact, resulting in better grip (in addition to better absorption, as the lower pressure effectively lowers spring rate).

 

Also I understand the deflection aspect of lower air pressure in the tires. A parallel can be drawn to race cars. On rougher tracks, smart racers and crews will switch to lower rate springs, so the compliance allows the tires to be in contact with the surface more often, which affords better acceleration from a dead stop, braking and cornering. 

 

With race cars, you typically sacrifice rolling friction for handling and braking in tire compound choices, but it just has to be done. You don't make a turn or a braking zone, and your day will be over quickly. 

 

So what I'm getting at is....my admittedly inexperienced cycling tire brain would lead me to choose a larger contact patch (lower pressures and wider tires) for winding terrain and/or rougher surfaces, and a smaller contact patch (higher pressures and narrower tires) for less winding terrain and smoother surfaces. 

 

In my case, road conditions are generally pretty good here (not a lot of weather, and rarely drops to freezing, so the pavement consistency tends to have longevity). That said, it would seem to me that a balance of smaller contact patch, while tuning comfort with air pressure would be a decent approach. 

 

Is this crazy talk? :)   I could be totally wrong here, I'm just trying to apply what I know from my auto racing experiences. 

 

Once I wear out the 23s I'm on, I'm definitely up for trying 25s, and I could expect greater comfort, cornering prowess and even braking....but how could they be faster?

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It's interesting learning not only about all the new gear, but tires too. Just like in auto racing, they can make one of the largest improvements in performance of any element on the vehicle.

post #41 of 57

I switched to 25c several years ago----I thought it was just part of the natural progression of my skis, my tires and my body getting a bit fatter and softer every year.

 

Now it is in fashion.....for good reason, I think. 

post #42 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by newfydog View Post
 

I switched to 25c several years ago----I thought it was just part of the natural progression of my skis, my tires and my body getting a bit fatter and softer every year.

 

Now it is in fashion.....for good reason, I think. 

 

I'm saying no to the natural progression! :)

post #43 of 57
I have rode 23, 25, and 28 tires. Currently have 23s on one bike and 28s on the other. Might try 25s again when the 23s wear out but not sure. I do feel a difference whether it is in my head or not. The thing everyone says is that wider tires are faster at the same pressure, but that's the thing, you don't ride them at the same pressure.

The wheels you got come highly recommended. I went with custom after having problems with repeated broken spokes, but Mavics were a strong consideration.

Sent from my GT-P5210 using Tapatalk
post #44 of 57
post #45 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:

 

Wow. Holy shnikees. You learn something new every day! :)

 

Thank you

post #46 of 57
Thread Starter 

@songfta  KevinF just posted a link explaining what you told me, thanks to you both. I'm intrigued now. Going to switch out my tires to 25's.


Edited by Super D - 4/7/14 at 3:51pm
post #47 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board. I was a 23mm rider for years, and switched to 25mm Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 Race tires in mid-2012. The difference in ride quality - faster pace, smoother ride, better grip in the corners during races - was marked. For big guys like us, going 25mm is really a no-brainer, and worth it.

 

...

 

So I'm definitely switching to a wider tire...but what's just right, and what's too wide? Would 28s be faster and have better grip then 25s? Or does 28 add too much rotating mass and rotational inertia, so as to make accelerating and climbing tougher, and braking worse than the 25s? I wonder if anyone's done tests between them?

 

And what about the aerodynamics? Does a larger tire like a 28 start to add more aerodynamic drag, such that over a long distance, it'd detrimental?

 

Now you've gotten me very curious. 

 

I thought I was done shopping for parts, dammit! :D

post #48 of 57
Thread Starter 

Here's another interesting article (and accompanying comments) supporting the wider tire advantages:

 

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/06/13/bicycle-quarterly-performance-of-tires/

post #49 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super D View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board. I was a 23mm rider for years, and switched to 25mm Conti 4000S and Michelin Pro4 Race tires in mid-2012. The difference in ride quality - faster pace, smoother ride, better grip in the corners during races - was marked. For big guys like us, going 25mm is really a no-brainer, and worth it.

 

...

 

So I'm definitely switching to a wider tire...but what's just right, and what's too wide? Would 28s be faster and have better grip then 25s? Or does 28 add too much rotating mass and rotational inertia, so as to make accelerating and climbing tougher, and braking worse than the 25s? I wonder if anyone's done tests between them?

 

And what about the aerodynamics? Does a larger tire like a 28 start to add more aerodynamic drag, such that over a long distance, it'd detrimental?

 

Now you've gotten me very curious. 

 

I thought I was done shopping for parts, dammit! :D


I have one bike with 23s and one with 28s. I definitely would not say the 28s are faster. Comfy, secure. Not faster L.

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post #50 of 57
Contact patch and tire mechanics will be affected by rim width. 28 on 19 rim has implications. 19 on a 28 rim doesn't work no matter how you pump it. smile.gif
post #51 of 57
Note that one companies 25 might be another's 23, so it's best to compare sizes across the same brand.
post #52 of 57
Thread Starter 

I just started a new thread on tire choices. Linky in the opening post shows the difference in width even in the same brand (Michelin P4SC vs P4SCC). Interesting...

post #53 of 57

Fascinating background reading.

 

I will try the Grand Bois tires on my next tire change,

post #54 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by songfta View Post
 

 

Two things that'll make your rides even better:

 

1. Switch to 25mm tires across the board...

 

Just wanted you to know, I took your advice, and just ordered myself a set of Conti GP 4000s II's in 700x25. 

 

Can't wait to get them. Feels like when I was a little kid, and came home with new tennies...I couldn't wait to run around in them. :D

 

Okay, I admit it. I'm completely nuts. This is silly. I'm caught up looking at rolling resistance charts now, when I should be working.

 

You're all enablers! :p

post #55 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super D View Post
 

 

Just wanted you to know, I took your advice, and just ordered myself a set of Conti GP 4000s II's in 700x25. 

 

Can't wait to get them. Feels like when I was a little kid, and came home with new tennies...I couldn't wait to run around in them. :D

 

Okay, I admit it. I'm completely nuts. This is silly. I'm caught up looking at rolling resistance charts now, when I should be working.

 

You're all enablers! :p

You are going a bit over the top - enjoy!

 

Do measure carefully if you get a yearning for 28s.  Consider your rim width (inside) and the clearance between your chainstays.  Only recently have "race frames" been opened up in that area to accommodate wider rim/tire combinations.  

 

Think you said you have an Addict.  For reference - my 700x23 GP4s (inflated) measure 24.4 on 14mm (ID)/19mm (OD) rims.  My CR1 frameset has 30.1mm of clearance.  Your Addict might be in the same ballpark.  

post #56 of 57
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by medmarkco View Post
 

You are going a bit over the top - enjoy!

 

Do measure carefully if you get a yearning for 28s.  Consider your rim width (inside) and the clearance between your chainstays.  Only recently have "race frames" been opened up in that area to accommodate wider rim/tire combinations.  

 

Think you said you have an Addict.  For reference - my 700x23 GP4s (inflated) measure 24.4 on 14mm (ID)/19mm (OD) rims.  My CR1 frameset has 30.1mm of clearance.  Your Addict might be in the same ballpark.  

 

Yep, smart. The clearance is fairly snug on this Addict. Will be interesting to see how the 25s fit. There doesn't seem to be width consistency across brands, or even within brands, regardless of the size printed on the sidewall, so I'll just hope these fit. :)

post #57 of 57
Thread Starter 

Got my Conti GP4000s II's (25c) on last night, went riding this morning. Tires were great, and unless I was imagining it, the extra width felt a little more comfortable than my 23's. 

 

Got 22 segment PR's on my Strava, so that's a pretty decent proof of concept. :)

 

Thanks for the advice guys, I hadn't thought about going to 25's at all until @songfta recommended it and others added their knowledge too. Very helpful! :beercheer:

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