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Frustrated Level 3 CSIA Training... - Page 2

post #31 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post
 

I don't think it's down to a 'look' at all. 

Good skiing is good skiing, I've seen people with NZSIA, APSI, PSIA and BASI  certs pass CSIA exams, it's performance on the ski that matters and the result on snow.

If I were in your position I would question your trainers more, if you've been told one thing from Vincent and it contradicts what you get told by the other trainers then ask why they want to use that approach. Often a contradiction is not one, rather a different approach to get to the same end goal. As an example: You rotate when you are too forward in the ankle...but you'll be too forward in the ankle if you rotate. Chicken and egg...so question what you are told and work towards a goal.

Find 3 trainers than work well, and try and come up with a game plan from them, with exactly what they all want from you, in each turn shape and terrain, and come up with an exact picture from that. 

In the end all L4's are going to approach things slightly differently, as you would be different when teaching the general public from another instructor...but rest assured we still sing off the same sheet, just at different pitches of sound. 

Take advantage of your PDP's get onto Jill Sagan who is the lady for PDP in BC. Organise training with other candidates and film a lot, come over to Alberta in spring and take advantage of our $30 one day modules. 

Good luck 


Thank you for the considered reply...it's much appreciated.

 

Like you say...good skiers are good skiers.

 

However... I do still think their is a certain 'look'...call it what you like, required by each association.

 

Yes...I've seen people from other associations pass CSIA Exams....but I've also seen them fail, because they couldn't achieve what was required, even though they skied well.

 

What is the point of the Interski congress meetings, if not to demo each countries way of skiing?

 

This thread has certainly made me think about my skiing, where I'm heading with it and who I want as my coach's.

 

Thanks everyone for their input... everyone has been been helpful in making me think positive and where I need to progress...much appreciated.

post #32 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 

Hi... I'm seeking to pivot...to demonstrate different ways of turning required in my level 3 CSIA exams. It's a pre requisite that you can demonstrate this and not just rely on using your edges. As well as other reasons...

 

As for Alignment... I have had my Alignment done...plus footbeds...but it is only effective so far, as it is the joint in the hip not the knee that's the problem. It curves slightly inward.

 

I can attain high edge angles...but the inside ski doesn't follow the outside ski as it should... ie parallel to one another. The inside ski is slightly more upright because of the hip alignment. I feel I have to rotate the femur in the hip more to get the right alignment.

 

As for the top racers...I probably didn't make myself clear enough... I laughed because I agree with them... exactly...why invent the wheel...surely in an ideal world...all the worlds associations would ski the same way.

 

The only pics I can find of myself showing the problem are attached...unfortunately they don't show it that well...

 

 

Posting the video link you took those screenshots from would make it easier to spot any issues. Can you balance on one foot on both edges in a straight run and a traverse? Video of that drill does a lot to diagnose alignment problems. 

post #33 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post
 

 

Posting the video link you took those screenshots from would make it easier to spot any issues. Can you balance on one foot on both edges in a straight run and a traverse? Video of that drill does a lot to diagnose alignment problems. 


I'd love to be able to upload the video...but their is a block on it from the person who took it...as it's only for personal use and not public.

 

As for the drill...yes I can do that... I practice a lot of one ski skiing, especially inside ski only.

post #34 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post

...

Hi... I'm seeking to pivot...to demonstrate different ways of turning required in my level 3 CSIA exams. It's a pre requisite that you can demonstrate this and not just rely on using your edges. As well as other reasons...

 

As for Alignment... I have had my Alignment done...plus footbeds...but it is only effective so far, as it is the joint in the hip not the knee that's the problem. It curves slightly inward.

 

I can attain high edge angles...but the inside ski doesn't follow the outside ski as it should... ie parallel to one another. The inside ski is slightly more upright because of the hip alignment. I feel I have to rotate the femur in the hip more to get the right alignment.

 

As for the top racers...I probably didn't make myself clear enough... I laughed because I agree with them... exactly...why invent the wheel...surely in an ideal world...all the worlds associations would ski the same way.

...

 

Well, this explains why you are having your problems. Between the pics and the description of your hip issue/alignment, I can see why you are getting conflicting advice. This is not something that is a common problem. Your upper/lower body separation looks weird. Pic 1 shows overflexing of the ankle at the bottom of the turn. In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski through the middle of the turn. I can see why someone might tell you to flex more at the top of the turns. Your inside hands look low. But my guess is that your race times are in the upper 10% for your age group because your turn entries look spot on. This case is probably over my pay grade. We need video (I would need very clean video of your free skiing and a head on clip of a straight run shifting from one foot lifted to the other lifted) and a description of the alignment work you've had done. Either get more video or use a tool like Applian (Replay) to capture the private video, edit your piece out and post it separately.

post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post


I'd love to be able to upload the video...but their is a block on it from the person who took it...as it's only for personal use and not public.

You know you can download the file and re-upload to YouTube right?
post #36 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post

Why are you seeking a pivot? How do you think this will improve the tops of your turns? More importantly, if you are knock kneed to the point that you cannot roll the new inside ski to the little toe edge, why have you not had an alignment done? 


I'm 6'3 and have not encountered this problem. Think about what your feet are doing rather than your knees in order to attain higher edge angles. 







Maybe give their input some thought. If top racers all ski using very similar movements, why not learn those movements instead of trying to reinvent the wheel? 
You're actually doing exactly what I said, is to ski with a narrowet stance, which instructors usually hate.

The only problem is you're keeping your inside leg to long, which is blocking your outside leg and screwing up your upper body alignment. You have to pull the inside ski out of the way. The only way to get it out there like that is to start the turn with a narrow stance and tip the inside leg away fast during the top of the turn.

You can't ski like that with a wider stance. Its even worse for tall people.

Edited by clink83 - 3/25/14 at 12:43pm
post #37 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


You're actually doing exactly what I said, is to ski with a narrowet stance, which instructors usually hate.

The only problem is you're keeping your inside leg to long, which is blocking your outside leg and screwing up your upper body alignment. You have to pull the inside ski out of the way. The only way to get it out there like that is to start the turn with a narrow stance and tip the inside leg away fast during the top of the turn.

You can't ski like that with a wider stance. Its even worse for tall people.

 

Yes, 100% agreed. I have worked on narrowing my stance this year, which has forced me to truly learn vertical separation. You can only tip so far in a narrow stance before you have to flex the inside leg to get it out of the way, otherwise it will become loaded and you will low-side. I have learned this by experience many times this season haha. 

 

I'm aware that I need to be better about getting the inside leg out of the way. It is a symptom of imperfect balance on the outside ski. It is a work in progress...

post #38 of 59
Those are Still nice turns!
post #39 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

 

Well, this explains why you are having your problems. Between the pics and the description of your hip issue/alignment, I can see why you are getting conflicting advice. This is not something that is a common problem. Your upper/lower body separation looks weird. Pic 1 shows overflexing of the ankle at the bottom of the turn. In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski through the middle of the turn. I can see why someone might tell you to flex more at the top of the turns. Your inside hands look low. But my guess is that your race times are in the upper 10% for your age group because your turn entries look spot on. This case is probably over my pay grade. We need video (I would need very clean video of your free skiing and a head on clip of a straight run shifting from one foot lifted to the other lifted) and a description of the alignment work you've had done. Either get more video or use a tool like Applian (Replay) to capture the private video, edit your piece out and post it separately.


Thanks for the feedback :-)

 

Unfortunately I don't have any video that I can upload.

 

The video I have, is not for public viewing, as it also contains other people skiing and was agreed not to show.

 

You are correct...I do overflex in the ankle, especially in phase 3 of the turn and have a habit of holding on too long to that position.

I also do hold my arms generally lower than desired...but it's comfortable for me and my balance alters if I move them higher..

Watch the Italians...they tend to hold their arms and hands lower too...not sure why.

My hands do get in the 'correct' position though when in the steeps and bumps and using a pole plant...

 

My Race (GS) times are ok...Nearest i've got to inside Eurotest pass time is 3 secs...so loads to do...my SL...pants...but I don't get enough practice.

post #40 of 59

It is not necessarily a hip problem. You might have a foot joint/ankle mobility problem. Have you tried heel risers and/or varus adjustment?

If you stand in your boots and push the knees in one direction, does the movement stop because of the foot joint or the hip? (not that you should push your knees when skiing but just as a test)

post #41 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

It is not necessarily a hip problem. You might have a foot joint/ankle mobility problem. Have you tried heel risers and/or varus adjustment?

If you stand in your boots and push the knees in one direction, does the movement stop because of the foot joint or the hip? (not that you should push your knees when skiing but just as a test)


No problems with ankle or feet mobility.

I have an awesome boot fitter and I've spent many an hour getting the right fitting done.

The problem is not forward movement...but twisting the femur in the hip joint.

Because it is slightly in... I have to open the hip joint more than normal, to get the inside ski inline and over...all in conjuction with separation and anglutation.

post #42 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 


 

The problem is not forward movement...but twisting the femur in the hip joint.

 

Yes, sorry I was not clear enough. I was not talking about ankle mobility, I was talking about subtalar mobility. The reason I mentioned ankle is that subtalar mobility depends on ankle angle, hence the risers.

 

If the foot is pointing in a certain direction and you rotate the femur and tibia in an outwards direction while keeping the hip and foot stationary the movement will stop either in the subtalar joint or the hip joint.

I find that for most people the limitation is in the subtalar joint, not the hip.

post #43 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Yes, sorry I was not clear enough. I was not talking about ankle mobility, I was talking about subtalar mobility. The reason I mentioned ankle is that subtalar mobility depends on ankle angle, hence the risers.

 

If the foot is pointing in a certain direction and you rotate the femur and tibia in an outwards direction while keeping the hip and foot stationary the movement will stop either in the subtalar joint or the hip joint.

I find that for most people the limitation is in the subtalar joint, not the hip.


I must admit, I had to look up the subtaler joint... I had no idea what it was.

 

How can you twist that joint in a ski boot? The only joint you can twist is the femur in the hip joint...

 

I also do feel stiffness in the hip joint. Especially when practicing Wedge on a steep...that's when it's most noticeable.

post #44 of 59
That's what I was wondering. I ski a 130 flex boot, and there is very little flexing my ankle joint unless I'm going 30+mph. That's what I don't get about the "standing tall in the ankle" or "flexing at the ankle" comments. You should have some amount of give in your insoles that allows some pronation of the foot, but not enough to matter much.
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 


I must admit, I had to look up the subtaler joint... I had no idea what it was.

 

How can you twist that joint in a ski boot? The only joint you can twist is the femur in the hip joint...

 

I also do feel stiffness in the hip joint. Especially when practicing Wedge on a steep...that's when it's most noticeable.

It moves, if it didn't there would be no way to knee angulate in a carved turn. When you tip your feet inside the ski boot it is the subtalar joint in action.

There are ski teaching systems that have that movement as one of the corner stones of their methodology.

post #46 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

 

Well, this explains why you are having your problems. Between the pics and the description of your hip issue/alignment, I can see why you are getting conflicting advice. This is not something that is a common problem. Your upper/lower body separation looks weird. Pic 1 shows overflexing of the ankle at the bottom of the turn. In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski through the middle of the turn. I can see why someone might tell you to flex more at the top of the turns. Your inside hands look low. But my guess is that your race times are in the upper 10% for your age group because your turn entries look spot on. This case is probably over my pay grade. We need video (I would need very clean video of your free skiing and a head on clip of a straight run shifting from one foot lifted to the other lifted) and a description of the alignment work you've had done. Either get more video or use a tool like Applian (Replay) to capture the private video, edit your piece out and post it separately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 


Thanks for the feedback :-)

 

Unfortunately I don't have any video that I can upload.

 

The video I have, is not for public viewing, as it also contains other people skiing and was agreed not to show.

 

You are correct...I do overflex in the ankle, especially in phase 3 of the turn and have a habit of holding on too long to that position.

I also do hold my arms generally lower than desired...but it's comfortable for me and my balance alters if I move them higher..

Watch the Italians...they tend to hold their arms and hands lower too...not sure why.

My hands do get in the 'correct' position though when in the steeps and bumps and using a pole plant...

 

My Race (GS) times are ok...Nearest i've got to inside Eurotest pass time is 3 secs...so loads to do...my SL...pants...but I don't get enough practice.

 

 

My 2 cents here ok !?...

Comment on photo 2 & 3 :

I agree with ThRusty saying "..In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski...". You are still in phase 1 of turn (before the falling line).

You have too much hips angulation here: it is too early. Combined with overweighting the inside ski and being before the falling line, we call it in France a typical "calage de hanche". That leads typically to joints locking. I cannot understand here it is a huge, very known fault...it doesnt match with your level.

 

Btw I wrote some analysis of how to prepare hips angulation, the one you do in the falling line :

http://www.epicski.com/t/126903/lets-get-physics-cal/120#post_1713095

 

 

 

Calage de hanche (hips locking) ???:


Edited by Magnifico - 3/26/14 at 10:13am
post #47 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

It moves, if it didn't there would be no way to knee angulate in a carved turn. When you tip your feet inside the ski boot it is the subtalar joint in action.
There are ski teaching systems that have that movement as one of the corner stones of their methodology.
How do I carve then? I have rigid plastic orthotics in my ski boots that pretty much stop the subtailor joint from moving.

Judging from the photos the OP posted he needs to bend the inside knee more and angulate the outside leg more, that's why he can't get bigger edge angles and feels like he's blocked.
post #48 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


How do I carve then? I have rigid plastic orthotics in my ski boots that pretty much stop the subtailor joint from moving.

Judging from the photos the OP posted he needs to bend the inside knee more and angulate the outside leg more, that's why he can't get bigger edge angles and feels like he's blocked.

Well I guess you don't use much knee angulation then or do you have any other proposal of how the knee can move to the inside if the foot joint does not change its state?

 

Obviously you need to flex the inside leg to create angles, but it is not as simple as that. It is all about balance and Magnifico described it pretty well.

post #49 of 59
I tip my outside ski on edge and apply pressure to the front of the boot while tipping my inside ski away. I have no problems touching my outside knee to my inside ski boot top if I can pick up enough speed.
That rigid orthotic is bad for skiing because it beats up my feet and knees due to the lack of shock absortion, but it doesn't stop me from turning at all. That's what I don't understand.

Yea, I was going to delete my comment. I can see the problem, but I'm not saying it right.
post #50 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by spudski View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

 

Well, this explains why you are having your problems. Between the pics and the description of your hip issue/alignment, I can see why you are getting conflicting advice. This is not something that is a common problem. Your upper/lower body separation looks weird. Pic 1 shows overflexing of the ankle at the bottom of the turn. In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski through the middle of the turn. I can see why someone might tell you to flex more at the top of the turns. Your inside hands look low. But my guess is that your race times are in the upper 10% for your age group because your turn entries look spot on. This case is probably over my pay grade. We need video (I would need very clean video of your free skiing and a head on clip of a straight run shifting from one foot lifted to the other lifted) and a description of the alignment work you've had done. Either get more video or use a tool like Applian (Replay) to capture the private video, edit your piece out and post it separately.


Thanks for the feedback :-)

 

Unfortunately I don't have any video that I can upload.

 

The video I have, is not for public viewing, as it also contains other people skiing and was agreed not to show.

 

You are correct...I do overflex in the ankle, especially in phase 3 of the turn and have a habit of holding on too long to that position.

I also do hold my arms generally lower than desired...but it's comfortable for me and my balance alters if I move them higher..

Watch the Italians...they tend to hold their arms and hands lower too...not sure why.

My hands do get in the 'correct' position though when in the steeps and bumps and using a pole plant...

 

My Race (GS) times are ok...Nearest i've got to inside Eurotest pass time is 3 secs...so loads to do...my SL...pants...but I don't get enough practice.

 

My points about video were:

a) get more - next time on snow - beg borrow steal whatever, or do it next season

b) take the private video, copy it, edit it so only your skiing is present and repost

Yes this takes work that is not necessarily easy, but it makes our ability to help much easier.

 

Overflexing in phase 3 is a result. This is not something that is fixable in phase 3. Don't worry about holding on too long. That's putting a band aid on a symptom.

 

Hand and arm positions are generally signs versus causes. You should be able to ski just fine holding your hands behind your back. I'd be advising you how you could use your hands to help guide your shoulders and hips into different positions earlier in the turn (e.g. the Schlopy drill), but I don't know what the optimal adjustment is for your hip condition. Keeping hands low is ok as long as that it is neither pulling the hips and shoulders out of position or are a result of the hips and shoulders being out of position. Watch good skiers and you'll see that a line drawn between the hands mimics the left/right hip and left/right shoulder relationship and all are parallel to the underlying snow surface as an ideal (i.e. close is good enough, way off is a clue). 

post #51 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

I tip my outside ski on edge and apply pressure to the front of the boot while tipping my inside ski away. I have no problems touching my outside knee to my inside ski boot top if I can pick up enough speed.
That rigid orthotic is bad for skiing because it beats up my feet and knees due to the lack of shock absortion, but it doesn't stop me from turning at all. That's what I don't understand.

Yea, I was going to delete my comment. I can see the problem, but I'm not saying it right.

The lower leg and foot can move even in a tight fitting boot. As a test; -If you wrap both hands around the lower leg and squeeze and then twist the hands around the leg you will find that you can still twist  a fair amount, and a ski boot is less tight than this. Similarly for the foot. You don't need a lot of movement to move the knee a few degrees, but if you have a mobility limitation in the foot it does not matter how tight or loose the boot is.

post #52 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post

The lower leg and foot can move even in a tight fitting boot. As a test; -If you wrap both hands around the lower leg and squeeze and then twist the hands around the leg you will find that you can still twist  a fair amount, and a ski boot is less tight than this. Similarly for the foot. You don't need a lot of movement to move the knee a few degrees, but if you have a mobility limitation in the foot it does not matter how tight or loose the boot is.
I think I see what you are saying. I have a tiny bit of ankle mobility in my boot. I can barely feel it, but I paid close attention skiing today and I think I get it. I need softer orthotics..ouch.
post #53 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnifico View Post
 

 

 

My 2 cents here ok !?...

Comment on photo 2 & 3 :

I agree with ThRusty saying "..In pics 2 and 3 it looks like you're going to overweight the inside ski...". You are still in phase 1 of turn (before the falling line).

You have too much hips angulation here: it is too early. Combined with overweighting the inside ski and being before the falling line, we call it in France a typical "calage de hanche". That leads typically to joints locking. I cannot understand here it is a huge, very known fault...it doesnt match with your level.

 

Btw I wrote some analysis of how to prepare hips angulation, the one you do in the falling line :

http://www.epicski.com/t/126903/lets-get-physics-cal/120#post_1713095

 

 

 

Calage de hanche (hips locking) ???:


I totally agree with your assessment.

 

I've been working on getting my outside ski further forward.

 

At the moment, it is too far back. Causing a bent ankle and hip angulation too early.

I've been trying to get a feeling of 'kicking' around the turn to get it more forward.

 

This has enabled me to get my ankle more straight, my hips less angulated, and legs further inclined.

It feels way more stable, stronger and balanced. I'm also more mobile because of it.

 

It seems to be working.

 

Still having a slight problem with my inner ski though....but far less.

 

I've had my ski re aligned...and according to my boot fitter, it is stemming from my hip joint.

post #54 of 59
I often ski best, when I have to lead slightly with my inside ski and have a wider stance... Not something that is desirable... but it is a slight thought I need to initiate, to create room.

When my skis get flat... I feel I need to lead into phase 1 of the turn by toppling inside and forward...just a slight movement, lead by my inside ski. It clears and makes room in the pelvis and hip.

This enables me to move laterally with both skis even...rather than the outside ski being on edge and the inside ski less so.
When done wrong by me...it can lead to the weight being too much on the inside ski...so it has to be just a miniscule movement...just enough to help.



We had a tall instructor with similar movements.

If you watched real close this would be the sequence:

Through transition, flat skis.
Inside ski slight movement ahead (and slight tip divergence)
Next he had to "fall inside"
Center of mass now between feet (due to tip lead)
Most of the weight now on the tail of the inside ski --> park and ride ---> repeat for the next turn (he also had an "up and over" move)

To me, once the inside foot squirts several things go wrong.
The flow is not down the hill
The hips may be pointed too much toward the outside of turn (see last still in post #30).
The tips may diverge (they will if the inside foot moves forward enough)



For me personally, when i think about standing on the big toe edge of the uphill ski to get "upside down"
the inside leg just gets out of the way.
post #55 of 59
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga-6wy0Nboo
This has been posted 20 million times I'm sure, but the more I watch it the more it makes sense. Ignore what he says and watch his feet. Lift and tip! Plus its like lifting your inside foot and turning on flat turns, you can't do it with bad form and get away with it.
Edited by clink83 - 3/28/14 at 6:00pm
post #56 of 59
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga-6wy0Nboo
This has been posted 20 million times I'm sure, but the more I watch it the more it makes sense. Ignore what he says and watch his feet. Lift and tip! Plus its like lifting your inside foot and turning on flat turns, you can't do it with bad form and get away with it.


The one thing that stands out for me...is that Ted say's he 'pushes as hard as he can on the downhill ski, then releases'...

 

Every Coach I've had, has told me not to increase the pressure by 'pushing', but just let the forces of speed and gravity do their work...my argument has always been about pressure control...as in adding or decreasing...

post #57 of 59

Ted is trying to bend a very long radius very stiff GS ski...he does that better and carves more.

Of course, the speed and forces are pretty high in the course.

 

His workout:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtxBp5ed4Wg

post #58 of 59

Wow.

 

Getting confused by feedback from too many coaches? My head is spinning from reading a single thread.

 

You need to define a couple of folks who can mentor your development. Season long goals can be defined and you can reference feedback to those goals. As stated earlier, at level 3 you should be able to reference internally, and communicate your progress and feedback to your trainers. New trainers are great and short clinics will give you a view into varied ideas but you need a cornerstone to put them in context.

 

The higher up the certification ladder you go, we are just looking for good skiers. Relaxed ownership of solid fundamentals is the key. Continue to spend time in the gates and focus on your time, not how you look. Get into the terrain park and play in the features. Do a worm turn or a helicopter in the bumps.

 

Remember all of the skiers legends have looked up to in your time on the mountains? Were they the most technically perfect skiers or the ones who embodied rock solid skiing mixed with a ton of personality and flair? Aspire to be a legend!

post #59 of 59
Spud, good luck if you're yet to attend the exam. Wishing you the best.

If you've taken it, who were the examiners, how'd you do and what did you think of the experience?
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