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The simplicity of skiing - Page 7

post #181 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post


Oh jeeze. The forces in WC skiing g may be high, but they are still skiing "effortlessly". 

the only way I can put this is that if you haven't huffed and puffed at the bottom of one run, you were certainly not performance-skiing in that run...

 

if you are not huffing and puffing at the bottom of a scrimmage course I'm coaching, you would get an earful....

 

looking effortless is different than being effortless, is all i'm sayin'...

post #182 of 196
OK. Yes, I've skied hard enough to be breathless at the bottom of the run. That has nothing to do with anything I said other than some sort of ego stoke. If you're skiing at the level that a change in the force vectors breaks you're body, it really is "effortless". If you don't understand that, many some physics classes are in order.
post #183 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by clink83 View Post

OK. Yes, I've skied hard enough to be breathless at the bottom of the run. That has nothing to do with anything I said other than some sort of ego stoke. If you're skiing at the level that a change in the force vectors breaks you're body, it really is "effortless". If you don't understand that, many some physics classes are in order.

oh - i understand - you are saying that caryying 3-4 times your weight (like in a WC turn) is effortless if the body is not broken - nah, make sense...

 

... though maybe only on the moon, though... or on Dagobah, if you're a Jedi-in-training... 

:jedi:

 

cheers

post #184 of 196
What I'm saying is that with good technique your muscles and joints are only exposed to a fraction of the total forces generated. Your skeleton is taking most of the load, your muscles are just keeping your skeleton in place. That's why if you're technique breaks down injuries are so severe.
post #185 of 196

You guys still arguing about "effortless"? It's a turn of phrase. Why don't you just argue if the sky is blue, at least that's interesting.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post

 

Pivoting, as I work on it with learners and as I see higher level instructors use it, is turning the lower joints. There's a whole continuum of pivoting skills, from simply twisting a flat ski, to turning a femur in the hip socket in higher edge angle turns. By applying edge and pivoting in your amount of choice for your terrain, turn shape, and intent, you get steering. 

 

It seems one of the growth steps between the level 2 and 3 for a lot of my CSIA peers is recognizing the pivoting continuum, including turning the femur in the hip socket, rather than simply skidding a flat ski in the turn at transition. I think of coiling as a high level outcome of pivoting. 

 

 
.... Whether you call it pivoting or coiling or separation, it's one of your strong skills and something worth building in our learners. 

 

 

I've never heard that definition of pivoting.

I guess I would call pivoting rapidly changing the angle of the skis to the fall line. Skis are around or below critical edge angle. I suppose the first part we could just substitute "steering angle".

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

i don't really see him pivoting at all - looking at the tracks he leaves behind (perhaps more visible in the third run) - they are just a railroad track "hook" - he carved cleanly above, in and under the fall line and then just released and floated until almost the other fall line - the direction of the "in" and "out" tracks say it all - no pivoting that I can see.

 

 

 

again, it probably goes down to what we call "pivoting"... some of his turns do have a little bit of pivoting at the top of the turn, but not neccessarily on purpose, just a function of timing, edging and speed - he does ski with some power there...

I agree with jamt, there's definitely some pivoting going on. In the first turns, he's in the air sometimes and changing the direction of the skis. That's pivoting, whether intentional or not. Though he clearly intends to get the skis in that relationship.

post #186 of 196
...I also agree with Jamt. There is a small amount of pivot in JFs vid. But at least it is established in the correct phase of the turn when it can influence turn shape/line choice. I have also not heard of metaphors definition of pivoting down lower...as someone (razie?) above said femoral rotation when flexed is an edging skill, although is suppose an element of "pseudo steering" could be added with the feet to an edge-locked carved turn due to the triplaner ankle so long as the skis aren't broken loose, but there are much more effective ways of altering turn shape, IMO.

And yes, dynamic sking is tiring, but in a different way than out of balance sking.
zenny
post #187 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

And yes, dynamic sking is tiring, but in a different way than out of balance sking.
zenny

that's right - there's a bigger smile... :rotflmao:

post #188 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post

And yes, dynamic sking is tiring, but in a different way than out of balance sking.
zenny

Good skiing at the end of the day feels more like a leg day at the gym, entire leg worked evenly. (or I assume so.. never been to a gym)

 

Bad skiing at the end of the day feels like losing a fight, with all the strain focused on only a few joints and muscles battered and tired. Pinchy or twinge-y pain.


Edited by Kogu - 4/10/14 at 8:04pm
post #189 of 196

Here's pivoting per the CSIA manual:  

 

Skill - Pivoting

Pivoting is the ability to utilize the legs and feet to change direction. Whether the turns are carved or skidded, the lower body leads the turning effort. 

 

Pivoting and direction change

Turning the legs in the hip sockets is the most efficient way to place the skis across the direction of travel. Combined with the grip of the skis against the snow, this deflects the skier in their arc. The result of pivoting is separation between the upper and lower body. 

 

Pivoting and eding

Upper/lower body separation enables skiers to balance on their edges through angulation. Turning the femur in the hip socket allows the hip joint to be more mobile laterally to the inside of the turn, thus helping to balance on the edges. 

 

Pivoting and balance

Turning with the legs helps to change direction efficiently without disturbing balance. Turning the skis without hip or upper body rotation also helps create balance on the outside ski. 

 

(CSIA Manual, 4.12 - 4.13)

 

Notably absent: anything saying you must twist the skis on a flat ski, or that pivoting only happens at the beginning of the turn. Hence why I think there's a difference in nomenclature between CSIA, PSIA and even CSCF.

 

If some instructors say that pivoting is twisting the skis, then yeah, we're going to be understanding our definitions differently. (That's one of the issues I suppose Canadian instructors face in a primarily US-based forum.) For that matter, I don't want all of my learners using the PSIA version of pivoting in every turn because it wouldn't be appropriate in high performance skiing. But take heart that it's just a label; the mechanics of good skiing are the same regardless of the labels you use. 

post #190 of 196
Well, that is illuminating. I read that manual long ago but do not have it anymore. That's why you see pivoting everywhere though, because that definition encompasses all of skiing basically... I do not like it - since it fits every kind of turning with the lower feet, it describes nothing at all...

in the other drill descriptions that I know, it is used to narrowly identify the active twisting of the feet around their axis, like the pivot slip drill.

I think i will continue to describe the continuum of ski turning as pivoting (active twisting of the feet), skidding (no twisting, but no edge lock either) and carving, it is much more precise for communication, teaching and feedback. And perhaps brushing as a lighter skidding? Meh...?

Cheers
post #191 of 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Well, that is illuminating. I read that manual long ago but do not have it anymore. That's why you see pivoting everywhere though, because that definition encompasses all of skiing basically... I do not like it - since it fits every kind of turning with the lower feet, it describes nothing at all...

in the other drill descriptions that I know, it is used to narrowly identify the active twisting of the feet around their axis, like the pivot slip drill.

I think i will continue to describe the continuum of ski turning as pivoting, skidding  and carving, it is much more precise for communication, teaching and feedback. 

 

The funny thing is the continuum that you described is a range of pivoting skills at various stages of refinement, with a blending of edging skills at the higher end. 

 

I think the definition of pivoting makes more sense once you know the definition of edging. Edging in CSIA parlance is just how much the ski is tipped on edge. The edging skill, in CSIA parlance, does assess turning of the joints. Skiers who stay square to their skis throughout the entire turn can use a lot of edging skills, but no pivoting skills. 

 

In the CSIA model, all the skills work together. A good skier wouldn't just ski with edging, or just ski with pivoting. 

 

Anyway, under your definitions and the PSIA folks' definitions, I suppose you're right that you're not using any pivoting, so... shrug shrug.

post #192 of 196
Right - so the only ones that make sense to me so far are CSCF's steering, which is to get the skis pointing in the direction thy should be pointing, somehow, unspecified how (other than carving they don't specify any other specific movement for steering, but allow for any and all possibilities, as long as they get the skis pointing) and the PMTS which has no such notions, specifically saying no rotation, no pivoting, just brushing and carving.

Your notion of pivoting alludes more to CSCF's separation, which is not about turning the skis... but managing the upper body in relation to the implicitly turning lower body, more similar to counteraction than anything. In that respect, the pivoting is more similar to psia's grammatically incorrect "rotary".

Maybe we're getting somewhere by throwing all these different systems in the mix... they all have different points of view and dictionaries and movement categories, but like you say, good skiing is good skiing period.

But in terms of communication, this is a basic principle: the more specific a term, the more valuable... and the more specifically you define and describe a movement, the more value for all parties - I like to use precise, narrowly defined terms... so if i would ever give someone the feedback or instruction of "more pivoting at the x time" or "less pivoting at the transition" they would know exactly and precisely what i am talking about, but without falling to the extreme of lining up "a little more dorsiflexion followed by no twisting of the left femur...".


Cheers

Edit/ps
In fact, my season's plan started with defining the dictionary and communication with the kids - put a lot of thought into that to avoid fuzziness and confusion...
post #193 of 196

This isn't complicated.

1) Sit on a chairlift. Point your skis left and right. That's rotary from the knees down. The femur is still involved.

2) Go to a bar. Stand on two bar stools. Point feet left and right. That's rotary from the hips down.

 

Both are steering.

 

#2 is what's taught. That's also the separation upper/lower body talked about.

I use #1 all the time too.

    #1 Example: In a turn, want to slow down before a knoll you can't see over. Relax the edge, steer the skis in towards the center, aka "pivot", drift, then back to an edge. Most of it comes from below the knee if you do it while flexed. Can be done standing obviously too like a racer's stivot. Loads of fun.


Edited by Tog - 4/10/14 at 9:20pm
post #194 of 196

CSIA's definitions are specific. I can see how they'd come across funny to folks who have: 

  • tried to force one single CSIA definition into a different model without understanding the Canadian approach (it's like complaining that the legos don't fit into your domino set)
  • spent all of five minutes skimming those definitions

 

Honestly, if you can dismiss one of the most respected systems in ski teaching based on a few minutes of half-assed discussion... well... go ahead... 

post #195 of 196

ah I see you posted the definitions above. Yes, very different. Is there a definition of steering?

post #196 of 196

no worries - this has been raging on for over a week in this thread and http://www.epicski.com/t/127232/rethinking-psias-skills-approach and others. - I spent too many hours I realize now, studying and trying to make sense of rotary and pivoting - both of which don't even help me with my goals, as markojp succintly put it - with the sole purpose of trying to advance our collective understanding... 

 

cheers

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