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When did Ski Reality become Irrelevant? - Page 2

post #31 of 186

I see nothing wrong with the question.  It's like the Hollywood question: why do action films get all the money & attention, and why don't more morally complex, subtle, relationship-driven (or whatever) films get noticed.  (Though of course they do, Hollywood being bigger and richer than the ski film industry.)  

 

There should be room for both the glamor boy film that excites the wannabes and other kinds of film, too, but it's ski porn that makes money.  The rest of us tired, old-fashioned, grizzled, out-of-date grumpy whiners can go to YouTube.

post #32 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

The rest of us tired, old-fashioned, grizzled, out-of-date grumpy whiners can go to YouTube.

I have uploaded quite the extensive library of old-fashioned grizzled grump mogul skiing videos on YouTube, but you're probably not going to see me blogging about how they deserve more attention any time soon. We had our day; time to step aside and let the current crop of talent basque in the limelight. The attention, or lack thereof have no bearing on my continued enjoyment of the sport.

 

Know your station in life, and embrace it. I fully embrace my nobody status; the smack-talk is stricktly to indulge my own brand of juvenile humor.

post #33 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post

Great view points and good discussion. Keep em coming, I have some thoughts that have been rattling around in my head that I am trying to organize that both agree with the article and some of the counter points too.

Thanks Phil.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

post #34 of 186

I'm not sure I'd blog anything, but I can relate when someone says ski porn seems irrelevant.  It's irrelevant to me.  Minecraft videos seem irrelevant to me, too, though my son loves them, and they're the big coming thing, and, etc.  They're not as puzzling as, say, exciting developments in the genetics of satin breeding, so riveting to mouse fanciers, but they don't mean much to me.

post #35 of 186

I think it is worth pointing out that for many of us, what is shown in ski porn isn't THAT far away from the kind of skiing we do.

 

Current TGR-style ski porn is blower snow, alpine, spinewalls, cliffs, off piste. That also happens to be the kind of skiing that lots and lots and lots of people do in the West. Sure, it is on another level in size, and the technical nature, but I don't think the presumed "disconnect" is actually there, at least speaking from the perspective of somebody who skis a snowy ski area in the West.

 

It is like the campfire guitar player and Jimmy Page. The guy playing the guitar beside the campfire probably will not ever play like Page, but that doesn't mean he doesn't play well enough to appreciate the hell out of watching Page perform. Ditto for your typical off-piste Western skier compared to a TGR flick.

 

I would feel more of a disconnect is ski porn was still all about moguls and I was still skiing what I ski. And don't get me wrong, I'm not tooting my own horn, cause I'm kind of a mess when it comes to skiing proficiently. I'm the campfire player that can usually hit the right chord.

post #36 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

I think it is worth pointing out that for many of us, what is shown in ski porn isn't THAT far away from the kind of skiing we do.

 

Current TGR-style ski porn is blower snow, alpine, spinewalls, cliffs, off piste. That also happens to be the kind of skiing that lots and lots and lots of people do in the West. Sure, it is on another level in size, and the technical nature, but I don't think the presumed "disconnect" is actually there, at least speaking from the perspective of somebody who skis a snowy ski area in the West.

 

It is like the campfire guitar player and Jimmy Page. The guy playing the guitar beside the campfire probably will not ever play like Page, but that doesn't mean he doesn't play well enough to appreciate the hell out of watching Page perform. Ditto for your typical off-piste Western skier compared to a TGR flick.

 

I would feel more of a disconnect is ski porn was still all about moguls and I was still skiing what I ski. And don't get me wrong, I'm not tooting my own horn, cause I'm kind of a mess when it comes to skiing proficiently. I'm the campfire player that can usually hit the right chord.

Very nicely put Jeff.  Thanks for the feedback and just appreciate that you're taking the time to contribute to the conversation.  I totally get where you're coming from and only regret I have'nt made it down to WC to join you for some of this San Juan goodness.

 

But keep in mind that the gist of the article involves the way our sport is being marketed by both media and manufacturers, There is no doubt that the current media appeals to a skier like yourself and many others. But you and the type of skiing that you do still represents a small minority of the total "skier day" population nationwide.

 

To think that everything is hunky dory and that there's no need to entertain different angles in any business model is a risky road to take.  All I said in the article was "Maybe we could just reign it in a bit".

post #37 of 186
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

Well, I'm wondering how many are turned on by that stuff vs. how many are scared off by that stuff. Let's look at how much impact "mom" has on choices of where the family goes on vacation. Do you think moms want to jump off cliffs? Not hardly, because scars aren't cool for moms and someone has to get the kids ready for school. Those cliff jumping things attract the testosterone crowd, not the crowd bringing a family on vacation. And who is dropping the bucks? Pretty sure the testosterone crowd pays less for their lodging, less for their equipment, less for their tickets.

But Mom and Dad desperately want the kids to like skiing (see thread where 15 year bails on boring family ski trips with 'rents) and free skiing and parks and tricks are what the kids like.  Maybe the "testosterone" does't pay the bills but if the kids bail out, the ski trips tail off fast as does the future of the sport.

 

Skiing Saturday and saw at least two classes of young kids learning to do tricks, just jumps and stuff, but clearly 10-15 small kids who talked Mom and Dad into GOING SKIING and BUYING GEAR and BUYING LESSONS so I CAN SKI LIKE JOSS.

 

So advertisers and event organizers have it all right.

 

As for the elderly (over 30), skiing is like golf and fishing, it's an infinite sport where your real competition is yourself and getting better and better.  Watching the free ski Sherpa movies is great stuff for kids of all ages even if it means just keep moving forward.

 

post #38 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritzski View Post

 

But keep in mind that the gist of the article involves the way our sport is being marketed by both media and manufacturers, There is no doubt that the current media appeals to a skier like yourself and many others. But you and the type of skiing that you do still represents a small minority of the total "skier day" population nationwide.

 

Maybe what I do is a small minority of skiing, but I don't think it is a stretch to say that the majority of skiing sees Western North American skiing as aspirational, and by extension, ski porn.

 

The contention that marketers are leading people astray by the shift to fatter, off-piste oriented skis and off piste ski porn belies the fact that the off-piste skis appear to be converting snowboarders back to skiing for essentially the first time since the snowboard was invented. People like these skis because they are far more versatile than skis used to be. Sure, a 115 waist ski in the east doesn't make much sense for 98% of eastern ski conditions, but 85-90 waist skis serve great.  An 85-90 ski was a "fat ski" by Western standards 15 years ago.

 

The reality as I see it is the commonly held pinnacle of skiing has gone from ski racing, as it was from 1930-2000, to off-piste skiing, and the marketing and ski movies have shifted to keep up with that. If you think this image is pushing people out of the sport, why is downhill skiing at 90 mph not blamed for the same?

post #39 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

The contention that marketers are leading people astray by the shift to fatter, off-piste oriented skis and off piste ski porn belies the fact that the off-piste skis appear to be converting snowboarders back to skiing for essentially the first time since the snowboard was invented.

 

Teen twin tipper in front of me in singles line.  Sticker on his helmet.

 

"Your Mom rides a snowboard".

post #40 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritzski View Post

All I said in the article was "Maybe we could just reign it in a bit".
Nice back-pedal. Try that in the bumps and maybe someone will pay attention to you.
post #41 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post
 

 

Precisely what I hope my 14 year old doesn't do.

post #42 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

 

Precisely what I hope my 14 year old doesn't do.

No 14 year olds do that or play in the NBA or MLB or NFL.

 

You seem to be missing the aspiration to the pinnacle and the 20 years of family skiing the kid would do to work towards a worthy goal of skiing excellence.

 

It's the journey that's the key.  Advertising the pinnacle gets a lot of kids to take the journey and parents, particularly ski parents, should hope they do.

post #43 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post
 

No 14 year olds do that or play in the NBA or MLB or NFL.

 

You seem to be missing the aspiration to the pinnacle and the 20 years of family skiing the kid would do to work towards a worthy goal of skiing excellence.

 

It's the journey that's the key.  Advertising the pinnacle gets a lot of kids to take the journey and parents, particularly ski parents, should hope they do.

 

K, but, actually, I don't want him aspiring to death-wish skiing.  I have only one child, and it's boring to say so, but I want him to outlive me.  I'd prefer he got his thrills excelling at slalom or gs.  Sorry, but this looks more like playing chicken than playing.  

 

If he died, I'd die, and I'm not ready for that, thanks.

post #44 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritzski View Post
 

Very nicely put Jeff.  Thanks for the feedback and just appreciate that you're taking the time to contribute to the conversation.  I totally get where you're coming from and only regret I have'nt made it down to WC to join you for some of this San Juan goodness.

 

But keep in mind that the gist of the article involves the way our sport is being marketed by both media and manufacturers, There is no doubt that the current media appeals to a skier like yourself and many others. But you and the type of skiing that you do still represents a small minority of the total "skier day" population nationwide.

 

To think that everything is hunky dory and that there's no need to entertain different angles in any business model is a risky road to take.  All I said in the article was "Maybe we could just reign it in a bit".

 

I didn't read it as "let's reign it in a bit" which ultimately translates as "let's make sure our ski porn gets worse"- ultimately the world will be full of Valhalla style videos of hippie dancing with the odd token skiing coda.  How do you want the industry to be marketing "Here's a ski , it does lots of things sort of ok but doesn't excel at anything but that's ok because you're just an average mediocre skier"?  "You're not very interested in skiing but you take a few days break out west or the odd weekend each year, you ski whatever the rental slinger throws at you, but hey, you're the majority of skier numbers so here's something incredibly specific and focused at you - the Rental Punter 3000X?"

post #45 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 

K, but, actually, I don't want him aspiring to death-wish skiing.  I have only one child, and it's boring to say so, but I want him to outlive me.  I'd prefer he got his thrills excelling at slalom or gs.  Sorry, but this looks more like playing chicken than playing.  

 

If he died, I'd die, and I'm not ready for that, thanks.


Death wish skiing? I would say people who ski bigger lines, drop cliffs, and do inverted aerials in the park are way more calculated than the beater who flies off the groom in to a tree. These people also train their bodies, and technique as well. I think you are just spewing without having any real conceptual notion of what you are criticizing.

post #46 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritzski View Post

Very nicely put Jeff.  Thanks for the feedback and just appreciate that you're taking the time to contribute to the conversation.  I totally get where you're coming from and only regret I have'nt made it down to WC to join you for some of this San Juan goodness.

 

But keep in mind that the gist of the article involves the way our sport is being marketed by both media and manufacturers, There is no doubt that the current media appeals to a skier like yourself and many others. But you and the type of skiing that you do still represents a small minority of the total "skier day" population nationwide.

 

To think that everything is hunky dory and that there's no need to entertain different angles in any business model is a risky road to take.  All I said in the article was "Maybe we could just reign it in a bit".

 



Can you point to any sport that the marketing represents the average users day? Hell even golf markets with "extremes" about how their golf ball or golf club is allowing pros to hit further and improve their game when in reality you could give me a pair of wood clubs and I would probably only do marginally worse and I know for sure the golf ball I use makes absolutely no difference beyond a fashion statement.

Marketing is about selling ideas not reality, it always has been and always will. Consumers want to think if I wear these sneakers I'll play b ball like MJ, if I wear these clothes I'll be succesful, if I dirve this car I'll be a ladies man, if I buy this lingerie I'll be sexy. No one wants to buy a product they think will be associated with mediocrity
post #47 of 186
I'm glad nobody ever gets hurt in SL or GS.
post #48 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveJazz View Post
 

It's fun to watch people flipping 150 feet through the air on skis. This stuff is on TV for the same reason the NFL is on TV and not some guys tossing a ball around in a field. 


Fun to watch even when it's not from a pros camera!

post #49 of 186

Okay, so the Sammy Carlson skiers are unreal.  Here is a list of short videos that are reality from average folks. 

post #50 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post
 


Death wish skiing? I would say people who ski bigger lines, drop cliffs, and do inverted aerials in the park are way more calculated than the beater who flies off the groom in to a tree. These people also train their bodies, and technique as well. I think you are just spewing without having any real conceptual notion of what you are criticizing.

 

 

Clearly.  Just like stuntmen who catch air in cars.  They're all true athletes, and they should be admired.  I'm not criticizing them.  They aren't like the rest of us, because they need more to get a thrill (there are studies).

 

When my wife was pregnant with my son, I was driving home one night after work.   Ahead was 16 year old boy who had been practicing jumping his car over the old railroad grade at the crest of the hill.  All I saw was headlights, and then the side of his mother's Subaru sliding sideways at 70 toward my truck  (in a 35 zone) .  He was blown out his side window and died on the way to the hospital.  I saw his parents in the emergency room.

 

Ok.  Boys will be boys.  If you train them well, they'll be safe enough.  But sometimes they're not, especially when they're trying it at home.  All I remember is his parents' faces.  

 

I don't mind if my son blows a knee or breaks a leg.  That's his prerogative, not that I'll like it.  And if he were really into it, I'd let him train to jump and do flips, and anything you could wish.  But I don't really see the point, and if he did decide to make a career doing ski porn, or racing cars for that matter, I'd be on pills.

 

Just my opinion.  Who am I to criticize?

post #51 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

 

 

Clearly.  Just like stuntmen who catch air in cars.  They're all true athletes, and they should be admired.  I'm not criticizing them.  They aren't like the rest of us, because they need more to get a thrill (there are studies).

 

When my wife was pregnant with my son, I was driving home one night after work.   Ahead was 16 year old boy who had been practicing jumping his car over the old railroad grade at the crest of the hill.  All I saw was headlights, and then the side of his mother's Subaru sliding sideways at 70 toward my truck  (in a 35 zone) .  He was blown out his side window and died on the way to the hospital.  I saw his parents in the emergency room.

 

Ok.  Boys will be boys.  If you train them well, they'll be safe enough.  But sometimes they're not, especially when they're trying it at home.  All I remember is his parents' faces.  

 

I don't mind if my son blows a knee or breaks a leg.  That's his prerogative, not that I'll like it.  And if he were really into it, I'd let him train to jump and do flips, and anything you could wish.  But I don't really see the point, and if he did decide to make a career doing ski porn, or racing cars for that matter, I'd be on pills.

 

Just my opinion.  Who am I to criticize?

 



What's the point of anything? enjoyment.

If your stressing this much about what could happen, I'd hate to see what you would do if your kid decided to do something like join the military...

I get it parents worry I know I have caused mine all kinds of stress but kids will be kids and my opinion from my life experiences is that kids especially boys are gunna do stupid things better to teach them good enough judgement to know the difference between stupid and suicide than try and protect them from everything. When I eventually have my own kids I'm sure my point of view will change radically but that's how I feel right now


And this isn't aimed at you just a general statement but if you don't have enough influence over your kids to teach them the difference between pro sports and normal people or reality vs t.v than the tv adds/ski porn aren't the real problem
post #52 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 

K, but, actually, I don't want him aspiring to death-wish skiing.  I have only one child, and it's boring to say so, but I want him to outlive me.  I'd prefer he got his thrills excelling at slalom or gs.  Sorry, but this looks more like playing chicken than playing.  

 

More of a life wish, people with superior skills testing them against equal challenges.   Every skier aspires to be that good.  Your kid should also, probably does.

 

A small handful out of millions get to that point.  

 

Point is that without the inspiration of what is possible the kids don't get into it in the first place.  Idea that you want to advertise skiing dull as boring so your kid doesn't try to be the best seems a poor lesson.

 

To the point of this thread, advertisers have it right in showing the pinnacle.

post #53 of 186

I think there is an entire angle to this issue that has been missed so far. 

 

People like to watch NASCAR (God help them... it put's me to sleep), but you don't see them driving around at 300 MPH on the highway.  Not even 110, which is pretty well within the reach of most modern vehicles.  But what they do want is to play the "safe" kiddie version, the closed course formula 1 track for business execs, the go-cart track with no governors, that new track game for the PS3, etc. 

 

You have some skate boarders who will do ridiculous stuff anywhere they can find a challenge (I can't relate to them either as I never cared for broken bones).  Then you have the rest of them who are out there having a blast in the city skate park grinding on a certified and inspected rail and that little 6 inch ramp the city built in the middle of the park.  When you go back to the early days of mass snowboarding as it took off int the 90s, I was out there trying it, and let me tell you it was a lot less painful than skate boarding...  There is some guy who says he took up snowboarding because he missed skateboarding during winter.  Well, the rest of us were just thrilled to get some snow up our coats instead of a bad case of road rash. 

 

Just like Disney Land gives you a chance to pretend you are riding on a rocket ship to outer space (and deep down you trust that they would not endanger your life ... at least not without adequate insurance to compensate you for your loss), you have many hills that were struggling years ago now doing booming business because they've been able to manufacture "safe" trick parks, where you can pull a 360 without much to worry about (like trees and cliffs) and grind that nice wide rail that's about 10" off the soft snowy ground.  These places would never be able to run a GS with the terrain they have, but they can blow snow on a few pieces of pipe and the ticket sales go up, up, up.  My local hill with 200 ft. of vertical has one of those mega jumps like in the OP's picture.  Only they set it up with an air bag so you don't need to land it to survive.  I've even thought of giving it a try, then I remember that my chiropractor doesn't work on Sundays.

 

That's my take on the trick side of things at least.  Back country extreme is a different animal.  The closest thing I ever did to that was skiing Mt. Washington in the 90s.   We hiked for what seemed like hours.  My skis were constantly sliding around on my pack and jamming me in the thighs.  Once we got there, we were saying out loud how "AWESOME!" it was. And there was the pure adrenaline rush from being somewhere that wasn't certified safe and insured over. But the actual skiing was actually like ... "meh".  The bowl was like Disney Land full of people.  The chutes were pretty short.  Definitely nothing like what you saw people doing out west in the out-of-bounds videos of the day with nothing but trees and virgin powder.   And even if there had been, there was no "GoPro" video to show off afterwards.  I got my t-shirt and moved on. 

 

Which gets to the point that I don't think marketing and hype beyond realistic expectation diminishes the sport.  There will be many kids who are disappointed that they can't get the vertical or land the tricks that their TV counterparts are doing.  But that disappointment won't necessarily turn them off to the sport, which, face it, for most novices is about showing off relative to the other people on the hill on a particular day.  And if you can't land a better trick than that guy over there, you can always dump you money on cooler gear (no doubt why neon pink and green is making a come back folks!)

post #54 of 186
 
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post

 

Ok.  Boys will be boys.  If you train them well, they'll be safe enough.  

 

So when a kid gets hurt it's always the parents fault for not "training" them well enough?

 

As if all kids can be "trained" to act the way their parents want them too!!!!!

post #55 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

So when a kid gets hurt it's always the parents fault for not "training" them well enough?

 

As if all kids can be "trained" to act the way their parents want them too!!!!!

 

Umm I'm pretty sure he meant like life threatening injury

post #56 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf210 View Post
 

 

Umm I'm pretty sure he meant like life threatening injury

 

Makes no difference. You still can't "train" all kids to not take life threatening risks. Look at his track jumping story. Most kids not only don't take their parents advice, they actively rebel against it. Nothing new there.

post #57 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrGolfAnalogy View Post
 

 

Makes no difference. You still can't "train" all kids to not take life threatening risks. Look at his track jumping story. Most kids not only don't take their parents advice, they actively rebel against it. Nothing new there.

 

 

So, if I'm reading you right, you're suggesting it's fine -- good ol' junior, chip off the old block -- to let a kid to drive 70 in a 35 zone for kicks?  Free country, right?  Don't tread on that manly, risk-taking, all-American, do-it-yourself, glory-seeking impulse, right?  

 

I was lucky I was driving a truck and not the Mazda Protege I normally drove, because my kid wouldn't have had a dad.  (Of course, I guess, MrGoldAnalogy, it's patriotic duty not to object to that.)

 

All kids are going to take risks -- you can't and you shouldn't try to train that out of them.  (If you'd read my post carefully, you'd have seen I was saying that.)  Kids can take reasonable risks, though -- which means training them how to do it well.  My son wants to do aerials, and the local mountain has an airbag.  Ok, I'll go there.  Not that it makes me happy.

 

So I'm checking out of this thread -- but I've got to say, MrGolfAnalogy, it's pretty crass of you to use the death of this kid -- it was pretty tragic -- to make a ill-informed point about over-protective parents.

post #58 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by lakespapa View Post
 

 MrGolfAnalogy, it's pretty crass of you to use the death of this kid -- it was pretty tragic -- to make a ill-informed point about over-protective parents.

 

Wasn't it you who did that, using the story of an auto accident to make an ill informed point about advertising the world's best skiers to get people interested in taking up skiing?

post #59 of 186

Okay.  Maybe the kids who are the future of keeping ski resorts open will aspire to be like us old guys.  I look up to all the folks older than me.  I aspire to be them one day, but may not live that long.  Even many of the "race" kids today take risk in the parks.  Also be it GS SG or SL one can still get hurt really bad.  Any skiing is always a risk of severe injury.

Must see first minute and a half.

post #60 of 186

I don't know what this media for the middle ground would even look like. Would it be average skiers just skiing about, because there's a tonne of that already around, just open youtube. If you want to see big budget productions featuring mediocre skiing it's just never going to happen, everyone wants to see what the best skiers can do is. When I shoot video or photos I know that if I am not scaring myself, the feature isn't going to look cool. The movies that get made now are inspiring, I am sure that I would never have tried half the stuff I can do now without videos to let me know it's possible. 

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