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More stance evaluation - Page 3

post #61 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

I have a pocket full of canting chips. Put 'em under the heels and they feel it right away. I am sure to tell them this isn't the cure it just means you need to go to a bootfitter and spend hundreds of dollars.
nice! I am not sure about the hundreds of dollars. I don't have experience but it feels that if you stay on the good side of 80/20 it shouldn't cost more than 50-100$. As a non-performance skier, a boot fitter that knows what he's doing shouldn't take more than 30-60 min to sort out 80% of your probems, it just feels that way - bud should know better...?

Cheers

I know a footbed is towards 100$ so that is on top...
post #62 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


nice! I am not sure about the hundreds of dollars. I don't have experience but it feels that if you stay on the good side of 80/20 it shouldn't cost more than 50-100$. As a non-performance skier, a boot fitter that knows what he's doing shouldn't take more than 30-60 min to sort out 80% of your probems, it just feels that way - bud should know better...?

Cheers

 

Start with a footbed - I'm not sure what a trim to fit costs ($40ish), but a custom is bordering on $200. If you aren't doing something with a footbed the rest of it is probably not worth doing. Cuff alignment is basically just their time, so minimal expense, same for planing your zeppa or building it up if need be, but canting/planing is gonna cost some bucks, probably $100 minimum, heck replacement lifters are like $50-$70. I'd expect the works to be in the range of $300.

post #63 of 77
Planing a boot is about $85 for one and $175 for both. 3 mm lifter plates are around $35. Cantology shims are around $35 per boot if I recall. Trim to fit footbeds are around $45 and customs 150 to 200 smackeroos.

Changing cuff alignment only insures that the tib/fib/lower leg shaft enters the boot commensurate with the skier's anatomy. One can be cuff aligned inward and canted outward. Respectfully, there's no way in hell one should align a cuff or cant a boot without some more evaluation. We can easily see when's there's a potential alignment issue, but the 'answer' is a process. To the board to measure, some taping/ temp shimming, back and forth... the best work is done when the fitter works with a coach. Even better if they are the same person, but this is pretty rare. A good coach knows what they don't know and know when and who to refer their skiers to. There's no shortcut. Time with hands on boots, a lot of training, good mentorship in the process are critical. JMHO. I'm only posting this because this isn't stuff to be left to amateurs with a few hours of training. Tough love, but it is what it is.
post #64 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

Warning, rant.

 

<rant>

Okay, so here's my question: Why is it so hard to get boot fitters to "go all the way" with alignment stuff? Why do they always do the least possible little thing and then leave it up to me to figure out if the one little thing was "enough," even when I'd think it should be fairly clear to them how much "enough" is for my anatomy?  Isn't that their job? Why do I always get the strong sense that they are waiting for ME to tell THEM that something is off with my stance. Shouldn't it be the other way around? I understand the concept of changing one variable at a time and seeing what happens before you change another one. But I also know that when I'm making fish chowder I don't taste it after adding each main ingredient before deciding whether I'm going to add any more. I know damn well I'm going to have milk and onions and potatoes and fish in there. I don't put it on the table without the fish and ask my family if it tastes right.

 

I know I have alignment issues. I've known this for many years. First it was Superfeet. Then it was custom insoles. Then it was custom insoles with some taped-on posting. Then it was different custom insoles. Then it was cuff alignment. The more cuff alignment. Then more radical cuff alignment. No one has ever even once brought up the question of whether (real) canting might help me out. Why not? Nothing in my experience gives me any confidence that this hasn't come up because boot fitters thought about it and decided based on evidence that I don't need it. On the contrary, everything in my experience suggests that no fitter is going to suggest that until and unless I ask for it explicitly. Why should I have to do that? How would I know whether I'm a candidate for canting or not? I didn't know whether I needed footbeds until stuff that happened out side of skiing made me wonder about it. And then when I asked the answer was, "Oh yeah, you are a pretty wicked pronator, aren't you? That would be a good thing to try." Duh. When I buy boots, what are the magic words I have to say to get them to START by making ALL the adjustments they think it will take to get me all the way to a clean stance, rather than making me come in over and over and and over, feeling like a fool after a while? Of course I understand there will be tweaking to get things perfect, but I want the fitter to drive the basic initial analysis and candidate fix, not me. He is the pro, not me. Bud's comments, among others, make me feel like this should be a no-brainer, but in my world it has never seemed to work this way.

</rant>

 

Edit: Maybe I just need to go to Stowe and take a lesson with epic and his chips.

Or Come ski Tahoe and I will get you dialed for sure! ;) 

 

Guys, reading some of the assessments and solutions from other above, it is clear there are some misperceptions about what does what regarding boot adjustments.  To do it correctly there is a definite methodology and protocol and skipping around or changing one parameter is like playing the lottery, your chances of success are minimal.  Changing the cuff "can't" on a boot is not the correct solution for sole canting issues.  In fact many times an A framed skier will need the cuffs tipped inward to match their tibia angle and then sole canted the other way to change knee position.  

 

Also alignment services do vary widely around the world, but at least here in my shop custom footbeds are $180-200 and canting is anywhere from $40-180 depending on what we need to do.

post #65 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

the best work is done when the fitter works with a coach. Even better if they are the same person, but this is pretty rare. A good coach knows what they don't know and know when and who to refer their skiers to. There's no shortcut. Time with hands on boots, a lot of training, good mentorship in the process are critical. JMHO. I'm only posting this because this isn't stuff to be left to amateurs with a few hours of training. Tough love, but it is what it is.

 

If only these opportunities were readily available, or available in online form (for training/mentorship anyway).

post #66 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

If only these opportunities were readily available, or available in online form (for training/mentorship anyway).

Ahh…..hello?  Check out "Synergy Coaching" at Snowind.com  This is what I have been doing for over twenty years.  There are a few around the Country that have the expertise in coaching and alignment you just need to seek us out.:D

post #67 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

Ahh…..hello?  Check out "Synergy Coaching" at Snowind.com  This is what I have been doing for over twenty years.  There are a few around the Country that have the expertise in coaching and alignment you just need to seek us out.:D

 

If you were up here in Toronto, I would jump in! I'd actually suggest that alignment specialization be an option within instructor certification programs.

post #68 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

If only these opportunities were readily available, or available in online form (for training/mentorship anyway).

Again, its rare that one has time to develop skill sets to be both a great coach and fitter. Most of us will have to settle for the best compromise. As a coach, know who the good fitters are in your region. Your SSD and TD will know them. Make an effort to meet them face to face. Sure, we can get what's essentially a briefing on boot fitting and learn the very basic, but the people who are worth sending your clients to have invested much of their lives in the process. Our job is to be able to articulate accurately what we see on the hill to the fitter. That in itself will be a huge and valued help.
post #69 of 77

Qcanoe,

 

There may be a liability issue that makes them hesitate to plane the soles.  

 

Try this to evaluate whether you need canting wedges on your bootsoles.  Get onto flat hard snow with very little pitch.  Have a friend with a camera standing below at the end of the run.  Ski towards the camera on your left ski, with right ski lifted.  Flex and extend that stance leg, so you go up and down on that one foot.  You are not supposed to be turning, just making a straight run on a flat ski.  Do it again on the other foot for the camera.  Do what you have to do to make that run straight.  Watch your videos.

 

If your stance knee goes way over to one side, throwing you off balance, as you flex and extend and attempt to go straight, you may need canting wedges under your boot soles to "move the knee."

 

Your boot cuffs should have been adjusted to match your lower leg angle while standing up straight in the house before you do this.  Boot cuff adjustments are not permanent fixes for "moving the knee."


​Take that video to a real bootfitter who has experience canting bootsoles.  These bootfitters usually work with racers.  Sometimes they work independently, not in shops that sell boots.

post #70 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

If only these opportunities were readily available, or available in online form (for training/mentorship anyway).

you can wait until i learn and document all the factors here - may take a few years :)

 

since i have been dirt biking for much longer, my enduro blog has a very detailed setup section, covering everything you may want to do to a bike and why: http://www.racerkidz.com/wiki/wiki/Blog:Razie_Enduro_School

post #71 of 77
... Oops. Almost made a comment . But I'd say in general, one begins to sort of get it, or at least clearly realize what they don't know, after hands on/in a out 400-500 boots. That's aside from all the reading and study.
post #72 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

Warning, rant.

 

[snip]

 

Edit: Maybe I just need to go to Stowe and take a lesson with epic and his chips.

Or Come ski Tahoe and I will get you dialed for sure! ;) 

 

[snip]

 

Bud, thanks. That's a constructive, sensible, and pragmatic - well, sort of, given the minor issue of an intervening continent - offer. I will think seriously about that if there's even a chance of me getting out there. (Which of course I would like to do some day anyway.) Meanwhile, it does sort of reinforce my general sense that when people here talk about "finding a competent bootfitter," they are not really talking about "the best one you can find within fifty (or a hundred or even two hundred) miles". They are really talking about one of seventeen people in the country or something who are willing and able to work at this level with the general public.

post #73 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

"finding a competent bootfitter," they are not really talking about "the best one you can find within fifty (or a hundred or even two hundred) miles". They are really talking about one of seventeen people in the country or something who are willing and able to work at this level with the general public.
great way to put the problem... But so the conclusion here is that there can be no "decent" alignment for an average skier Joe? There is no $200 boot equivalent to the $800 custom fitted race boot? No decent $300 ski equivalent to the $1,500 precise race ski? No hope for the guy with a $800 ski equipment budget and no high performance dreams, not trying to squeeze one more tenth of a second? There is no 80/20 in alignment?

From wverything i hear and see, the 80/20 is real. Chasing the last 20% precision in alignment takes 80% of the effort and costs, the experimenting and testing and evaluations...? Therefor the only real question is how do we define the first 80%...
post #74 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
 

 

If you were up here in Toronto, I would jump in! I'd actually suggest that alignment specialization be an option within instructor certification programs.

You are preaching to the choir here my friend!  I have been trying for years but nobody is listening.

post #75 of 77
Thread Starter 

Still looking at that fore aft alignment. This is in some new new boots on easy, slushy terrain focusing on staying aligned over both feet. Doberman 150's

http://aim-1photo.smugmug.com/Skiing/Me-at-schweitzer/37778945_8SpGLF#!i=3178578254&k=QJjTzRQ&lb=1&s=A


Edited by pdxammo - 4/14/14 at 8:37am
post #76 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

Bud, thanks. That's a constructive, sensible, and pragmatic - well, sort of, given the minor issue of an intervening continent - offer. I will think seriously about that if there's even a chance of me getting out there. (Which of course I would like to do some day anyway.) Meanwhile, it does sort of reinforce my general sense that when people here talk about "finding a competent bootfitter," they are not really talking about "the best one you can find within fifty (or a hundred or even two hundred) miles". They are really talking about one of seventeen people in the country or something who are willing and able to work at this level with the general public

17 is pushing it if we're not including Canada.

 

@qcanoe  have you heard of this guy? He's up near Sugarloaf. Not sure he's still doing work. Guy I sold my boots to sent me this photo. They're modded Alpine ski boots for hard boot snowboarding.

 

Erik Beckman

 

There's a bunch of info on his site

http://beckmannag.com/about

 

   http://beckmannag.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/DSCN1497.jpg

post #77 of 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

You are preaching to the choir here my friend!  I have been trying for years but nobody is listening.


Agreed.

 

That's why I pursued it on my own. Now I just need somewhere to practice..

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