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Parallel turn out of a traverse discussion - Page 3

post #61 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

TOC - how or in what way do you think an intermediate skiers parallel turn is different from an experts? To me it sounds like you are suggesting that an intermediate skier never gets ahead of the skis. What is getting ahead of the skis? Is that's what its all about? Advanced skiing....

I think you know this so I am not sure why you are asking.

 

One example is a tight SL turn where you need to be quick.

For example, say that at the apex the CoM is inclined quite a lot to the right. Say also that at the end of the previous turn the skis are pointing 90 degrees across the fall line.

 

Now if you are fore at the end of the previous turn we are going from a position where the body is inclined straight up the slope to a position where it is inclined to the right.

So, how do we get quickly to the inclined position at the apex? The answer of course is that we need to start this in the previous turn, i.e. finish aft. 

 

Do you see why an intermediate who follows the "always fore" paradigm will have problems of placing the turn compared to someone who starts to act earlier?

post #62 of 255

Tdk, it's not necessarily all intermediates. But probably all the "terminal" ones.:)

 

People have a fear of going downhill. They develop all sorts of mechanisms to deal with it. In general, they will on the scary pitch let the skis go first, but stay behind - towards the tails, and not go downhill. This leads to some pushing around of the skis, they come out of the turn on the tails, and do just what they feared - accelerate off the tails in an unwanted direction. Well obviously one can't do that all day so it leads to even more defensive behavior. You can squawk all day about tipping or flexing as the solution, but if they don't get themselves committed downhill, it won't work as intended.

 

Here's what happens - on a pitch that's scary to them - they flex the downhill leg. Nothing happens, they turn uphill slightly or traverse to buy time. "Shopping". They try it again, still no turn starts. Running out of room now or desperate to just turn, they stem the uphill ski - push it out, transfer their weight to it and bring it across the hill. Now they've turned. This repeats till they're comfortable.

 

See it in moguls too since they're steep little things with consequences.

 

This exists at all levels. The fear of a beginner is obvious.

Take an "expert" to some pitch, maybe it's 40, 45, or 50 degrees - extremely steep and the fear comes back. Or it's a lesser pitch with consequences such as an exposed cliff or just trees. I find even skiing the flat top of the half pipe- where it falls off to both sides unnerving and have to concentrate on making simple turns down it.

post #63 of 255

Speaking of weird dimensions. Heard a story on this last night.

This physicist, Lene Hau, slowed light down to 38mph, 15mph, 1mph and then even stopped it. "Froze it". What that means I don't know.

 

Heard on radiolab on WNYC:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/267126-master-universe/

 

Short video from Harvard:

http://youtu.be/-8Nj2uTZc10

post #64 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post


the first gate stepping is to gain speed, not because there is lack of speed. Getting back to the original video turns at this speed are possible with out a stem if you are not forward at the transition



they are not. and you should know that.


because the flaws are what is making the idea of a fully matched turn impossible

these turns fall well with in the laws of newtons physics. Their is no 4th dimension when talking about skiing. 

Josh, I'm not going to pick apart every turn of your skiing that you've posted, but let's just say, let those without flaws, cast the first stone. And if skiing has nothing to do with time then I'll quit as clearly the past 40+ years on snow have been a tremendous misunderstanding of everything about the sport. Guess Bob and Jamt better toss the towel your way as well.

Again, it seems we're back into highly didactic arguments by otherwise smart folks confusing a drill designed for aspiring intermediates to learn how to move their mass forward along the ski with final outcomes of highly advanced dynamic skiing, the latter of course is a bit different and more appealing creature.

How about this one:

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c81240m1272824

Can we confuse this one with the outcome and dynamics of the Sochi SL NYTimes time lapse photo sequence, or can we say she's doing a couple of things in the vid that at once manage to be both fundamental to the final outcome of her gold medal and WC globe results, yet different? I think we can.

And now can we acknowledge that skiing at all levels is a confluence of some fundimental ideas about edging, pressure, and rotary that rely on variations of timing, intensity, rate, and duration ? ( TIRD on us and our egos)

I'll bet several of the folks active in this thread could correctly execute the demo in the original post .
Edited by markojp - 2/28/14 at 7:46am
post #65 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I think you know this so I am not sure why you are asking.

 

One example is a tight SL turn where you need to be quick.

For example, say that at the apex the CoM is inclined quite a lot to the right. Say also that at the end of the previous turn the skis are pointing 90 degrees across the fall line.

 

Now if you are fore at the end of the previous turn we are going from a position where the body is inclined straight up the slope to a position where it is inclined to the right.

So, how do we get quickly to the inclined position at the apex? The answer of course is that we need to start this in the previous turn, i.e. finish aft. 

 

Do you see why an intermediate who follows the "always fore" paradigm will have problems of placing the turn compared to someone who starts to act earlier?

 

I see what you mean. So what you are saying is that a terminal intermediate is some one that never learned to make a carved retraction turn but can make perfect parallel turns on a groomer, ski powder and bumps and carve by extending into the transition? There might be a problem with reversing the up and down movement pattern that in worst case is ingrained beyond repair but I think that you set the bar way too high. You can have both, cant you?

post #66 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Speaking of weird dimensions. Heard a story on this last night.

This physicist, Lene Hau, slowed light down to 38mph, 15mph, 1mph and then even stopped it. "Froze it". What that means I don't know.

 

Heard on radiolab on WNYC:

http://www.radiolab.org/story/267126-master-universe/

 

Short video from Harvard:

http://youtu.be/-8Nj2uTZc10

 

Fascinating :rolleyes

post #67 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

I see what you mean. So what you are saying is that a terminal intermediate is some one that never learned to make a carved retraction turn but can make perfect parallel turns on a groomer, ski powder and bumps and carve by extending into the transition?

There might be a problem with reversing the up and down movement pattern that in worst case is ingrained beyond repair but I think that you set the bar way too high. You can have both, cant you?

Jamt can answer but read my post just above the physicist video.

Has nothing to do with retraction. And they don't make perfect turns anywhere. Whatever perfect is, they're not doing  that.

post #68 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Tdk, it's not necessarily all intermediates. But probably all the "terminal" ones.:)

 

People have a fear of going downhill. They develop all sorts of mechanisms to deal with it. In general, they will on the scary pitch let the skis go first, but stay behind - towards the tails, and not go downhill. This leads to some pushing around of the skis, they come out of the turn on the tails, and do just what they feared - accelerate off the tails in an unwanted direction. Well obviously one can't do that all day so it leads to even more defensive behavior. You can squawk all day about tipping or flexing as the solution, but if they don't get themselves committed downhill, it won't work as intended.

 

Here's what happens - on a pitch that's scary to them - they flex the downhill leg. Nothing happens, they turn uphill slightly or traverse to buy time. "Shopping". They try it again, still no turn starts. Running out of room now or desperate to just turn, they stem the uphill ski - push it out, transfer their weight to it and bring it across the hill. Now they've turned. This repeats till they're comfortable.

 

See it in moguls too since they're steep little things with consequences.

 

This exists at all levels. The fear of a beginner is obvious.

Take an "expert" to some pitch, maybe it's 40, 45, or 50 degrees - extremely steep and the fear comes back. Or it's a lesser pitch with consequences such as an exposed cliff or just trees. I find even skiing the flat top of the half pipe- where it falls off to both sides unnerving and have to concentrate on making simple turns down it.

 

Good posting. Yes, I find myself in that fear position once in a while. What do people do that don't know how to stem that uphill ski? Carve Ted Ligerty style?

post #69 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Speaking of weird dimensions. Heard a story on this last night.
This physicist, Lene Hau, slowed light down to 38mph, 15mph, 1mph and then even stopped it. "Froze it". What that means I don't know.

Heard on radiolab on WNYC:
http://www.radiolab.org/story/267126-master-universe/

Short video from Harvard:


http://youtu.be/-8Nj2uTZc10


If we listen to last 20 seconds of her audio, there's a very important lesson for all of us that can easily be applied to skiing. smile.gif Very cool (pardon the pun) ideas in the vid by the way! smile.gif
post #70 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Jamt can answer but read my post just above the physicist video.

Has nothing to do with retraction. And they don't make perfect turns anywhere. Whatever perfect is, they're not doing  that.

 

But that's not an intermediate skier. Just a bad skier. Bad technique can never produce good intermediate skiers.

post #71 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

But that's not an intermediate skier. Just a bad skier. Bad technique can never produce good intermediate skiers.

I'm guessing its a pretty good skier doing a poor demo. But I'm sure that's never happened to anyone posting here... And listen to the last 20 seconds of the science vid... There's a lesson for all of us there.
post #72 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Good posting. Yes, I find myself in that fear position once in a while. What do people do that don't know how to stem that uphill ski? Carve Ted Ligerty style?

Sure, because we all know that Ted is the most fearful man on the GS circuit. smile.gif
post #73 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I see what you mean. So what you are saying is that a terminal intermediate is some one that never learned to make a carved retraction turn but can make perfect parallel turns on a groomer, ski powder and bumps and carve by extending into the transition? There might be a problem with reversing the up and down movement pattern that in worst case is ingrained beyond repair but I think that you set the bar way too high. You can have both, cant you?

I think you're being didactic and rhetorical... A horse has four legs, a tail, and a mane. So does a zebra, therefore, a zebra is a horse. smile.gif
post #74 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I see what you mean. So what you are saying is that a terminal intermediate is some one that never learned to make a carved retraction turn but can make perfect parallel turns on a groomer, ski powder and bumps and carve by extending into the transition? There might be a problem with reversing the up and down movement pattern that in worst case is ingrained beyond repair but I think that you set the bar way too high. You can have both, cant you?

No, carved retraction turns can be  learned in days, sometimes hours. Perfection though, isn't that what keeps us obsessed?

Also you can make carved retraction turn and always be forward, but it will not win you any medals.

post #75 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

 What do people do that don't know how to stem that uphill ski? Carve Ted Ligerty style?

Heh you jest, however there's some truth to it. Eliminate the carving though.

 

They do this picture below to a lesser degree but tips would be up in the air. The still photos might be similar, but Ted is moving the body downhill inside the new turn about to start.

Our terminal skier would not be moving in that direction, they would be staying uphill. They then would have to force the skis around somehow.

 

 

video: http://youtu.be/Mswj24rZcDw (sound is loud)

post #76 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Heh you jest, however there's some truth to it. Eliminate the carving though.

 

They do this picture below to a lesser degree but tips would be up in the air. The still photos might be similar, but Ted is moving the body downhill inside the new turn about to start.

Our terminal skier would not be moving in that direction, they would be staying uphill. They then would have to force the skis around somehow.

 

 

video: http://youtu.be/Mswj24rZcDw (sound is loud)

 

:nono:

post #77 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

No, carved retraction turns can be  learned in days, sometimes hours. Perfection though, isn't that what keeps us obsessed?

Also you can make carved retraction turn and always be forward, but it will not win you any medals.

 

I'm asking for input on how to make a parallel turn out of a travers. Have you even tried to grasp the task?

post #78 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by bud heishman View Post
 

We are discussing basic parallel turn initiations which are a far cry from turns initiated in a race course at 40 mph:rolleyes

I does not matter. In a traverse, stepping onto the uphill ski while still on it's little toe edge while still maintaining some weight and not completely off of the BTE of your downhill ski (outside) and then rolling the uphill (inside ski) to the BTE, while keeping your skis parallel in my mind accomplishes the same thing, except it allows carving into the falline. This also is not a simultaneous edge change. We do this drill at slow speed all the time to practice the skill of carving the top of the turn early. 

 

But as you say it ALSO applies to race speeds. 

 

By the way the video was about flexing your joints and being loose while traversing, it really was not about parallel turns!

post #79 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

I'm asking for input on how to make a parallel turn out of a travers. Have you even tried to grasp the task?
Yes, I said several Days ago that you can just let the tips seek the fall line. Imo that is the most elegant way but off course you can do it in many ways. And by the way, you can do it even with retraction by using preturn.
post #80 of 255

Not much of a contribution to the discussion, but some context to the original video that some of you may find interesting...

 

Warren Jobbitt is the current western course coordinator for the CSIA (so in a sense, the first and last word on who makes Level 4 these days), and was the coach of our last demo team at interski. Judging by the uniform he's wearing, this video looks like it's quite old (5-10 years is my guess), and I'm sure Warren would be first to admit that the demo isn't very good...but you should see him ski in real life!

 

Also, the turn from traverse thing he's demonstrating used to be a required demonstration run on the L4 exam, so that's almost definitely why he made a video of it in the first place. We've since scrapped that one and are doing hockey stops and braquage these days...though I hear snowplow might be making a comeback in the not so distant future...

post #81 of 255

From a traverse to the earliest possible edge and arc into the fall line. So simple I teach it to never ever's.  PSIA level III candidates have more trouble than never ever"s.

 

I teach it from the point of stance and balance. 

 

Keep the pelvis square to the direction the torso is moving always.  Why?  Maximizes range of motion for any of the skills on either leg/foot at any time (balance of the pelvis in the traverse plane).

 

Stay in an athletic stance like you are going to catch a basketball thrown hard at your chest.  That would include a rounded back with elbows out, hands forward.  Why? Two fold:  The rounded back with an angle roughly matching that of the lower leg keeps the lower body trapped behind and under the upper body preventing the lower body from taking off and putting the skier in the back seat.  Two, the athletic stance maximizes range of motion for any of the skills on either leg'/foot at any time (balance of the pelvis in the sagittal plane)

 

Seek a balance in functional tension between the two halves of the body around the core and upper legs by allowing the pelvis to float on top of the femurs and remain level.  Level both by balancing tension and visually to the slope in front of you.  Why?  Passively creates edging/ angulation, pressure control and rotary (balance of the pelvis in the lateral plane)

 

In the traverse to turn downhill exercise the idea is to use momentum and gravity to the maximum and do as little as possible while letting everything happen.  

 

Start in the athletic stance,  traverse across the hill with the pelvis square to the skis (because torso moving with skis).  Use a short leg/long leg and floating pelvis on the femurs to seek equal tension.  Most people in rental equipment will leave two nice arcs behind them. The skier traversing in this manner will have near zero counter but some tip lead due to short leg/long leg. 

 

For explanation, lets say the skier is traversing with the left ski uphill getting ready for a turn to the right.  The skier will feel some cuff to shin pressure right around the 10:00 position.  Look straight forward at the path you are moving along.  Flex both ankles, allow the body mass to move slightly forward and allow the shins to roll through the tongues of the boots. Allow the feet to tip with the roll of the shins.  Why forward and through the tongues of the boots?  Moving straight forward (not lateral first) moves the body mass towards the tips in preparation to engage the ski tips first and allow the design of the ski to pull the skier into the downhill turn.

 

As the shins roll through the tongues of the boots look in the direction of the turn and trace a round line with your eyes into the fall line. The upper body will begin to move in the direction of the turn.  Allow the pelvis to move enough to progressively stay square to the changing of direction the torso is moving.   This is almost automatic and need not be said.  Continue to allow the pelvis to float, seek equal tension and continue to move to stay level with the changing slope.  This is easy with vision and a feeling of equal functional tension in the core and upper legs.  Maintain the athletic stance and allow the entire body to match and stay perpendicular to the slope as its changing (not looking very far ahead gives the visual to remain forward and level.  The motion is similar to tilting forward after getting off the chair lift)

 

The upper body and the lower body are aligned similar to the countered position most people use for a traverse when the skis go flat.  There is some tip lead on the soon to be new outside ski and a slight bit of counter into the new turn.  The act of seeking level and balanced tension prevents unnecessary movements of the upper body  into the new turn. Continue to tip the feet and seek a balanced functional tension.  At this point the feet tip onto the new edges with very little movement of the upper body into the turn. Allow the short leg/long leg and the pelvis floating on the femurs to do all the edging.  Allow the skis shape to guide the skis into the fall line. 

 

If done this way, the skier will default a simultaneous edge change with equal edge angles and no side slipping. A near perfect two edges to four edges to two edges through edge change in one fluid movement.

 

I have put the word allow in bold to emphasis that making things happen is not the way to perform this exercise.  Many good skiers and ski instructors have a hard time not doing much and allowing things to happen.  Making things happen introduces unnecessary upper body or weight transfer movements that upset balance and usually lead to a side slipping of the skis downhill when the skis go flat for edge change. You have to let the garbage drop out of your skiing  and leave your pre conceived baggage of ideas at the starting point for this to work.  .

post #82 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

I does not matter. In a traverse, stepping onto the uphill ski while still on it's little toe edge while still maintaining some weight and not completely off of the BTE of your downhill ski (outside) and then rolling the uphill (inside ski) to the BTE, while keeping your skis parallel in my mind accomplishes the same thing, except it allows carving into the falline. This also is not a simultaneous edge change. We do this drill at slow speed all the time to practice the skill of carving the top of the turn early. 

 

But as you say it ALSO applies to race speeds. 

 

By the way the video was about flexing your joints and being loose while traversing, it really was not about parallel turns!

OK, I'll play!  I would like to see this carved turn initiation you speak of at slow speeds?  In fact why don't you show us how you can do it from a stand still???  What ever you are doing at slow speeds is not a carved turn.  You may call it a "scarve" which is BS for steering but hey whatever you wanna call it it's not carving sorry to burst your racing bubble.

 

Oh and by the way, read the OP's post #77 just prior to yours.

OP said:

"I'm asking for input on how to make a parallel turn out of a travers. Have you even tried to grasp the task?"

 
 

Edited by bud heishman - 2/28/14 at 9:05pm
post #83 of 255
"trace a round line with your eyes into the fall line."  :confused

 

"Allow the pelvis to move enough to progressively stay square to the changing of direction the torso is moving.   This is almost automatic and need not be said. "   But….. you just said it?  Then you said this:  "The upper body and the lower body are aligned similar to the countered position most people use for a traverse when the skis go flat.  There is some tip lead on the soon to be new outside ski and a slight bit of counter into the new turn." 

 

Level both by balancing tension and visually to the slope in front of you.  Why?  Passively creates edging/ angulation, pressure control and rotary (balance of the pelvis in the lateral plane)  WTF?

 

OMG:eek   I really hope you don't teach like this :rolleyes 

post #84 of 255
Speaking theoretically, not in terms of what to teach never evers, Bud why don't you think it's possible to engage the downhill edges from a traverse? All you have to do is counterbalance your upper body up the hill enough to not fall over and you can stand there statically on the downhill edges. Easy it is not. But possible yes. If you can stand there on the downhill edges then why not be able to start inching forward on a traverse that is a frowny face path , instead of the normal smiley face?

Add a little more momentum and the allowance for some smearing, but still a focus on finding balance on the downhill edges, and you can definitely tip and engage your downhill edges from a traverse, just like any other direction. It's merely a matter of using your upper body to counter balance just the right amount which is a bit more difficult or subtle then when you are exiting an old turn with some turn forces. From a traverse there are no turn forces so you have to physically move yourself into the turn somehow in order to tip the skis.

The problem is that also, this subtle move has to be done in such a way you don't tumble down the hill. If you push with extension over onto those downhill edges you will not be able to simultaneously counter balance with your upper body, you will tend to push yourself out of balance. If you use aggressive downhill foot tipping, without an extension push, then you can simultaneously counter rotate and counterbalance the upper body up the hill and maintain balance during those first critical moments until turn forces can be created to balance against.

From a standstill is way more difficult the from a traverse but still possible. Its hard because it takes longer to create turn forces to balance against. You just have to start gliding forward on the skis for the tipping to create turning. If from a standstill you begin with a strong flattening of the skis and let the tips drift down the hill that is ok but until the skis are gliding forward even a little the downhill edges won't make you turn. However consider that from a standstill you can allow yourself to glide forward momentarily on the uphill edges and then begin flattening and tipping on over to the downhill edges and the forward glide will create turning on the downhill edges. Yes this is very hard at slow speeds but very good training. It requires patience and balance awareness.
post #85 of 255

I could ride a bicycle backwards too but why would I want to do it other than proving a cute little trick?  Trying to mimic carving without the momentum and turning forces seems kinda silly to me.  Good luck teaching beginners this method and please make sure you have a very wide, uncrowded slope to introduce this method!  Sure I understand it can be done, but come on….really?  I want to make skiing as easy as possible for beginners.

 

I think you will find in practice, your last paragraph description that the skis when flattened will cause the tips to slip substantially before you can possible engage the downhill edges, at which time you are precariously balanced in a very contorted position.  WHY would anyone want to do this?  It's ugly, uncomfortable, dangerous on the joints.

 

Why not introduce carving on a beginner run with railroad tracks close to the fall line using the same mechanism you discuss above?  It makes much more sense when done closer to the pull of gravity/fall line.  Carving requires forward momentum.  At slower speeds we can balance on edges and yes, even need to counter balance to achieve this because the turning forces are not sufficient enough to move very far inside the turn.  Once there is a bit more momentum and turning forces the skis will begin to bend and we are off to the races.  Trying to make this happen at slow speeds from across the fall line shows a lack of understanding of psychics and forces.

post #86 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post


Yes, I said several Days ago that you can just let the tips seek the fall line. Imo that is the most elegant way but off course you can do it in many ways. And by the way, you can do it even with retraction by using preturn.

 

Great! Do you have any video of those turns. Post them here.

post #87 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Great! Do you have any video of those turns. Post them here.

Too bad you got banned from the the other site, they love the "got video?" mentality over there.

post #88 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

From a traverse there are no turn forces so you have to physically move yourself into the turn somehow in order to tip the skis.
 

 

There are a lot of things I don't understand. This is one of them. Why would you need turn forces in order to tip your skis on edge? Basic tipping movements can be done at a standstill. Just point your knees or angulate at the hip.

post #89 of 255

TDK6--May I suggest that this "argument" is probably not a dispute over the facts, but it merely reflects the difference between being technically accurate on one hand, and giving simple, practical direction and coaching to make the right thing happen on the other.

 

You are right, of course, that you can tip or flatten your skis by just using angulation movements--feet/ankles, knees, hips, spine, etc. But the critical issue here is not just tipping and releasing the edges. It is the movement of the body (center of mass) downhill, into the turn (in other words, inclination). If you release your edges without moving your CM down the hill, of course, your skis will just slip out from underneath you. So you must move downhill before, or as, you release your edges. And if the CM is not already moving downhill on a path that crosses the path of the skis, as it would be (or at least, as it should be) when turns are linked, then we must recruit some external force to push or pull it down the hill. That's simple physics.

 

In a traverse then, or just a standstill, we must do something to get that CM moving down the hill. It can be so subtle that we might not even notice it, but that something would generally be some sort of a lateral weight transfer--momentarily and microscopically extending the uphill leg or retracting the downhill leg--or it could even involve a push with the uphill pole, although that would be less likely. Simply angulating with the ankles, knees, or hips involves only internal muscular forces that move one thing one way and something else the other way, keeping the CM laterally undisturbed.

 

These things are absolutely necessary, required by the laws of physics (Newton's First Law--a body at rest will remain at rest until an external force acts on it...), and not debatable. But from a practical point of view, they may well be unnecessary to consider--as you suggest. Our bodies know very well how to do these things, without our conscious awareness, understanding, or direction. You don't have to remember, or even to know how you do it, to get your body moving forward from a standstill before you take a step forward with your feet. So your point that it's easy--just tip your feet, knees, or hips and release your edges--will work for the majority of students, because their bodies already know how to keep their balance. A little practice and coaching with sideslips--making sure that the shoulders don't tip up the hill as the edges release, for example--is all it takes for most people. Tip the feet to release and slip, tip them again to set the edges, repeat, repeat, repeat, and most will figure it out without needing to understand the underlying physics, and without necessarily needing to be reminded to move downhill as they release their edges.

 

Effective teaching does not always need to be 100% technically accurate in every detail. And 100% technically accurate, fully detailed explanation is not always (or almost ever) good, effective teaching. As Horst Abraham once asked, "does a butterfly flap its wings up and down, or does a butterfly just fly?"

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

post #90 of 255
Bud,

To answer your question,I don't teach that from a standstill pretty much ever, certainly not to beginners. I thought we were talking about starting from a traverse, which is way easier.

Secondly, your description of this as a stupid bicycle trick is really unfortunate for you. I would like to encourage you to spend more time playing around with it.
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