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EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › OK wax hounds...I have a couple of questions.
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OK wax hounds...I have a couple of questions.

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

#1.  Why not always hot scrape?

 

I have been using hard wax this winter a lot and Swix says to hot scrape the 4 series waxes.

Why not always hot scrape.

You can easily generate several thousand psi under the edge of a scraper, why not use this to force hot wax into the open porosity.

I hot scrape most of the wax off like I was cleaning the base and rescrape after cooling...this is fast and easy and I can't think of any reasons not to do it.

Why not?

 

#2.  Where is the magic?

 

I bought a pair of racing skis from a USST member and they were really, really fast when I first got them.

All I did was scrape them and ski and they would walk away from the others.

Later in the season I could never duplicate that glide even though I put the Swix tech manual under my pillow and slathered them with  double and triple high fluoro overlays.

I would like to think it was structure but they didn't look like they changed much in the 50 or so runs I am talking about.

My skis usually run faster than most but after I tasted that USST Cool-Aid, I want more.

What's the deal?

post #2 of 25

The answer to #2 is your not using the same high-flo wax they use. I use Dominator Hyper-zoom a low-flo wax, my skis glide great.

 

 

I only use a little blue wax mixed in with the hyper-zoom for the colder day's.

 

Change to Dominator hyper-zoom and other of there wax's and see if you like them better. You could get by with there blue wax and hyper-zoom and may some yellow for spring time.

post #3 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

#1.  Why not always hot scrape?

 

I have been using hard wax this winter a lot and Swix says to hot scrape the 4 series waxes.

Why not always hot scrape.

You can easily generate several thousand psi under the edge of a scraper, why not use this to force hot wax into the open porosity.

I hot scrape most of the wax off like I was cleaning the base and rescrape after cooling...this is fast and easy and I can't think of any reasons not to do it.

Why not?

 

#2.  Where is the magic?

 

I bought a pair of racing skis from a USST member and they were really, really fast when I first got them.

All I did was scrape them and ski and they would walk away from the others.

Later in the season I could never duplicate that glide even though I put the Swix tech manual under my pillow and slathered them with  double and triple high fluoro overlays.

I would like to think it was structure but they didn't look like they changed much in the 50 or so runs I am talking about.

My skis usually run faster than most but after I tasted that USST Cool-Aid, I want more.

What's the deal?


Always hot scraping with soft wax will yield a softer wax as all waxes become a conglomeration.  Instead of a hot scrape, try some Swix Glide Wax Cleaner.  This way if you are working a red or blue wax you won't loose the hardness.  If you have gone overboard with high fluoros you will be better served to use the Glide Wax Cleaner.   Fancy overlays will clog the ski too.  Only put those on for racing, and always over the top of a well waxed ski.  If you use those overlays on a unwaxed ski, you will clog the base for sure. Plus they won't work well that way anyway.

 

Too much fluoro will slow a ski in dryer snows.  Don't over do it.  Hyper Zoom is low fluoro.  Only time I use a high is when it is slush, and even then only a small amount mixed with the other wax of choice.

post #4 of 25
Thread Starter 

Snow that contains free water is the only place I have found hi fluoros to work well.

Then they can work very well for about a run.

If it was 15 last night and will be 40 and sunny today...I'm not quite sure what is best.

If you go the Swix route and wax with HF 8BW, then put an overlay of FC10 powder on that and dope up with FC8 Rocket between runs...things work pretty well.

But that doesn't seem to match the USSA wax job I experienced in these conditions.

Maybe Swix's consumer waxes aren't what high level techs use?

 

I see your point about hot scraping soft wax and mixing it with the wax already on the skis.

post #5 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

Snow that contains free water is the only place I have found hi fluoros to work well.

Then they can work very well for about a run.

If it was 15 last night and will be 40 and sunny today...I'm not quite sure what is best.

If you go the Swix route and wax with HF 8BW, then put an overlay of FC10 powder on that and dope up with FC8 Rocket between runs...things work pretty well.

But that doesn't seem to match the USSA wax job I experienced in these conditions.

Maybe Swix's consumer waxes aren't what high level techs use?

 

I see your point about hot scraping soft wax and mixing it with the wax already on the skis.I

IMHO the USSA wax job is from many many wax cycles, including hot scrapes and the use of a base conditioner like Dominator Base Renew Graphite if the bases are black as a base layer.  In other words from being waxed numerous times without a stone grind. 

 

We had a pair if US Ski Team member's Atomic 210cm Downhills that had been waxed so much the tips had turned red.

 

Extremely fast skis. They had been waxed and waxed and waxed and waxed and waxed. 

post #6 of 25
Thread Starter 

I think the many, many cycles thing is correct.

That's one good reason not to use base cleaner.

Some say to never use it unless you spill paint on your skis.

post #7 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

I think the many, many cycles thing is correct.

That's one good reason not to use base cleaner.

Some say to never use it unless you spill paint on your skis.

Thumbs Up

post #8 of 25

X2 on repeated waxing makes skis run faster. 

 

I'm a firm believer in Wax, Scrape, Brush!  And if you can, hot box em baby, hot box em!!!  :D

post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

 

We had a pair if US Ski Team member's Atomic 210cm Downhills that had been waxed so much the tips had turned red.

 

Extremely fast skis. They had been waxed and waxed and waxed and waxed and waxed. 

Betamix

post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 

I have read that speed is 80% structure and 20% wax.

That's only true if the wax jobs are equal.
Put some red klister on any structure in cold weather and you are parked.

post #11 of 25
My newer skis were slower the first season than they are now. I don't stone grind much and never use base cleaner because the performance impact is huge. I MIGHT get a very light structure grind every other year. Hate losing all that lovely wax because it takes so many waxings to recover.
post #12 of 25

I am told that the reason to not hot scrape is that the scraper can take off a bit of base when it is hot.

post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I am told that the reason to not hot scrape is that the scraper can take off a bit of base when it is hot.

 

Ditto.  I had always heard of hot scrape to "clean out" the ski, along with any dried out base material, never to "force" liquified wax into a ski with pressure.

 

And in that light, the "conglomeration" point didn't make sense to me either.  If I have a low temp wax on, and then hot scrape with a low melt, doesn't that clean out the base?  Otherwise the only way to really get out old "dirty" hard wax would be a chemical base cleaner or to ski it until it's been entirely worn off by the snow?

post #14 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

I am told that the reason to not hot scrape is that the scraper can take off a bit of base when it is hot.


I hadn't thought of that.

But I don't see any black ptex on the scrapings when I do it.

It is just a light scrape to get most of the wax off so the final cold scrape is easier.

I use a lot of wax cause I'm terrified of overheating the bases.

 

Now to go dig out my driveway, again.

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

I think the many, many cycles thing is correct.

That's one good reason not to use base cleaner.

Some say to never use it unless you spill paint on your skis.


Swix Glide Wax Cleaner is not a wax remover.  It does not remove hydrocarbon waxes from the base.  It will soften them a bit only.  It is a very effective way to clean the base.  It is the only product I know of that will clean fluoro from a ski base.

If you have never tried it, don't assume it's like a wax removing base cleaner.  It is not.

Hot scrape all you want.  It's messy and waste of a lot of wax.

Also as most of you know I have a huge hot box that goes up to 158 F degrees if I want.  I usually stick to 150 F though.

http://www.swixsport.com/eway/default.aspx?pid=278&trg=MainPage_6117&MainContent_6179=6117:0:24,2740&MainPage_6117=6138:55075::0:6118:10:::0:0

 

post #16 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 


I hadn't thought of that.

But I don't see any black ptex on the scrapings when I do it.

It is just a light scrape to get most of the wax off so the final cold scrape is easier.

I use a lot of wax cause I'm terrified of overheating the bases.

 

Now to go dig out my driveway, again.


I've hot scraped used kids skis I picked up that were completely base burned, and the wax comes off basically black with base material for the first three scrapes.  I always through that was a bad thing.  From what I'm reading now, that's probably a good thing, relative to the condition of the bases in question. 

 

Seems like there are two apects to hot scrape cleaning. First is you can break down the fuzz that has accumulated from base burn, if you don't have a metal scraper.  Second, you can "flush" debris out of the base with a puddling "wave" action as you scrape in overlapping strokes, but for this, the wax has to be actually flowing, not just soft.

 

With bases that aren't frazzed up poor maintenance, then I don't see any p-tex on my hot scrapes either.

post #17 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Swix Glide Wax Cleaner is not a wax remover.  It does not remove hydrocarbon waxes from the base.  It will soften them a bit only.  It is a very effective way to clean the base.  It is the only product I know of that will clean fluoro from a ski base.

If you have never tried it, don't assume it's like a wax removing base cleaner.  It is not.

Hot scrape all you want.  It's messy and waste of a lot of wax.

Also as most of you know I have a huge hot box that goes up to 158 F degrees if I want.  I usually stick to 150 F though.

http://www.swixsport.com/eway/default.aspx?pid=278&trg=MainPage_6117&MainContent_6179=6117:0:24,2740&MainPage_6117=6138:55075::0:6118:10:::0:0

 

 

I'm with you on this brother but good luck convincing some folks that Glide Wax Cleaner is NOT a wax REMOVER.  I have a friend that is allllllll about the hot scrape.  He hot scrapes more than anyone I know.  I showed him my glide wax cleaner and even used it on a set of SG skis right in front of him.  He told me he was sure it was a wax remover because it had a citrus smell to it. lol

post #18 of 25
Jacques, I thought the that product was just for flouro wax. does it do the same thing for hydrocarbon wax? Sorry if it's in your video, I'm not at a computer and my battery is low.
post #19 of 25

@ Dakine

 

Concerning #1 hot scraping:

 

Many technicians do hot scrape every time they wax, others choose to hot scrape less frequently.

However both methods can result in skis maintained at the highest levels as long as the bases are always clean before hot waxing and

they are kept saturated with base prep, never letting the base become dry before applying glide or race waxes.

 

Personally I hot scrape whenever waxing to insure the dirt is out and I am not ironing dirt particles into my base.

 

 

Concerning #2, the diminished performance of your USST skis:

 

<<<you wrote>>>

 

"I have been using hard wax this winter a lot" .... "slathered them with  double and triple high fluoro overlays"

 

And added:

 

"I would like to think it was structure but they didn't look like they changed much in the 50 or so runs I am talking about.

My skis usually run faster than most but after I tasted that USST Cool-Aid, I want more.

 

What's the deal?"

<<<

 

Lets start with your comment indicating you have been using hard waxes a lot.

Hard waxes do not penetrate the base well and actually push out soft prep waxes, slowly drying out the base every time you iron on hard waxes.

 

And,

 

If your bases are over fluorinated (from double and triple high fluoros) this will not allow waxes to penetrate deep into the base resulting in quick loss of waxes while skiing.

Once the wax is gone, then you are skiing on a dry base and are now slowly grinding the base material (and structure) away while skiing without good lubrication. The result

is the skis get a little bit slower every time you ski.

 

They need to be brought back to zero and waxed to perform

 

Recommend:

 
Two hot scrapes with Renew Graphite.
One travel wax with Renew Graphite, wait overnight, scrape and brush. 
One coat of graphite Zoom, wait overnight scrape and brush.
One coat Bullet, wait 1-2 hrs, scrape and brush

Race Zoom, wait overnight, scrape brush and ski

 

Got to: www.dominatorwax.com for more details on waxes and how to maintain your skis for best performance.

 


Tom

post #20 of 25

Hey Tom, since everyone sees/calls things a little different, what do classify as a "hard wax" ?

post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post

Jacques, I thought the that product was just for flouro wax. does it do the same thing for hydrocarbon wax? Sorry if it's in your video, I'm not at a computer and my battery is low.


That's what I though when I first got some.  It works to clean (not remove) the wax on the ski.  If it also cleans out fluoros it's a win win.  I have used it for some time now and am very happy with it.

post #22 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominator Tom View Post
 

@ Dakine

 

Concerning #1 hot scraping:

 

Many technicians do hot scrape every time they wax, others choose to hot scrape less frequently.

However both methods can result in skis maintained at the highest levels as long as the bases are always clean before hot waxing and

they are kept saturated with base prep, never letting the base become dry before applying glide or race waxes.

 

Personally I hot scrape whenever waxing to insure the dirt is out and I am not ironing dirt particles into my base.

 

 

Concerning #2, the diminished performance of your USST skis:

 

<<<you wrote>>>

 

"I have been using hard wax this winter a lot" .... "slathered them with  double and triple high fluoro overlays"

 

And added:

 

"I would like to think it was structure but they didn't look like they changed much in the 50 or so runs I am talking about.

My skis usually run faster than most but after I tasted that USST Cool-Aid, I want more.

 

What's the deal?"

<<<

 

Lets start with your comment indicating you have been using hard waxes a lot.

Hard waxes do not penetrate the base well and actually push out soft prep waxes, slowly drying out the base every time you iron on hard waxes.

 

And,

 

If your bases are over fluorinated (from double and triple high fluoros) this will not allow waxes to penetrate deep into the base resulting in quick loss of waxes while skiing.

Once the wax is gone, then you are skiing on a dry base and are now slowly grinding the base material (and structure) away while skiing without good lubrication. The result

is the skis get a little bit slower every time you ski.

 

They need to be brought back to zero and waxed to perform

 

Recommend:

 
Two hot scrapes with Renew Graphite.
One travel wax with Renew Graphite, wait overnight, scrape and brush. 
One coat of graphite Zoom, wait overnight scrape and brush.
One coat Bullet, wait 1-2 hrs, scrape and brush

Race Zoom, wait overnight, scrape brush and ski

 

Got to: www.dominatorwax.com for more details on waxes and how to maintain your skis for best performance.

 


Tom


Truth right there! 

Although I have chosen not to hot scrape so often, Tom is the man.  So right about it all above.  Since I don't use a lot of hard waxes or fluoros too much, sometimes I choose the Swix Glide Wax Cleaner.  I have found that without good base prep with soft waxes like the Base Renew line of waxes nothing works as well after the fact.

post #23 of 25
Thread Starter 
Thanks, great info here. I caused some confusion by mentioning the cold waxes.
My questions are about waxing in general for speed.
But, right now my skis have been waxed many times with hard wax and I need to bring them back to spring conditions.
Should I clean them thoroughly with several hot scrape cycles or cleaner...
Or should I start laying softer waxes over what already there?

I'm contemplating a NASTAR comeback so cold snow, sun and warm air will be the conditions.
post #24 of 25

@ dakine

 

My personal recommendation is to skip the base cleaner and just hot scrape to get them clean "unless" the skis are new, freshly ground, very dirty or covered with grease or pollen.

 

Good luck with the comeback!

 

Tom

post #25 of 25
Thread Starter 
Tom...
That,s the direction I am comfortable with.
I know a bunch of guys that use your products with great success.
I have been using Swix stuff for a long time and am stuck with it because I have a bunch I'm still working through.

Once upon a time I was into polymer physics and know some Flory solubility theory.
Not comfortable with putting a bunch of small solvent molecules into my bases that may affect the wax that is there and won't come out.
I think I'll hot scrape a bunch and wax as I have been doing.

If the weather breaks right I'll get out the speed suit and see if I can still beat my bros.
Maybe I can still pull a 10.
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