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Thoughts on Stance and Posture - Page 3

post #61 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by spaley17 View Post



I do know that when I maintain a dynamic countered position throughout a turn, I definitely feel tension, albeit not necessarily strenuos and at transition, there is definitely an energy transfer that helps to propel me into the new turn. When I unwind the counter to early before transition, I feel the energy loss and beginning the new turn takes more effort.

i like that - hard to understand for others here except you/me/Bud), but yes, same thing. most would swear they are not counter-steering while on the track you know how much effort is required to push that handlebar to lean the thing or pick it up - same with countering.

 

same idea for beginners - if you don't know you're supposed to push it, it doesn't mean you're not actually doing it - it just means you are not aware you are doing it...

 

the cornering guru - what's hist name - built a no bullsh*t bike where you cannot lean to demonstrate the counter-steering, maybe someone should invent a no bullsh*t ski for the stuff we keep arguing :)

 

 

good one.

 

found it: http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

 

hey Bud - since we're here - some MX similarity - counteracting is like weighting the outside peg - do you need it? nope, but do YOU need it? yep. is it easy? nope.... definetly effortfull.... most are content to keeping their butt in the seat, but you know better, right?


Edited by razie - 3/18/14 at 6:50am
post #62 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

i like that - hard to understand for others here except you/me/Bud), but yes, same thing. most would swear they are not counter-steering while on the track you know how much effort is required to push that handlebar to lean the thing or pick it up - same with countering.

 

same idea for beginners - if you don't know you're supposed to push it, it doesn't mean you're not actually doing it - it just means you are not aware you are doing it...

 

the cornering guru - what's hist name - built a no bullsh*t bike where you cannot lean to demonstrate the counter-steering, maybe someone should invent a no bullsh*t ski for the stuff we keep arguing :)

 

 

good one.

 

found it: http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

 

hey Bud - since we're here - some MX similarity - counteracting is like weighting the outside peg - do you need it? nope, but do YOU need it? yep. is it easy? nope.... definetly effortfull.... most are content to keeping their butt in the seat, but you know better, right?

I understand what you are saying razie.  I notice more tension in the frontal plane than the transverse plane when turning.  In other words I feel an active pinch in my waist as my hips move inside the arc and my head remains over my feet vs. feeling a noticeable tension from any twisting of my waist from developing counter, until perhaps it's time to release into the new turn where I have the option to enlist tightening to shorten my core muscles to aid initiation.  Your thoughts?   This does relate quite nicely to m/c riding and note that flat tracking a turn is very similar on a bike and skis with respect to body position and pressure management.  Again, I feel more lateral tension and effort than rotational?

post #63 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

I understand what you are saying razie.  I notice more tension in the frontal plane than the transverse plane when turning.  In other words I feel an active pinch in my waist as my hips move inside the arc and my head remains over my feet vs. feeling a noticeable tension from any twisting of my waist from developing counter, until perhaps it's time to release into the new turn where I have the option to enlist tightening to shorten my core muscles to aid initiation.  Your thoughts?   This does relate quite nicely to m/c riding and note that flat tracking a turn is very similar on a bike and skis with respect to body position and pressure management.  Again, I feel more lateral tension and effort than rotational?

beyond angulation, i don't just tip my skis for instance to start the new turn, i also try to make them turn faster or at least engage quickly, so i use the "coiled" energy to actively dig their tips in more than otherwise - that has to be a rotational stress in my core/hips. at this point my core is uncoiling, lining up wiht the skis around the fall line - uncoiling quite forcefully though.

 

there is a coaches' drill to generate speed on flats from coiling only (instead of skating) this may point out to you all this stuff.

 

likewise when winding or coiling - i am countered to the required extent and thus stacked at the apex and resist the turning forces - can't tell what muscles - core of course, but then add the winding/coiling effort as well at the apex and which both builds tension and acts on the ski edges again to help - or am i just storing energy at this point? hmm - need snow :) but this is the Hirscher photo - exaggerated for effect... my feeling is that he's both tugging on the skis and getting ready for a massive pressure.

 

the constant movement of counter-rotating against the direction the skis are going (first to the outside then the inside) is what counter-acting is and how it helps at both the top and bottom of the turn.

 

countered - by contrast only helps when you are countered... i.e. in transition?

 

edit/

 

if i said i skid/pivot the top of the turn, you would see the advantage of ucoiling then - it would probably be more obvious - but since i am using it while carving that part, i guess it is less obvious - many don't think they need it?

 

about flat tracking it - you are pushing the bar opposite to the peg - that i guess would be the conteracting? mx bike is light, think of a road bike at much higher speeds maybe?

post #64 of 76

OK, I see your point.

 

Would you compare flat tracking on a dirt bike or road racing on a street bike more to skiing movements?  Why? How do the body positions differ and why?  I have spent many hours on dirt bikes and road bikes and notice a marked difference in turning each.  Why is that?

post #65 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

OK, I see your point.

 

Would you compare flat tracking on a dirt bike or road racing on a street bike more to skiing movements?  Why? How do the body positions differ and why?

nice one - will require some more thinking and time to type, but roughly: both tip to turn. you could skid a dirt bike just like you skid skis, but both like to track/carve.

 

my track bike (former and briefly) an R6 was like a WC race slalom ski. does nothing but carve asphalt at high speeds and tight cornering - the most work.

 

my road bike, Honda Hornet 600 is a little tamer, can't carry as much speed into corners, crappier suspension and brakes, like a master's ski.

 

my enduro bike (traded), KTM 690, is like an all mountain ski - can carve some with the 70/30 tires but can also grip some on dirt

 

my current favorite bike, a massive supermoto, KTM 990 SMT is just a freaking bear that can't wait to bite your head off as soon as you go near the throttle. or the brakes. yes, i ride some limited dirt with it because i am largely an idiot, but there's no ski like that.

 

my dirt bike, Husaberg 390 is like a fat ski for powder - all it does well is skid around... but is the most work again, like the R6.

 

------

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post

OK, I see your point.

 

I have spent many hours on dirt bikes and road bikes and notice a marked difference in turning each. Why is that?

in one word: available traction.

 

road bikes grip like nuts and thus they have big engines and are then heavier. you can manhandle them as well: pick them up and throw them into the turn, because there's enough traction you can play with or rather against. they're heavier so they require more effort to get down and/or up. they go faster so there's more inertia and gyroscopic effects and stuff to fight as well.

 

countersteering rules because of the forces involved and tons of grip at the front wheel.

 

since there is so much traction, the name of the game is angles: the lower the body, the higher the bike's angle and then the more speed you can get in the turn before you overpower the grip: 1.3g or more. grip is a function of speed, turn radius and lean angle of the bike.

 

same on a race ski on hardpack: lots of grip but since you can't get under the ski, you angulate over it to increase it's lean angle . because of the way skis actually CUT into the ice, things are a bit different i guess, but largely the same.

 

on a dirt bike, small traction available, thus small engines, light flickable bikes with narrow sand-cutting tires with dirt-gripping knobs. you skid this suckers for the most part and just manage the skid. you angulate on top of them in a flat-track turn because -little fuzzy here-.

 

less countersteering because the bike responds better to peg/weight shifting more because of lesser other inertias and masses. countersteering relies on grip of the front tire - less of here. you stick your leg out and sitt balls-to-tank to increase that grip.

 

now - moto GP guys are pushing them road bikes to the limits of traction and there, on the edge, they started using dirt biking techniques - you see them now skidding with the foot out. I do that sometimes on my 990 SMT because I am an idiot.

 

wow - too much here for a simple post. some of this stuff has been bugging me, you can tell, eh?

 

cheers

 

edit/

 

the fuzy bit - it's traction again, a litle harder to visualize.

 

on a road bike, you flick it together wit the body very fast because you have tons of grip to flick against.

 

on a dirt bike, if you flick both bike and body, you will end up in the first tree. you can flick the bike, but must keep the body up, so the combined angle is less, but you line up the bike more with the direction of the possible skid, to increase traction available.

post #66 of 76

I kinda look at it like this....tire grip and edge grip are similar, when there is ample grip we can incline more and when there is less grip or chance of losing grip we need to angulate more.  Whether power sliding on the dirt or skiing on firm snow, we need to balance over the outside peg/ski and keep the head over the outside foot to effectively manage edge/bike angles.  While I understand the concept of counter steering, we do not have handle bars to push/pull against while skiing so this leverage point is mute for skiing in my mind, though the diverging paths at initiation do share some similarities to road riding or cycling.  So if we have a good berm or dirt or snow to bank against we don't need to angulate as much perhaps as when we are on slippery dirt/snow where lateral movement is more likely and we must be better positioned to balance in these conditions?

 

My posture changes slightly with edge grip.

post #67 of 76
I'm thinking "to tip left, turn right" (the feet)--though of course it isn't necessary to actively perform this.

zenny
post #68 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

I kinda look at it like this....tire grip and edge grip are similar, when there is ample grip we can incline more and when there is less grip or chance of losing grip we need to angulate more.  Whether power sliding on the dirt or skiing on firm snow, we need to balance over the outside peg/ski and keep the head over the outside foot to effectively manage edge/bike angles.  While I understand the concept of counter steering, we do not have handle bars to push/pull against while skiing so this leverage point is mute for skiing in my mind, though the diverging paths at initiation do share some similarities to road riding or cycling.  So if we have a good berm or dirt or snow to bank against we don't need to angulate as much perhaps as when we are on slippery dirt/snow where lateral movement is more likely and we must be better positioned to balance in these conditions?

 

My posture changes slightly with edge grip.

that's a much simplified view.

 

the basic difference is leverage and inertias: while on a bike, you can leverage the pegs, the bars, the seat, the knees and action/reaction then dictate the result.

 

also, the bike in movement at speed provides inertia and grip to change posture quickly in many ways, with these levers.

 

on skis, your only leverage point is the boots... the rest is the body contorting in different ways against a bit of its own inertia. stacking against the forces of the turn takes an entirely different form because of this. lack of skis inertia makes managing the body movements much more important on skis.

 

there are situations where you can certainly get away with more inclination (like riding leisurely your bike on the street), but its usual result is smaller angles and slow turning. also loss of grip.

 

don't forget the terrain, which dictates speed, like a black, which accelerates both into and out of turns.

 

also, don't forget the terrain, like powder or better, ice - which has its own requirements and a completely different grip pattern than say hardpack or asphalt. you can grip at high speed or.... not, in which case you're out: you don't really drift on the thing :)

 

still can't figure out what's the equivalent of counter-acting on a bike - i guess there is no direct equivalent, since counteracting is specific to one single contact point (the outside foot) and the minimal inertias of skiing...

 

cheers

post #69 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

I don't feel any effort or tension in my upper body when making parallel turns:confused

"Although general sensations are widely distributed in the CNS, most of the processing occurs in centers along the sensory pathways in the spinal cord or brain stem. Only about 1 percent of the information provided by afferent fibers reaches the cerebral cortex and our conscious awareness." 

 

kind of makes one wonder what else we have no sensation of when we move/ski

 

 

http://www.as.miami.edu/chemistry/2008-1-MDC/2085/Chap-15_New/chap_15.htm

post #70 of 76
Razie, you should explore what happens when we invert/evert our feet. smile.gif

zenny
post #71 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Razie, you should explore what happens when we invert/evert our feet. smile.gif

zenny
that's countersteering's equiv on skis - bud was lookingf or that smile.gif i am looking for counteracting equiv on bike cool.gif
post #72 of 76
Well, this is a ski specific forum... biggrin.gif

zenny
post #73 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

Well, this is a ski specific forum... biggrin.gif

zenny
ha you mean just go invert and evert the feet for a while smile.gif yeah. Not into counter though duel.gif
post #74 of 76
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

that's a much simplified view.

the basic difference is leverage and inertias: while on a bike, you can leverage the pegs, the bars, the seat, the knees and action/reaction then dictate the result.

also, the bike in movement at speed provides inertia and grip to change posture quickly in many ways, with these levers.

on skis, your only leverage point is the boots... the rest is the body contorting in different ways against a bit of its own inertia. stacking against the forces of the turn takes an entirely different form because of this. lack of skis inertia makes managing the body movements much more important on skis.

there are situations where you can certainly get away with more inclination (like riding leisurely your bike on the street), but its usual result is smaller angles and slow turning. also loss of grip.

don't forget the terrain, which dictates speed, like a black, which accelerates both into and out of turns.

also, don't forget the terrain, like powder or better, ice - which has its own requirements and a completely different grip pattern than say hardpack or asphalt. you can grip at high speed or.... not, in which case you're out: you don't really drift on the thing smile.gif

still can't figure out what's the equivalent of counter-acting on a bike - i guess there is no direct equivalent, since counteracting is specific to one single contact point (the outside foot) and the minimal inertias of skiing...

cheers

When I was road cycle racing and came into a tight corner, practically all my weight would be on the outside pedal and my outside leg would be almost straight witb the pedal in the down position. The inside to the turn leg was bent with the pedal in the up position wiyh very little weight on it.

I would actively push the bars to the inside of the turn while keeping my upper body to the outside. In fact, my chest was slightky pointed to the outside. In this case, its very much like a countered position. If you leaned and weighted to the inside of the turn, your chance of slipping was great, meaning less tire grip? Keeping the focus towards the outside was the key to flying around tight criterium corners.
post #75 of 76
Thread Starter 
When I was road cycle racing and came into a tight corner, practically all my weight would be on the outside pedal and my outside leg would be almost straight witb the pedal in the down position. The inside to the turn leg was bent with the pedal in the up position wiyh very little weight on it.

I would actively push the bars to the inside of the turn while keeping my upper body to the outside. In fact, my chest was slightky pointed to the outside. In this case, its very much like a countered position. If you leaned and weighted to the inside of the turn, your chance of slipping was great, meaning less tire grip? Keeping the focus towards the outside was the key to flying around tight criterium corners.
post #76 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


ha you mean just go invert and evert the feet for a while smile.gif yeah. Not into counter though duel.gif

 

  I didn't mention anything about counter.

 

   zenny

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