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Dimples under binding rails - new Fischer kids skis

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

I am looking for opinion about what to do with this problem - I bought my 9 y.o. a pair of Fischer Watea JR's with the rail binding that use a cam-type track to mount the binding to the rail. The rails are screwed to the boards with eight screws. 

 

I gave them a quick wax and after the last pass with the scraper, there were four distinctly symetrical dull spots under each of the front and back bindings... and, what a surprise, they match up with the binding rail screws.  My diagnosis is mild case of over-torquing of the screws, probably with an impact driver, by the shop, that is deforming the bases.  Not enough to see when they arrived, but just enough that there is a couple micron film of wax missed by the scraper at those points.  When I hit it with the nylon brush, the wax is gone and you cant see the imperfections any more.  I can't find my true bar to tell how badly the bases are dimpled, but it's not so bad that I can feel.

 

Backing out the screw a little would probably remove the dimples, if you can even call them that.  But does that risk causing other damage so that I should just leave it alone... after all, it's a purely a recreational ski for a conservative, beginner-intermediate skier....

 

And, of course, if backing out the screw is not how you'd fix it, how would you fix it?

 

Here are the some pic's of what it looks like:

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks in advance!


Edited by gdeangel - 2/28/14 at 8:15pm
post #2 of 16

I would not worry about it too much.  This is common to see.  I believe the holes drilled were not filled by the screws.  This leaves a void inside.  Then the base plastic goes into the void.  The holes were drilled completely through the core all the way to the base plastic.  I would not try to fix it. 

post #3 of 16

Ha!  I'll bet someone put in screws that were too long that put pressure on the base (and then changed it) or screwed in the binding without a plate first by accident (making the screws go in too far).  The good news is that the screws didn't go all the way through the bottom and there should be no negative effect on how the ski performs. How do you fix it?  You can't do too much IMHO.  You can scrape the bottom flush, but then you may see a hole that will have to be filled in with P-Tex.  Unless the dimples are really sticking out (or sucked inwards), I'd leave it alone and then go back to the shop, tell them they did a crappy job, and ask for a discount. 

 

How do I know about this type of mistake?  I did it to my own skis decades ago.

 

BTW, if you need to put in shorter screws, use some sort of glue or epoxy.  If the holes are stripped or if the new screw just turns and turns without tightening, putting a little steel wool into the hole first usually does the trick.  Gorilla glue is good stuff, as is standard 2-part epoxy.

post #4 of 16

1. don't worry about it. He is 9 and will be off the skis next season. 

 

2. Worry about it, take the scows out, file them down and reinstall them carefully with new glue. 

 

3. Pour yourself a nice big (insert drink of choice HERE) and see #1. 

post #5 of 16

^^ You guys seem to have missed it.  The bases are concave.  He said dimpled.  The base goes inward not outward.  Shorter screws are not going to help.

post #6 of 16
Rail mounts are almost always factory installed. I wouldn't blame the shop without knowing who mounted the rail. Skis are fine, I wouldn't worry about it.
post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

^^ You guys seem to have missed it.  The bases are concave.  He said dimpled.  The base goes inward not outward.  Shorter screws are not going to help.

Where does he say they are concave? 

post #8 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

^^ You guys seem to have missed it.  The bases are concave.  He said dimpled.  The base goes inward not outward.  Shorter screws are not going to help.

Where does he say they are concave? 

He said dimpled.  Plus you can see it.  Ouote: "Backing out the screw a little would probably remove the dimples"   I think even he is confused, but look again at the first photo.  Maybe my eyes are messing with me?   A dimple is concave.  A pimple or nipple is convex or protruding.

post #9 of 16

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnZhe-0fQmWvOLbKbPp02Yqu4m88nGc-q_7XMLM4BURXby5qX14A

 

In golf, a "bramble" is outward and a "dimple" is inward.  Regardless, when a screw is pushed to far into the base something will happen similar to what happened to the OP.

post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by quant2325 View Post
 

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQnZhe-0fQmWvOLbKbPp02Yqu4m88nGc-q_7XMLM4BURXby5qX14A

 

In golf, a "bramble" is outward and a "dimple" is inward.  Regardless, when a screw is pushed to far into the base something will happen similar to what happened to the OP.


Yes, it will cause a "bramble" or protrusion on the base!  We need the thread starter to clarify the deal.  I see concave, but maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me!  I must admit his statement is a bit confusing.

post #11 of 16
Thread Starter 

Hey all - thanks for the input.  I think it's a concavity.... its visible only when the scraper is not picking up all the wax over those spots, i.e., there is a cavity where a dull sheen of wax is left behind.  I've seen this the one off base low spots before, but the pattern was the red flag because they correspond one to one with the rail screws. 

 

If the holes were drilled too deep and there is a void under the bases, that would explain it. 

 

My theory was that this less dense core, they call "air power" core, might pucker up under the ski if the screw is torqued to much ... not enough to cause a spinner, but enough to pull up the base as the core compresses from the screw.  But come to think of it, with this kind of core, it would probably just strip.

 

Anyway, not sure if I should hold it against the shop or Fischer.  I'm gong to contact the shop.  They are the only ones who know who mounted the rails...

 

Also, don't know if it matters w.r.t. how likely this is to be a problem, but they are extruded base material...


Edited by gdeangel - 3/1/14 at 3:13pm
post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdeangel View Post
 

Hey all - thanks for the input.  I think it's a concavity.... its visible only when the scraper is not picking up all the wax over those spots, i.e., there is a cavity where a dull sheen of wax is left behind.  I've seen this the one off base low spots before, but the pattern was the red flag because they correspond one to one with the rail screws. 

 

If the holes were drilled too deep and there is a void under the bases, that would explain it. 

 

My theory was that this less dense core, they call "air power" core, might pucker up under the ski if the screw is torqued to much ... not enough to cause a spinner, but enough to pull up the base as the core compresses from the screw.  But come to think of it, with this kind of core, it would probably just strip.

 

Anyway, not sure if I should hold it against the shop or Fischer.  I'm gong to contact the shop.  They are the only ones who know who mounted the rails...

"If the holes were drilled too deep and there is a void under the bases, that would explain it."   There is your answer.  Also could be a foam core issue, but I have foam core skis without the issue. 

Anyway it is a common thing.  It's not enough to really cause a glide issue on wet snow.  It's not like a big suction cup on them, so use them and don't let it bug you.

You could fill them with a weld, but you will never know the difference anyway. 

It might be possible to put something into the holes and screw them in again, but that might open a new can of worms even worse.   Take care.  Thanks for the clarification as well.

post #13 of 16
Quote:

Originally Posted by gdeangel View Post

 

My theory was that this less dense core, they call "air power" core, might pucker up under the ski if the screw is torqued to much ... not enough to cause a spinner, but enough to pull up the base as the core compresses from the screw. 

I like this theory.

post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by gdeangel View Post

 

My theory was that this less dense core, they call "air power" core, might pucker up under the ski if the screw is torqued to much ... not enough to cause a spinner, but enough to pull up the base as the core compresses from the screw. 

I like this theory.


OK, that kida' past me.  I get it now.  I wonder.  Could the pulling up of the core from the screw cause the well adhered base to be pulled up as well?  Hmmmm.

post #15 of 16
Do you put epoxy or some other adhesive in the screw hole before attaching the binding? If the screw was deep enough to get the epoxy in contact with the base, maybe through breaks in the core, would the (theoretical) bond with the base be strong enough to pull the base up if the screw was taken out and pulled up the material around it?

All speculation. But we like to speculate, don't we?
post #16 of 16
Like I said, 99% of the time these skis have their rail factory mounted. This ski is very thin, like most jr skis. The mounting screws come very close to the base material. When the ski is ironed, the tips of the screws heat up, and cool slower than the rest of the base. This leaves round areas on the ski that are slightly visible before scrape, and more obvious after scraping. Once brushed, these areas are not visible at all. These areas are also not dimpled (convex or concave), and pose no issue to the performance of the ski.

This is a brand new watea 130 I pulled out of stock today to illustrate what the op observed.


After brushing.
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