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MA for a Perpetual Intermediate - please and thanks! - Page 3

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post


I wish the Austrians had originally said, "bend the ankles, five dollars please."  If they had, Americans skiers would understand fore aft balance better.   YM

You have to remember that was when the boots were soft and the ankles actual could bend easily smile.gif. Most skiers when you say bend the ankles can't enough, so you say get forward and they bend at the waist at the same time bending the knees net effect zero at best. When I want my kids to get forward I say stand up and lean forward, while not the ideal position, it does teach the forward feel after which stance can be corrected as needed.

For me skiing is about feel, you understand that evrything else with the occasional guidance falls into place.
post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 

I find that a lot of lower level instructors don't fully understand stance width because of the way the programs are set up to teach.  Stance width is dynamic and depends on what and how you are skiing at that moment.  So how do you argue this with instructors that push you in two different directions.  Here is your answer....from a level 4 CSIA instructor.  Also, here is the reply I got from a level 3 instructor who I sent the video too for the same reason.

 

Yes, you can narrow your stance based on terrain but  he is still able to move his lower body to the inside to create the edge and steer the skiis.  They are not totally together.  This is very high end stuff. 

 

My reply was upon seeing her, Yes, and that's why I ski the way I do.

 

IMHO if you are balanced, edging, stable and comfortable it is likely the right width.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by XLTL View Post

I have wondered whether canting might help my stance. I often have to remind myself to narrow my stance width while skiing. Is there a simple home or on slope test I can do to check this?

Is it nature or nurture?  That's the $1000 question.  If I skied with you and watched how you ski and what sort of input you used to turn your skis I would have a better idea.  I could put cant test strips under your boots and look for changes in your stance while you ski.  I could test your ability to balance on one ski and make snake turns on one foot. I could observe your ability to traverse the slope on your BTE and LTE's.   I could look at your stance in your boots on a flat floor and see what your stance looks like.  If you can find someone in your area who is experienced with alignment on and off the snow you could be easily checked.    Worth a try.  Just remember that not everybody is good at their job.  YM

post #63 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post


You have to remember that was when the boots were soft and the ankles actual could bend easily smile.gif. Most skiers when you say bend the ankles can't enough, so you say get forward and they bend at the waist at the same time bending the knees net effect zero at best. When I want my kids to get forward I say stand up and lean forward, while not the ideal position, it does teach the forward feel after which stance can be corrected as needed.

For me skiing is about feel, you understand that evrything else with the occasional guidance falls into place.


You could also teach them to how to strongly do the foot pull back move which produces strong ankle dorsi flexion, moves the feet hips ahead of the feet with out the risk of bending at the waist and moving the bum back as you stated.  YM

post #64 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post
 


You could also teach them to how to strongly do the foot pull back move which produces strong ankle dorsi flexion, moves the feet hips ahead of the feet with out the risk of bending at the waist and moving the bum back as you stated.  YM


Yes, but that only works for one foot the and usually causes and inside foot smear, stand up and lean works for both and positions both feet correctly with a better carve for both.

 

Once the feel is there, the other stuff actually makes more sense (without standing up) with even better body positioning.

post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post

You have to remember that was when the boots were soft and the ankles actual could bend easily smile.gif. Most skiers when you say bend the ankles can't enough, so you say get forward and they bend at the waist at the same time bending the knees net effect zero at best. When I want my kids to get forward I say stand up and lean forward, while not the ideal position, it does teach the forward feel after which stance can be corrected as needed.

For me skiing is about feel, you understand that evrything else with the occasional guidance falls into place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post


You could also teach them to how to strongly do the foot pull back move which produces strong ankle dorsi flexion, moves the feet hips ahead of the feet with out the risk of bending at the waist and moving the bum back as you stated.  YM
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post


Yes, but that only works for one foot the and usually causes and inside foot smear, stand up and lean works for both and positions both feet correctly with a better carve for both.

Once the feel is there, the other stuff actually makes more sense (without standing up) with even better body positioning.

These are all true and valid, I think. You do need a long leg to really have the hips forward. You start teaching it by popping up straight? Probably valid to acquire the feeling... Guilty as. I just had to do that today with some that I was too successful in getting them in a very flexed, compact stance - they tended to loose some of their "long legs" and now I need to teach that back, so they can get more forward and have the feet further out, so.... I do not usually teach the "wrong" movement, but I was out of ideas.... besides, that how you pump the flats anyways, so there.

This is the right way though - I just don't get tired of posting this:



What I see there is strong pulling back in frame 4, where the debate is, but that I don't think will ever give one sufficient forward for later, just enough to keep the tips engaged - then watch that leg get long allowing the hips to really drive forward followed by the bending of the snot out of the tips...

You need to own all these movements and options - they will all come in handy eventually. The question would be then "what's your default or home base?" I'm working through these in my own skiing, trying to make up my mind. Pulling back the inside ski, while related, is not the same thing. Pulling the outside back while light is what makes sense to me - sometimes it's so much that it feels more like placing it behind the hips...
post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
....


What I see there is strong pulling back in frame 4, where the debate is, but that I don't think will ever give one sufficient forward for later, just enough to keep the tips engaged - then watch that leg get long allowing the hips to really drive forward followed by the bending of the snot out of the tips...

You need to own all these movements and options - they will all come in handy eventually. The question would be then "what's your default or home base?" I'm working through these in my own skiing, trying to make up my mind. Pulling back the inside ski, while related, is not the same thing. Pulling the outside back while light is what makes sense to me - sometimes it's so much that it feels more like placing it behind the hips...

 

Razie, I've been messing with these foot pull-back movements too.  They come from different spots up in the leg.  Pulling the new inside back at initiation starts with an extended leg since the new inside is presently the old outside.  Pulling the new outside back at initiation (when its light) starts with a flexed leg since it was the old inside leg.  

 

I've worked with doing one, then the other, then messed with doing both together.  Pulling the new outside back certainly works very effectively for getting that ski's shovel engaged early (BTE), and for making sure that foot is back where it's supposed to be.  Pulling the new inside back helps engage its shovel (LTE) to sharpen the turn and keep that ski from blocking the whole initiation.

 

But sometimes I don't pull anything back and the turns are great.  Go figure.  Gates would probably separate those differences out for me, but I'm not ever in gates any more.  Report back what you find. 

post #67 of 74

That entire sequence is the goal.  I think the question becomes when you teach certain things for each student.  Some need the more upright approach to get he feel and understanding, others progress straight into the pulling the legs back.  What it comes down to is getting the COM forward over the skis. 

 

BTW for me 4 is still catch up reload phase, 5 is the upright forward and 6 starts the compressed forward (legs pull back).  Look at the down hill knee angle (new inside ski) 4,5,6, 7 it opens and closes through those frames.

post #68 of 74

@ whomever want's to field this one...  Since you guys are talking about retraction, it leaves me with a question.  Lately, I've been focusing on creating counter with my hips in order to open them up to the fall line.  I haven't been thinking about whether or not I'm actively retracting one foot or the other, but as stated, simply by opening my hips to the fall line, I've noticed I become unblocked allowing me to create better balance through being angulated over my outside ski, and the result has been slicing along my edges instead of introducing some type of braking movement or skidded turn by over pressuring the front of my boot.  Since I'm thinking about my hip creating the movement, could I be creating retraction without being cognizant of it, or is the retraction a separate movement in the control phase of the turn leading into the transition?  Thanks!!! 

post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Razie, I've been messing with these foot pull-back movements too.  They come from different spots up in the leg.  Pulling the new inside back at initiation starts with an extended leg since the new inside is presently the old outside.  Pulling the new outside back at initiation (when its light) starts with a flexed leg since it was the old inside leg.  

 

I've worked with doing one, then the other, then messed with doing both together.  Pulling the new outside back certainly works very effectively for getting that ski's shovel engaged early (BTE), and for making sure that foot is back where it's supposed to be.  Pulling the new inside back helps engage its shovel (LTE) to sharpen the turn and keep that ski from blocking the whole initiation.

 

But sometimes I don't pull anything back and the turns are great.  Go figure.  Gates would probably separate those differences out for me, but I'm not ever in gates any more.  Report back what you find. 


pulling the inside and tipping it is what i do in every turn - that is a must, you have it right: it frees up the initiation, the knee, the ankle eversion etc... do i tip just that one or both a little? mostly that one I would guess, but it is more of a guess. I do pay very much attention to the pinkie of that foot and always try to hinge it on the snow - that is the one thing that I do indeed focus on: the ankle inside the boot and where the pinkie is, pretty much every turn. I like my pinkie and how it feels tells me right there if it's a good turn or a so and so turn, before the turn is even starts in earnest..

 

is it a pullback or just a focus on flexing the knee and placing the ankle - can't explain and it does vary from turn to turn - but it is something we all do to some extent when the shins are parallel.

 

pulling them both back, to some extent, we all do I guess whenever they don't shoot out in front in frame 4... the question is how aware and focused we are and how strong we do it...

 

pulling the outside ski back - I don't always focus on that, much like you say. In gates it is different: you NEED to turn a LOT and NOW and that is a VERY STRONG pullback of BOTH feet to get forward and a very conscious killing of the tip of the outside ski. but in free ski, I rarely do that, maybe just for fun or practice or video... and yea, skiing is not bad :)

 

making the outside leg long with pressure on the tips though it is something I do in most every turn. not sure if that falls in the pullback category, but the aim in every turn has a clear period of that, so I am always looking for that - do I always move the hips in front, move the thing back or whatever - not consciously doing any or all of those. Do I sometimes brace against that strong leg and push it forward around the turn? yeah, sure.

 

so, my only real conscious / focus / thought / goal in most turns is to hinge the pinkie of the inside foot and look for an outside leg long with pressure on the tips at the right time- everything else I maybe do or not... I am not the most disciplined person and generally just get carried away with skiing and having fun !!!!

 

:beercheer: 

p.s. at my last SL training, I was explaining how I get back forward re-centering with a strong pullback of both feet like frame 4 and I got a very interesting question from the guy, one of the best I have ever trained with: why do I have a need to strongly re-center in the first place? still chewing through that one... may in fact get some video soon from there... it is sucky as I was fighting the boots and a stiff ski all day, but maybe you give me some ideas.


Edited by razie - 2/16/15 at 6:54am
post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 foot pull-back movements too.  They come from different spots up in the leg. .  

 

that is critical. I spent one full season 2-3 years ago, pulling my inside ski from the hip and it was a very miserable season without any improvement, until a guy too mercy on me and explained how bug of an imbecile I was, at the end of the season. that one day was a huge breaking point in my development. that was HOW to pull it.

 

the other was at the beginning of last season, with that photo montage you made and a guy trying to explain to me at the same time about WHEN and how much to pull it.

 

I still owe you for that

 :beercheer:

 

cheers

 

the outside leg on the other hand is probably the opposite: not from the knee/hamstrings but the hip... at which point are you pushing the hips forward or puling the thing back ??? don't know.


Edited by razie - 2/16/15 at 6:46am
post #71 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

that is critical. I spent one full season 2-3 years ago, pulling my inside ski from the hip and it was a very miserable season without any improvement, until a guy too mercy on me and explained how bug of an imbecile I was....

See? We weren't all nuts. smile.gif
post #72 of 74

Nice community here.

post #73 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldschoolskier View Post
 


Yes, but that only works for one foot the and usually causes and inside foot smear, stand up and lean works for both and positions both feet correctly with a better carve for both.

 

Once the feel is there, the other stuff actually makes more sense (without standing up) with even better body positioning.

who says that only works for one foot.  You can pull both feet back any time you want to pressure both ski tips.  I actually wrote an article about pulling the feet  25 years ago and published in the PSIA-E regional newsletter.  It was called "Move Your Feet".  Wish I still had a copy of that article.   YM 

post #74 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by yogaman View Post

who says that only works for one foot.  You can pull both feet back any time you want to pressure both ski tips.  I actually wrote an article about pulling the feet  25 years ago and published in the PSIA-E regional newsletter.  It was called "Move Your Feet".  Wish I still had a copy of that article.   YM 

Novel concept, many years ago to get pressure on the tips it was called leaning forward. Oh I get it...some say to-may-to and some say to-mah-to type of thing. wink.gif


Serious though saying something like this does have it's purpose especially when combined with other actions. During the mid 80's this concept was already published as to how Tomba skis (about 30+ years ago) and accelerates in turns.

BTW look at post 67 I used legs pull back smile.gif
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