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Parallel turn out of a traverse discussion - Page 9

post #241 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

If you are initiating from a standstill you don't need early edge engagement. I thought what Bud and BTS were discussing was from a traverse. Even when Bud starts from a standstill I think he traverses a bit first.

 

Its hard to see from the traverse segment but from a stand still the edges are not released completely before the fall line. You can clearly see that they are slipping sideways and pushing snow from under the bases. This kind of demo should be done over a newly groomed track so that we could have a reference point of the fall line. In the realms of performing a functional brushed turn the demo in the traverse segment doesn't look that appealing to me. I need for my skis to maintain a solid forward motion and let the friction of the new engaged edges pull me into the turn. Not gravity. If I have speed I can make a proper brushed turn uphill if I wanted. And correct me if I'm wrong but that is not Bud in the video here on page 8.

post #242 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

 

  In which direction?

 

  zenny

 

Tangent?

post #243 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

No, tipping is a vital part of brushing.

I'm looking forward to your analysis of Bob's video.

 

Edit: Brushing and carving can be the exact same movements with different DIRT.

 

I didn't say tipping was not part of brushing. Just that tipping alone does not produce a brushed edge. To you, what is the difference between edging and tipping?

post #244 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Its hard to see from the traverse segment but from a stand still the edges are not released completely before the fall line. You can clearly see that they are slipping sideways and pushing snow from under the bases. This kind of demo should be done over a newly groomed track so that we could have a reference point of the fall line. In the realms of performing a functional brushed turn the demo in the traverse segment doesn't look that appealing to me. I need for my skis to maintain a solid forward motion and let the friction of the new engaged edges pull me into the turn. Not gravity. If I have speed I can make a proper brushed turn uphill if I wanted. And correct me if I'm wrong but that is not Bud in the video here on page 8.

Sorry, I meant BTS.

What do you mean with "pull me into the turn"? Before the fall line gravity and edge engagement work together turn wise and in opposite direction balance wise.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I didn't say tipping was not part of brushing. Just that tipping alone does not produce a brushed edge. To you, what is the difference between edging and tipping?

This is what you used as a definition:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

 Brushing is a combination of pivot and steering. Carving is a combination of tipping and steering.

 

post #245 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

I didn't say tipping was not part of brushing. Just that tipping alone does not produce a brushed edge. To you, what is the difference between edging and tipping?

 

Tipping alone can definitely produce a brushed edge, but you can also contribute some rotary if you like, however rotary is not absolutely necessary to get a steered, brushed edge.  Try to do any wedge cristie demo and you can see what it means to tip the outside ski and embrace the pressure and have it steer itself quite readily.  In our division its considered taboo to stem the uphill ski up in order to start the wedge cristie turn, you have to release the downhill ski while the skis are parallel and steer the outside ski into a wedge on its inside edge, with brushing.

 

Wedge cristies are a great way to experience this since you can kind of use the downhill ski as a balance crutch and find out what happens when you merely tip the uphill ski and give the shovel pressure.  A nice brushed turn will emerge on that ski.  Don't argue until you try this TDK.  A ski can easily and readily enter a brushed/steered turn without any pivot entry.  

 

The only difference between a wedge cristie and basic parallel is that with the parallel entry you don't have the downhill ski crutch and you have to achieve balance on the uphill ski, which is possible with just a little bit of motion to provide centripetal forces and a small amount of counterbalancing to help balance the equation JAMT was talking about. 

post #246 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

Sorry, I meant BTS.

What do you mean with "pull me into the turn"? Before the fall line gravity and edge engagement work together turn wise and in opposite direction balance wise.

 

 

BTS? I thought they were random ski instructors that made the demo for Bob. As far as I know BTS doesn't post any videos of himself at this forum.

 

Its the friction of your edges that cause you to turn when you brush. Off course you need tipping also when you brush a steered turn. Sorry that I left it out. It was just that I wanted to strip it down to bare essentials. But yes, you need to tip the skis after the pivot to engage the edges to cause friction. Usually tipping angles are very moderate compared to carved turns.

post #247 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

BTS? I thought they were random ski instructors that made the demo for Bob. As far as I know BTS doesn't post any videos of himself at this forum.

 

Its the friction of your edges that cause you to turn when you brush. Off course you need tipping also when you brush a steered turn. Sorry that I left it out. It was just that I wanted to strip it down to bare essentials. But yes, you need to tip the skis after the pivot to engage the edges to cause friction. Usually tipping angles are very moderate compared to carved turns.

I meant the picture of ski tracks.

 

Still not sure what you mean with "friction of the new engaged edges pull me into the turn".

The friction makes you turn it does not "pull you into the turn"

post #248 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Tipping alone can definitely produce a brushed edge, but you can also contribute some rotary if you like, however rotary is not absolutely necessary to get a steered, brushed edge.  Try to do any wedge cristie demo and you can see what it means to tip the outside ski and embrace the pressure and have it steer itself quite readily.  In our division its considered taboo to stem the uphill ski up in order to start the wedge cristie turn, you have to release the downhill ski while the skis are parallel and steer the outside ski into a wedge on its inside edge, with brushing.

 

Wedge cristies are a great way to experience this since you can kind of use the downhill ski as a balance crutch and find out what happens when you merely tip the uphill ski and give the shovel pressure.  A nice brushed turn will emerge on that ski.  Don't argue until you try this TDK.  A ski can easily and readily enter a brushed/steered turn without any pivot entry.  

 

The only difference between a wedge cristie and basic parallel is that with the parallel entry you don't have the downhill ski crutch and you have to achieve balance on the uphill ski, which is possible with just a little bit of motion to provide centripetal forces and a small amount of counterbalancing to help balance the equation JAMT was talking about. 

 

Lots of interesting information here. I'm completely aware with how the ski behaves when brushing over the snow in a wedge or a wedge- or a stem Christie. I have my day off today but I will try your divisions take on the wedge Christie tomorrow if I remember. However, still a bit confused. To me it sounds like a regular wedge Christie. You are pivoting your new outside ski as its tipped from its uphill LTE to its downhill BTE. You are using the word "steering". That's usually being used for direction of change. Not how, as in pivot&tip=brush or tip=carve. Anyway, without a pivot of the new outside ski at edge change I cannot understand how you get your skis into a wedge. 

 

A little bit of motion...... what exactly is this in your opinion? Since the argument has been whether a little bit of motion is needed or not in addition to just tipping I find it surprising that you all of a sudden list it as a necessity.

 

Isn't shifting the weight out over the uphill ski, active weight transfer, a negative movement that should be avoided?

post #249 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

I meant the picture of ski tracks.

 

Still not sure what you mean with "friction of the new engaged edges pull me into the turn".

The friction makes you turn it does not "pull you into the turn"

 

Yes, sorry if I used the wrong word. You probably understand what I'm saying anyway. Its the friction of the edges that make you change direction. Not gravity. If that was not the case you could never turn past the fall line.

post #250 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Yes, sorry if I used the wrong word. You probably understand what I'm saying anyway. Its the friction of the edges that make you change direction. Not gravity. If that was not the case you could never turn past the fall line.

But it is not friction alone. Before the fall line gravity helps the turn, after the fall line it opposes the turn.

post #251 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

But it is not friction alone. Before the fall line gravity helps the turn, after the fall line it opposes the turn.

 

So? What if the slope is very flat and we can discard gravity?

post #252 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

So? What if the slope is very flat and we can discard gravity?

If you can discard gravity you are most likely on cross country skis :D

 

If you have some speed out on a flat part you turn only with friction and pressure obviously.

post #253 of 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Lots of interesting information here. I'm completely aware with how the ski behaves when brushing over the snow in a wedge or a wedge- or a stem Christie. I have my day off today but I will try your divisions take on the wedge Christie tomorrow if I remember. However, still a bit confused. To me it sounds like a regular wedge Christie. You are pivoting your new outside ski as its tipped from its uphill LTE to its downhill BTE. You are using the word "steering". That's usually being used for direction of change. Not how, as in pivot&tip=brush or tip=carve. Anyway, without a pivot of the new outside ski at edge change I cannot understand how you get your skis into a wedge. 

A little bit of motion...... what exactly is this in your opinion? Since the argument has been whether a little bit of motion is needed or not in addition to just tipping I find it surprising that you all of a sudden list it as a necessity.

Isn't shifting the weight out over the uphill ski, active weight transfer, a negative movement that should be avoided?

The word steering is used loosely to mean different things by different people, including within most divisions. My distinction between the word pivot and the word steer is that I see pivoting as being on a disengaged ski, most likely flat. Steering is when the ski is engaged and is actually shaping a turn on the edge which is different then the boring park and ride arc. So in my universe there is no steering until the edges are engaged, only optional pivoting.

Little bit of motion means gliding somewhat forward along the length of the ski. Does not have to be edge locked, a forward side slip could qualify.

Wen you release the downhill ski, your weight is shifted to the uphill ski. No that is not a no no. Balance is crucial and counter balance is how you maintain balance while releasing and moving into the turn with your lower body. What is your concern there TDK?
post #254 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


The word steering is used loosely to mean different things by different people, including within most divisions. My distinction between the word pivot and the word steer is that I see pivoting as being on a disengaged ski, most likely flat. Steering is when the ski is engaged and is actually shaping a turn on the edge which is different then the boring park and ride arc. So in my universe there is no steering until the edges are engaged, only optional pivoting.

Little bit of motion means gliding somewhat forward along the length of the ski. Does not have to be edge locked, a forward side slip could qualify.

Wen you release the downhill ski, your weight is shifted to the uphill ski. No that is not a no no. Balance is crucial and counter balance is how you maintain balance while releasing and moving into the turn with your lower body. What is your concern there TDK?

 

I agree that the word steering is somewhat unspecified and can mean a lot of different things to different people. For me steering means turning. We can for instance steer our skis down the mountain. It doesn't explain how, if its brushed or carved. Or both. If we are talking about one turn then its usually either or. The pivot is simply pivoting the ski to point in another direction it is heading.

 

If you are gliding forward in a traverse and release your downhill ski your uphill ski will tip over to its BTE and start running along its edge. This is why the PM was invented. Check it out if you are not familiar or forgot how it works. Without other movements and actions the ski will not start brushing and turn in and out of the fall line.

 

No concern. Its exactly what we do also to initiate a wedge turn. Pressure transfer. Over here at epic its often referred to an active weight transfer which is considered a bad thing over here. Should be passive. But yes, in a normal parallel turn initiated by up-unweighting the pivot is followed by counterbalance serving for early outside ski pressure and high C turn shaping.

post #255 of 255
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

If you can discard gravity you are most likely on cross country skis :D

 

If you have some speed out on a flat part you turn only with friction and pressure obviously.

 

Snaking up the T-bar :rolleyes

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