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Body Position During Long Turns

post #1 of 26
Thread Starter 

 

I saw this video today, and it got me thinking.  When I ski, I use a variety of techniques for longer turns.  I guess it just depends on what I'm trying to do.  

 

I go back and forth between letting my upper body follow my skis, like in this video, and keeping my upper body facing down the hill.  

 

I think I would tend towards keeping my upper body facing down the hill in a racing environment, where I want to be looking at the next few gates.  This feels like it is a more aggressive approach.  GS comes to mind here.  Might not apply as much to Super G and Downhill.  

 

When free skiing, I find myself letting my upper body follow my skis because my line is not predetermined.  As my line changes, the direction I want to be facing changes with it.  If my goal is to ski across a trail, there is no sense in facing down the hill.  

 

I'm interested to hear what everyone else thinks.

post #2 of 26
I tend to do the same. I don't position my body dependent on my turns so much as to my destination. If I'm going to the bottom of a trail, I face my body there. If I'm going "over there", I face my body "over there". Sort of just facing into the general direction of where I'm going.
post #3 of 26

That's by far the best skiing I've seen out of a BASI demonstrator, although that's not saying much. 

 

"Outside hand following outside ski" coaches rotation, and not surprisingly he has little ski performance as a result. 

post #4 of 26
I guess I should have watched the video before I commented. That just looks lazy or sloppy to me.
post #5 of 26

The drill he puts forth is just a terrible drill. First off, there are just too many things that can go wrong with it, and a student could get too many wrong impressions from it. The "outside hand following the ski" sounds like using the upper body to turn. He goes on to say "Don't do it this way, don't cross your hand over your skis". Then he goes on to say how you put your other hand on your thigh to keep your upper body from turning toward the inside of the turn. However, putting your inside hand on your thigh isn't going to do anything from stopping a student from turning his upper body toward the inside of the turn. The part about your outside hand going with the ski encourages upper body rotation toward the inside of the turn. A good drill should make the student perform the intended outcome just by the nature of the drill. This drill would almost always be performed incorrectly, and would be detrimental to the student's skiing.

 

The other thing at issue is the idea that the skier should be stacked over the skis at all times. If you watch him ski, his skiing is static and stiff. If he actually utilized some counter in his turns, he could become more dynamic, engage the skis at a higher edge angle, and derive more power from the ski. As it is, he is skiing in a way that's barely above an open parallel, edge locked carve.

 

If this is what BASI is teaching its instructors, it's no wonder British skiers have had zero success on the WC and Olympic stage.

post #6 of 26
That drill also guarantees absence of angulation.
post #7 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

The drill he puts forth is just a terrible drill. First off, there are just too many things that can go wrong with it, and a student could get too many wrong impressions from it. The "outside hand following the ski" sounds like using the upper body to turn. He goes on to say "Don't do it this way, don't cross your hand over your skis". Then he goes on to say how you put your other hand on your thigh to keep your upper body from turning toward the inside of the turn. However, putting your inside hand on your thigh isn't going to do anything from stopping a student from turning his upper body toward the inside of the turn. The part about your outside hand going with the ski encourages upper body rotation toward the inside of the turn. A good drill should make the student perform the intended outcome just by the nature of the drill. This drill would almost always be performed incorrectly, and would be detrimental to the student's skiing.

 

The other thing at issue is the idea that the skier should be stacked over the skis at all times. If you watch him ski, his skiing is static and stiff. If he actually utilized some counter in his turns, he could become more dynamic, engage the skis at a higher edge angle, and derive more power from the ski. As it is, he is skiing in a way that's barely above an open parallel, edge locked carve.

 

If this is what BASI is teaching its instructors, it's no wonder British skiers have had zero success on the WC and Olympic stage.

I don't like this drill either, but there's no need for the dig on BASI or British skiers, we're not successful at skiing because we don't really have any mountains, or any funding for a ski team, not because one guy put out an average instructional video. Plus, looking at your profile picture, you could really do with skiing more stacked and dumping your hip less. 

post #8 of 26
I used watch this guy's videos before I found Josh Foster's Ski Tips series. This guy always seemed more still to me.
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post
 

I don't like this drill either, but there's no need for the dig on BASI or British skiers, we're not successful at skiing because we don't really have any mountains, or any funding for a ski team, not because one guy put out an average instructional video. Plus, looking at your profile picture, you could really do with skiing more stacked and dumping your hip less. 

 

Ski racers in the US routinely travel to Colorado and Utah to train. Colorado and Utah are further from the East Coast of the US than the Alps are from the UK. And do you know how much public funding the US Ski Team receives? Zero. The USOC and its constituent teams receive no public funding.

 

And yes, my hip in that picture is dumped. I can pick apart my own skiing just fine, thanks. Not every turn we make as skiers is perfect. Not even the best skiers. However, I know and teach to an effective form. I don't perform bad drills and teach to an ineffective form.

post #10 of 26
I agree with TreeFiter. Most of the time I ski with my body down the hill, especially when skiing aggressively and fast, but on a run which is unfamiliar or stacked with people, I'm more likely to follow my turn so I can see variances in the terrain and more easily spot others in my path.
post #11 of 26
The videos are meant for new skiers to learn some basic techniques, not for level 10 and 11 skiers on epic to pick apart, just saying, and I think they do well for their intended purpose.

I also somewhat agrees with "stay more stacked during long turns" from my experience. When a turn is made more complete (i.e. closer to 180°), facing down the hill would requires too much rotation and would end up throw myself off balance.
post #12 of 26
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

The videos are meant for new skiers to learn some basic techniques, not for level 10 and 11 skiers on epic to pick apart, just saying, and I think they do well for their intended purpose.

I agree with your point, but in all fairness, the video does claim to be expert level.

post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

The videos are meant for new skiers to learn some basic techniques, not for level 10 and 11 skiers on epic to pick apart, just saying, and I think they do well for their intended purpose.
I agree with your point, but in all fairness, the video does claim to be expert level.

Have you watched his series of video? The lessons are structured into beginner, intermediate, and expert, and the level definition is definitely aimed at the general skier population.
post #14 of 26

Strange choice of drill.  Just like any drill, you need to get feed back on how you are performing the drill.  He is talking about long turns, the upper body follows the legs a bit more, but the turning effort is still from the lower body.

post #15 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

Ski racers in the US routinely travel to Colorado and Utah to train. Colorado and Utah are further from the East Coast of the US than the Alps are from the UK. And do you know how much public funding the US Ski Team receives? Zero. The USOC and its constituent teams receive no public funding.

And yes, my hip in that picture is dumped. I can pick apart my own skiing just fine, thanks. Not every turn we make as skiers is perfect. Not even the best skiers. However, I know and teach to an effective form. I don't perform bad drills and teach to an ineffective form.

What's your point? Are you actually trying to argue that British skiers are worse than US ones because we have worse instructing? Not you having nearly 500 ski areas compared to our 5 (in Scotland)?
post #16 of 26

Nice skiing!

post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

If this is what BASI is teaching its instructors, it's no wonder British skiers have had zero success on the WC and Olympic stage.

I saw members of the US ski team using this drill when training at Cardrona, Wanaka in your off-season last year. I think they did ok at the Olympics. 

post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2meke View Post
 

I saw members of the US ski team using this drill when training at Cardrona, Wanaka in your off-season last year. I think they did ok at the Olympics. 

If they were the slalom team, not much better than the GBR representative...

post #19 of 26
I'm guessing you saw a Scholpy drill... Tough to find a good vid of it done properly though. It's not really the same thing as the OPs vid link.
post #20 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim. View Post

If they were the slalom team, not much better than the GBR representative...

Jim, really? I understand the point you're making, but did you you not see the top of the women's SL podium? smile.gif


'Course the bigger mystery is why Japan has never had more than a couple top seed SL skiers. They really have no excuse.
post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

'Course the bigger mystery is why Japan has never had more than a couple top seed SL skiers. They really have no excuse.

I suspect cultural differences. Not sure sports rate highly over education there. I've always had reports of lots of epic pow days so maybe the snow is too good and too soft to produce racers. They do have some good snowboarders in the pipe!

Canadians racers this olympics didn't fare well. Pretty hot in the freestyle though.
post #22 of 26

I think different countries have different ski styles as a basis of their national instruction standards. One ski style favours mogul skiing, some other might favour downhill skiing, I guess. I'm no instructor, but I can see the differnces between these varied styles. Have a look at this video, which nicely portraits the different ski styles...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rtzwqDeSGg

post #23 of 26

Isn't there some competition where instructors from different countries compete based on their style?

post #24 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Jim, really? I understand the point you're making, but did you you not see the top of the women's SL podium? smile.gif


'Course the bigger mystery is why Japan has never had more than a couple top seed SL skiers. They really have no excuse.

Yeah, not Mikaela! In mens Nolan Kasper came 13th, whilst Dave Ryding was 17th, which I think is pretty good given that he grew up in a country without snow. Yeah, not sure why the Japanese don't have better racers, maybe it's because their instructors teach whole body inclination and upper body rotation as well ;)

post #25 of 26
When I was living in Kanazawa, the local HS race kids NEVER just free skied.
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by voghan View Post
 

Isn't there some competition where instructors from different countries compete based on their style?

 

It's called Interski. It's not a competition, more of a collaboration. 

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