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Some thoughts on the Wedge... - Page 2

post #31 of 53
He should check his tracks, because I can clearly see the flat sections in between my turns. Of course, a 90mm underfoot ski will be more obvious than with a 70mm ski, but you should be able to see it.
You can't turn your little toe edge into your big toe edge without flattening the ski. Since 90% of your turn is set up in transition its kind of important.
post #32 of 53

I'm sure he knows that. It's a bit like when we went to shaped short slalom skis. "They're always on edge or making a long turn." - now we're used to it, from straights it was "oh what a pain I just want to go straight on this cat track."

I don't get what point voughn was trying to make with the flat thing?

Knowing how to flatten a ski is a good thing. Many, many, many intermediates are not good at it. As in they can't side slip .

post #33 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

I'm sure he knows that. It's a bit like when we went to shaped short slalom skis. "They're always on edge or making a long turn." - now we're used to it, from straights it was "oh what a pain I just want to go straight on this cat track."

I don't get what point voughn was trying to make with the flat thing?

Knowing how to flatten a ski is a good thing. Many, many, many intermediates are not good at it. As in they can't side slip .

My point, which I clearly did a horrible job expressing, was that new skiers should be taught to tip the ski to make it turn instead of trying to flatten the ski to make a turn. When I learned the wedge we skied flat then applied a lot of pressure on the new ski to make it turn. 

post #34 of 53

If the movements are simultaneous within both feet (as they should be) rather than sequential, then the ski edges will go from 2 edges on snow to 4 edges to 2 edges.  I know that he is talking about a single, fluid movement and that is what it should be.  Nonetheless, however briefly, both skis will be flat on the snow.

post #35 of 53

Those lessons were part of set.  In the first lesson all we did was the wedge.  I'm pretty sure we didn't do any tipping while in the wedge.  We traversed the run in a wedge and we would push down hard on the new downhill ski to force the turn.  It was a group lesson with three other adults.  All of us had skied before and had taken lessons there before.  That lesson sucked.  The next lesson we started tipping and doing mostly garland turns.  It was after that lesson when we spent most of the lesson skiing on a tipped edge that I asked when does he ever ski on a flat ski.  To me the wedge lesson seemed useless because we did almost nothing in that lesson that transferred to the next lesson.  The part that did  transfer was he wanted us to push down hard on the new downhill ski during the turn.

post #36 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by voghan View Post
 

Those lessons were part of set.  In the first lesson all we did was the wedge.  I'm pretty sure we didn't do any tipping while in the wedge.  We traversed the run in a wedge and we would push down hard on the new downhill ski to force the turn.  It was a group lesson with three other adults.  All of us had skied before and had taken lessons there before.  That lesson sucked.  The next lesson we started tipping and doing mostly garland turns.  It was after that lesson when we spent most of the lesson skiing on a tipped edge that I asked when does he ever ski on a flat ski.  To me the wedge lesson seemed useless because we did almost nothing in that lesson that transferred to the next lesson.  The part that did  transfer was he wanted us to push down hard on the new downhill ski during the turn.

Well that's unfortunate. That's exactly what should not be taught. However, it works. It just leads to bad habits.

 

Honestly, you've got everything backwards.

The tipping you so desire.....the key is tipping the inside foot. (old outside/new inside). Flattening, releasing the turn, then continuing to tip. The outside will follow. You must allow the body to go towards the inside of the new turn. Downhill. This is slight in low level turns and progressively larger for higher speed more dynamic turns.

 

If you start with the outside the inside will not follow. You'll be blocked or left with an A-frame.

 

The above is true even though the outside ski does the work of the turn.

 

Balance on the outside ski and pressure will build there. No need to push. That's a bad habit that goes right up the chain until you wonder why skiing soft snow is so hard.

post #37 of 53
Well, I don't plan on going back there for lessons. They are close to where I live do its convenient for lessons but not where I ski. The place I ski at has gone PMTS so I'm going to give them a try.
post #38 of 53

voghan, please report back how that works out for you.

post #39 of 53

Voghan, seriously, do report back.  

post #40 of 53
Tipping begins with untipping.
post #41 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by habacomike View Post
 

Ok, so I'm new instructor with a Level 1 cert and little training -- a late hire at Breck, so got thrown into the mix without a lot of training to move folk along.  Many of my level 1 students have a tough time getting a gliding wedge turn.  I've tried to avoid using terms or movements that will hold them back later in their progression (like stand on the outside ski), so my description of the wedge turn is to flatten the downhill ski while rotating the uphill (or outside) ski.  About half the students get it.  The others spend a lot of time trying to pick up the rotary movements.  Sometimes it's an issue of fore-aft balance, sometimes it's a leaning problem, but I struggle to help them find the movement pattern that works.  Perhaps I don't understand the movement pattern myself?

 

Drills I've used to try and get them going include straight runs with J turns, boot work with bow ties and boot arcs, bow ties with the ski on, and even to the more advanced boots on poles to show opposing rotary and complimentary rotary movements.  I've also shown them the how the gliding wedge works with the (slight) movement over the inside ski flattening the inside ski while edging the outside ski, but this often leads to leaning (and fore-aft balance problems).

 

What'm I missing?  Free-skiing, I know that...

 

Mike

Mike I would focus your attention on turning the new inside foot. That is the "challenged" foot as the weight is on that foot to start. The wedge is the result of the uphill foot turning easier due to it's unweighted state. Remember the inside half leads the turn.

Some of your descriptions in later posts seem to imply a reversed cause and effect relationship for the flattening. Flattening the foot is part of allowing the body to come over the skis and continue it's path down the hill. If you say move the body to flatten the skis you have two issues. One, it is not an actionable statement. What part of my body do I move to this end? Any movement description needs to have an actual body part or muscle, when, and how. Leaving that open ended leaves the door open for some not so good problem solving for the student ie pushing off. Second, if we imply a link between separate skills, even though we often use them together, that becomes internalized and we and the students are unable to see the world of possibles when skills are separated and combined in different ways. This I know seems nit-picky but, it is a different paradigm than for example "I extend to change edges" We all see legions of people every week exploding in mogul fields because they cannot "un-couple" this implied link. We have people in our training group that even when told repeatedly cannot break the automaticity  of that movement string.

   I would be very interested to hear from others how they present in the children's teaching cycle with flattening movements. I have not had the opportunity to work kids never ever for some time now. How does one address developmental differences between small children and adults?

 

   If anyone is wondering what automaticity is here is a link to an article on breaking bad habits that I found interesting. It is a long trip back to skiing but, I think it is quite profound in it's implications for "terminal intermediates".  The bibliography contains some links that will eventually lead you to some fairly dense studies that can be pretty interesting too. http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2012/01/02/144431794/what-vietnam-taught-us-about-breaking-bad-habits

post #42 of 53

Interesting article. Thanks for posting. Epic environment......

 

Extend to change edges is one way of teaching parallel skiing. To take the pressure off the skis in order to easily turn them into the new turn. There are other ways but not as many as people seem to think. It also includes flattening movements. Teaching small kids to ski is totally different from teaching adults. With kids you play your way through the lesson. With adults you are more in a traditional instruction type environment.

 

If your approach is wedging. The first challenge with any student is to keep them sliding over the snow in a wedge both skis skidding evenly. Once they nail this position I have kids follow me snaking down the bunny hill without any kind of instruction of how. I observe their movements and if they are doing something falsely such as rotating their upper body into the turn or windmill with their arms I give them a task that addresses this particular issue. Adults I have to instruct how to turn. Much because they expect me to do so. That's what they are paying me fore kind of situation. Still you don't have to nitpick and isolate movements if you don't want to. Most adults are unable for that level. They wear out quickly and even one turn done falsely can wear them out beyond recovery during lesson. Children can go on for hours.

post #43 of 53

Here's some feedback from a non instructor on the "wedge" from just a dad who had great experience teaching my son (now 9) who was skiing confidently steeps, including runs at Taos, NM and

the chutes at Mt Rose at age 5 (and made video's as he grew/progressed).

 

a) Learning the wedge for slowing down and stopping can be very detrimental to young skiers.  I've seen many young kids who can't abandon the habit.  I'm sure everyone's seen kids like this, skiing down steeper groomed terrain stuck in a perpetual "wedge".  It can be very had to break.  Not to mention, looks pretty hard on the knees, and always looks like an accident about to happen.

I always remember a few yrs back when my wife ski patrolled one year the story of a 6 or 7 year old kid going off the groomed trail into a tree and dying.  I'd bet that kid was stuck in a plow trying to control her speed when she went off the trail.

 

b) Newer ski designs (ie. shaped skis) are better taught teaching a parallel style.  These skis are easier to initiate into turns and are best done with skis parallel.

 

c) It is always best to stay on more moderate terrain until a kid can link turns together with skis parallel.  Pushing onto steeper terrain dangerous until a kid has really mastered good solid parallel

ski technique.

 

d) Learning how to stop via a "hockey stop" is key.  Learning how to stop in via a wedge is dangerous and a poor means to stop a skier on anything but beginner terrain.  You can always tell

kids with less than ideal skill even in the parks/boxes when they "wedge" to slow into features.  A young kid can't safely be on steep terrain, ski trees, or bumps when they are still reverting back into a wedge.   Watched a few young kids on our race team struggle to abandon a wedge.

 

e) Stay away from poles until they can earn them by demonstrating good skills.  A much better method is require kids to keep their skis parallel and keep their hands on their knees.

 

d) I used a simple mantra, "NO PIZZA, French Fries only. Good skiers only use French Fries ."

Remember, keep it simple with little kids.  Don't get all technical about what edge, etc.

 

e) And as far as learning how to stop in lift lines, etc.  Pretty easy to teach a competent little skiing kid how to make a wedge in the lift line and other similar situations.

 

f) If you don't teach the wedge/snow plow, you'll have nothing to "unteach" later on.

 

 

I personally cringe when I see young kids being taught to ski in a wedge, but that's just me.

 

 

Again, just some un-technical, non-instructor, just a dad watching lots of other kids ski commenting . . .

post #44 of 53
Lol. More "wedge = your child can die"
I guess that's not technical.
How is one supposed to take that seriously?

Next up: " How training wheels can get your child run over by a car"
post #45 of 53

kwcski1, interesting inlay.

 

Lots of good information but assuming the kid got killed because he was taught to wedge is totally false. Kind of makes everything you say questionable. The thing to remember is that there are always proper ways of doing things and if you stick to proper movements and techniques then you should be ok. If you don't then you can endanger yourself or as in the case with the kid even lose your life. Taking ski lessons and learning how to turn and stop is for your own safety. Not just for leisure and fun. Some teach the wedge others go straight to parallel. Both are functional if taught correctly. We had a young woman get killed at one of our resorts last year. Straight lined into the woods and hit a tree at high speed. Doesn't sound like a wedge thing. Sounds more like a parallel thing. Same applies to the kid you told us about.

 

One of the biggest concerns people have with teaching the wedge progression is that you kind of resort to the wedge not only in critical situations but also where there is no need for it. Micro wedging often called. But that is not a safety thing. Its a style thing. It looks bad. I am personally more concerned with skiers that never took or take ski lessons. Often taught by non professionals such as parents or other intermediate skiers with a huge urge to help others. I see this all too often.

post #46 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwcski1 View Post
 

Here's some feedback from a non instructor on the "wedge" from just a dad who had great experience teaching my son (now 9) who was skiing confidently steeps, including runs at Taos, NM and

the chutes at Mt Rose at age 5 (and made video's as he grew/progressed).

 

a) Learning the wedge for slowing down and stopping can be very detrimental to young skiers.  I've seen many young kids who can't abandon the habit.  I'm sure everyone's seen kids like this, skiing down steeper groomed terrain stuck in a perpetual "wedge".  It can be very had to break.  Not to mention, looks pretty hard on the knees, and always looks like an accident about to happen.

I always remember a few yrs back when my wife ski patrolled one year the story of a 6 or 7 year old kid going off the groomed trail into a tree and dying.  I'd bet that kid was stuck in a plow trying to control her speed when she went off the trail.

No comment here....

 

b) Newer ski designs (ie. shaped skis) are better taught teaching a parallel style.  These skis are easier to initiate into turns and are best done with skis parallel.

The new skis are also easier to wedge with. Not only turn parallel. And they are only easier to turn parallel because you can cheat.

 

c) It is always best to stay on more moderate terrain until a kid can link turns together with skis parallel.  Pushing onto steeper terrain dangerous until a kid has really mastered good solid parallelski technique.

The wedge is not final form. Its a stepping stone to skiing parallel.

 

d) Learning how to stop via a "hockey stop" is key.  Learning how to stop in via a wedge is dangerous and a poor means to stop a skier on anything but beginner terrain.  You can always tell kids with less than ideal skill even in the parks/boxes when they "wedge" to slow into features.  A young kid can't safely be on steep terrain, ski trees, or bumps when they are still reverting back into a wedge. Watched a few young kids on our race team struggle to abandon a wedge.

Wedging is ment as a stepping stone to skiing parallel. You usually practice wedging on easy terrain. As you learn how to ski parallel you also learn how to make a hockey stop that are useful in some situations. Just as stopping with a wedge is useful in some situations. The kids in the park that are slowing down by wedging are better off than the kids that don't know how to do this and go over a box with too much speed. I revert back to the wedge in some situations. Is it there fore dangerous for me to ski steep terrain? Watched more than a few of our kids on our race team on TV these past years. Pretty good considering they learned to ski using the wedge.

 

e) Stay away from poles until they can earn them by demonstrating good skills.  A much better method is require kids to keep their skis parallel and keep their hands on their knees.

Getting rid of the poles is good advice for absolute beginners and even keeping their hands on their knees. But keeping their hands on their knees while parallel turning is nothing I support. It only makes the skier turn as "one unit" and initiating parallel turns can be hard without flexing and extension range of movement.

 

d) I used a simple mantra, "NO PIZZA, French Fries only. Good skiers only use French Fries ."

Remember, keep it simple with little kids.  Don't get all technical about what edge, etc.

Yes, keep it simple. If you are teaching direct to parallel then terminology vise French Fries is ok. Teaching them good skiers only use French Fries is brain washing. And false. 

 

e) And as far as learning how to stop in lift lines, etc.  Pretty easy to teach a competent little skiing kid how to make a wedge in the lift line and other similar situations.

You have two types of wedging. Wedging to slow down and weding to turn. Usually these go together. So if you only know how to parallel turn you would have to first wedge to slow down and then bring your skis together and turn parallel. Not going to happen.   

 

f) If you don't teach the wedge/snow plow, you'll have nothing to "unteach" later on.

You will always have something to unteach later on. Want to become a good versatile skier, learn how to wedge. 

 

I personally cringe when I see young kids being taught to ski in a wedge, but that's just me.

I have a question for you that I hope you will answere. How exactly do you teach someone to turn parallel. How do you initiate a parallel turn? Also, were you taught to wedge? Can you give me an explanation of how you were taught to wedge turn. I'm looking for movements. Maybe I can this way get a better understanding of why you cringe when seeing young kids taught to wedge.

 

Again, just some un-technical, non-instructor, just a dad watching lots of other kids ski commenting . . .

Nothing wrong with that. No need to apologize. Your opinion is as valid as any ones.

post #47 of 53

Have to admit, wasn't trying to offend anyone with a post, if so my apologies. Feels like I turned in an essay and had the teacher give me an "F" with lots of red ink and better not to post in the 1st place.

 

Again, should clarify, my post is just my personal observations/thoughts and I'll admit I can be wrong or misunderstand a concept.  Not an instructor, just actually reading posts/video posts and comments to personally learn.

 

I think the thought I agree with/was conveying was a previous post:

 

Quote:

The first-timers I teach, if they buy the all-day five hour lesson, and if they are reasonably physically fit, are making parallel turns by the end of their first day.  The wedge is only good for lift line speed control.  Get away from it on the hill as soon as possible--hours, not months or years.

 

Our brains learn anything new by forming new neural connections.  At first a new movement takes place in the thinking part of the brain.  I think I will spread the ski tails, then....  This brain activity is slow and tiring.  After a few hundred repetitions the new neural connections have been formed, and we have "learned" the new movement.  It is automatic like walking, and our brains can think of something new.

 

Do not practice a movement that you'll discard so many times that it becomes "muscle memory."  Avoid anything you'll have to "un-learn."  It takes several thousand repetitions to change a learned movement.  Look at all the unfortunate skiers who learned stem christie/wedge christie for no good reason other than the fact that it was part of the dogma.  Some still have trouble breaking that habit after years of struggle.

 

I agree that it makes sense to get away from "the wedge" and avoiding anything that you have to "un-learn."   Obviously, that may not be common thought.

 

I did post my observation that, unfortunately, I've seen very often, and what has led to ask (apparently not in the right form), why is there so much emphasis on wedging for some kids?  That's an

honest question.  Obviously, the good kids can start to wedge and go on to become Olympic level skiers.  Perhaps a good thought, but a tangent would be, how do you get kids that seem unwilling to let go of a wedge and resort to using a wedge type stance in situations where it really doesn't seem called for, such as in the trees/bumps/or on most steep terrain (or is that thought wrong).

 

I've seen pretty frequently what I personally interpret as kids skiing down what looks rather dangerous and uncontrolled wedge type stance, often at relatively high speeds.  It also looks uncomfortable. I've also watched kids stuck in a fear scenario in a brake type wedge on intermediate or higher terrain.  Again, my thought is they is why are they taken on that terrain when it doesn't appear they are ready (and I've seen that watching some group kid lesson occasionally), and only wonder if it reinforces their wedge stance vs getting to what seems to be, in lay thought, a better more parallel form overall.  So if I used the word "cringe" it relates to that type of wedge observation, maybe that could be interpreted as the wrong word, but wasn't meant to offend anyone.

 

I'm sure I'm wrong, but if  a kid is more in a direct to parallel pattern, in a lay sense, it seems they'll typically do go into a small gliding wedge in a turn more naturally.

I also thought the 1st day everyone put on skis they have to learn a wedge, but I could be wrong again.

 

In any event, not going out to give lessons to kids/others, but just thought the "wedge" discussion was interesting after going through teaching my own kid, like many parents do in life.

Personally found that experience challenging, but rewarding and have no regrets.

Opting to try to learn/find good videos (especially those who post with video examples) and provide tips to my son as a parent/any parent is really personal prerogative.

I'm always open to seeking advice/instruction/coaches, etc but sometimes things may not be that practical nor affordable.

 

Bottom line, it's a good thing I'm not instructing.

 

No response is desired so this post can end.

post #48 of 53

kwcski1 - sorry for using read ink. My bad. Anyway, I think your are entitled your own opinion and it opens for great discussion. I've been teaching for many years in different ski schools with different kind of client segment's and administration. I also have two kids of my own. Over the years also the wedge progression has changed. Before we used to go from wedge to stem to parallel. Now the stem has been dropped out of the equation and we go straight from wedge to parallel. The down side IMO has been that now there is no clear distinction between wedging and parallel. They kind of float together. Before the "stem" made a distinct separation. And it made you think, how do I turn without stemming and/or wedging? Some ski schools still do that but others have skipped this stage and started to take influences from carving instead. For example, today where I work we usually don't teach children traditional parallel turns at all. We teach a progression that goes from wedging to parallel carving. The wedge is skied away with speed and replaced by edge locked carving. The problem here is that these kids don't learn how to initiate brushed parallel turns. However, we use terrain to teach our students these skills. We put them in mogul fields and in powder and have them ski trees and steeps and speed down race courses. Also we encourage them to ski in the park and the ski cross track and to play around on blades and snowboards. I personally see the wedge as a good way to get started quickly. When I teach a private lesson I usually have the first timer ski down the bunny slope all by him/herself in only one lesson. With some practice they manage easy slopes by them selves in no time. In our group lessons we put 3-5y old never evers in beginner once a week groups where they learn, by having fun, indirectly how to ski down the bunny hill by wedging and managing the children's lift during first season. In 3-5 seasons they are carving on race tracks. Direct to parallel approaches need more than one lesson to get them going. The French direct to parallel approach I read about in the 80s was set up as a bunch of full day lessons for a week. Great business opportunity.

post #49 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwcski1 View Post

Have to admit, wasn't trying to offend anyone with a post, if so my apologies. Feels like I turned in an essay and had the teacher give me an "F" with lots of red ink and better not to post in the 1st place.

Again, should clarify, my post is just my personal observations/thoughts and I'll admit I can be wrong or misunderstand a concept.  Not an instructor, just actually reading posts/video posts and comments to personally learn.

I think the thought I agree with/was conveying was a previous post:


I agree that it makes sense to get away from "the wedge" and avoiding anything that you have to "un-learn."   Obviously, that may not be common thought.

I did post my observation that, unfortunately, I've seen very often, and what has led to ask (apparently not in the right form), why is there so much emphasis on wedging for some kids?  That's an
honest question.  Obviously, the good kids can start to wedge and go on to become Olympic level skiers.  Perhaps a good thought, but a tangent would be, how do you get kids that seem unwilling to let go of a wedge and resort to using a wedge type stance in situations where it really doesn't seem called for, such as in the trees/bumps/or on most steep terrain (or is that thought wrong).

I've seen pretty frequently what I personally interpret as kids skiing down what looks rather dangerous and uncontrolled wedge type stance, often at relatively high speeds.  It also looks uncomfortable. I've also watched kids stuck in a fear scenario in a brake type wedge on intermediate or higher terrain.  Again, my thought is they is why are they taken on that terrain when it doesn't appear they are ready (and I've seen that watching some group kid lesson occasionally), and only wonder if it reinforces their wedge stance vs getting to what seems to be, in lay thought, a better more parallel form overall.  So if I used the word "cringe" it relates to that type of wedge observation, maybe that could be interpreted as the wrong word, but wasn't meant to offend anyone.

I'm sure I'm wrong, but if  a kid is more in a direct to parallel pattern, in a lay sense, it seems they'll typically do go into a small gliding wedge in a turn more naturally.
I also thought the 1st day everyone put on skis they have to learn a wedge, but I could be wrong again.

In any event, not going out to give lessons to kids/others, but just thought the "wedge" discussion was interesting after going through teaching my own kid, like many parents do in life.
Personally found that experience challenging, but rewarding and have no regrets.
Opting to try to learn/find good videos (especially those who post with video examples) and provide tips to my son as a parent/any parent is really personal prerogative.
I'm always open to seeking advice/instruction/coaches, etc but sometimes things may not be that practical nor affordable.

Bottom line, it's a good thing I'm not instructing.

No response is desired so this post can end.

In some European country (Switzerland maybe?), they used to teach 'parallels' and carving first, teaching techniques like snowploughing/wedging later as an advanced technique to be used in odd situations where it was deemed necessary.
post #50 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasChalker View Post


In some European country (Switzerland maybe?), they used to teach 'parallels' and carving first, teaching techniques like snowploughing/wedging later as an advanced technique to be used in odd situations where it was deemed necessary.

 

Same in the French direct to parallel system. They even named it something else. Power turn I think.

post #51 of 53

Hi kwcski, welcome to epicski.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwcski1 View Post
 

I agree that it makes sense to get away from "the wedge" and avoiding anything that you have to "un-learn."   Obviously, that may not be common thought.

 

I did post my observation that, unfortunately, I've seen very often, and what has led to ask (apparently not in the right form), why is there so much emphasis on wedging for some kids?  That's an

honest question.  Obviously, the good kids can start to wedge and go on to become Olympic level skiers.  

 

...

 

 

In any event, not going out to give lessons to kids/others, but just thought the "wedge" discussion was interesting after going through teaching my own kid, like many parents do in life.

Personally found that experience challenging, but rewarding and have no regrets.

Opting to try to learn/find good videos (especially those who post with video examples) and provide tips to my son as a parent/any parent is really personal prerogative.

I'm always open to seeking advice/instruction/coaches, etc but sometimes things may not be that practical nor affordable.

 

Bottom line, it's a good thing I'm not instructing.

 

My impression is you're conflating a wedge and a snowplow. A snowplow is a braking heelpush (ie it doesn't represent good skiing). A wedge contains the same elements seen in high end skiing. Moreover, in a wedge, you've created some separation between your upper and lower body - your femur turned in the hip socket. This aspect is so important - you don't see it enough in intermediate and even advanced skiers. 

 

To develop beyond a wedge, you add turning the inside ski once the skier can balance over the outside ski. You haven't had to un-learn anything. But those fundamentals of turning the lower joints are so important and aren't developed enough at higher levels. I'll often use wedge-like exercises with groups to help develop their lower joint turning. 

 
 Perhaps a good thought, but a tangent would be, how do you get kids that seem unwilling to let go of a wedge and resort to using a wedge type stance in situations where it really doesn't seem called for, such as in the trees/bumps/or on most steep terrain (or is that thought wrong).

 

Garland turns, sideslips, pivot slips, j-turns, rollerblade turns - lots of tactics to progress a wedge. But learners need to be able to balance on the outside ski for these techniques to work. If the skier's weight is on the inside ski, they won't be able to turn it. There are also lots of tactics to work on balancing over the outside ski.

 

When learners revert to using a wedge, you've over-terrained them. You need to figure out what's keeping them from succeeding, develop that skill on easier terrain, then work it into the more difficult terrain. This is where being a certified instructor comes in handy. 

 
 I've seen pretty frequently what I personally interpret as kids skiing down what looks rather dangerous and uncontrolled wedge type stance, often at relatively high speeds.  It also looks uncomfortable. I've also watched kids stuck in a fear scenario in a brake type wedge on intermediate or higher terrain.  Again, my thought is they is why are they taken on that terrain when it doesn't appear they are ready (and I've seen that watching some group kid lesson occasionally), and only wonder if it reinforces their wedge stance vs getting to what seems to be, in lay thought, a better more parallel form overall.  So if I used the word "cringe" it relates to that type of wedge observation, maybe that could be interpreted as the wrong word, but wasn't meant to offend anyone.

 

Yes, bad terrain choices are a problem. This isn't a wedge issue. In many cases, the wedge emerges because it's the first thing a skier learned--and learners revert to the familiar. In some ways, breaking out the wedge can be a good thing, since in dangerous situations the skier needs some extra friction and the increased steering angle a wedge provides. There's a tactic of stepping into a wedge (more like a stem) on steeper terrain that works for speed control, seen at 2:00 in this video: 

 
 No response is desired so this post can end.

 

You're posting in a discussion forum, not your personal journal ;) if you do make a post, it's possible (and likely!) that your comments will be discussed. Dialogue is part of how we learn, and as you're an individual who's open to new coaching and instruction, I'm sure you can appreciate that.

post #52 of 53

The hill I ski at has gone to a direct to parallel approach.  From talking to a few of the instructors on the lifts they think it works.  They have a very flat area that they use for teaching first timers.  Its at the base of the hill away from the main lifts so its idea for teaching first timers.  They just have a magic carpet to help get people to the sop of the slope.  As an adult that learned to ski using the wedge and then learning about PMTS I think it is interesting to see if it sticks at my hill.  I wasn't able to get my kids in lessons there last season because they filled up quick.  Next year I plan on getting my kids in those lessons and I'll follow up on their progress.  I have plenty of gopro footage of them from this past season to do a compare and contrast on their progress.   

post #53 of 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by voghan View Post

The hill I ski at has gone to a direct to parallel approach.  From talking to a few of the instructors on the lifts they think it works.  They have a very flat area that they use for teaching first timers.  Its at the base of the hill away from the main lifts so its idea for teaching first timers.  They just have a magic carpet to help get people to the sop of the slope.  As an adult that learned to ski using the wedge and then learning about PMTS I think it is interesting to see if it sticks at my hill.  I wasn't able to get my kids in lessons there last season because they filled up quick.  Next year I plan on getting my kids in those lessons and I'll follow up on their progress.  I have plenty of gopro footage of them from this past season to do a compare and contrast on their progress.   

wow, great. Edit some footidge for us please.
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