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Another MA (Northeast intermediate)

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 

Time to do this again. I've got three videos, first one is trying to do short-ish radius turns (steering, or maybe more like skidding) other two are longer turns (carving). I thought the backseat was a thing of the past, but in video 3 it almost looks like it's still there. I definitely don't feel it anymore though. In video 2 unfortunately I was cropped when passing by.

 

I know someone will say I should complete my turns. I still don't fully understand that. I don't see anyone else do it, and I don't do it myself unless it's steep enough. There's just not enough fun in doing it on hills like these. It will slow me down too much. I took a lesson a few weeks ago and this was one of the things my instructor had me work on.

 

What else can you tell me? I'm planning on taking a lesson next weekend, what may be good things to ask about?

 

http://youtu.be/qe1PGBFSrGE

http://youtu.be/Q5lsbGm1td8

http://youtu.be/I6HwRXoktZc

 

I don't know why but YouTube is not playing these in HD for me, hope it works.

 

Here's my last MA in case you're interested.

http://www.epicski.com/t/123871/ma-help-me-get-out-of-the-backseat-northeast-intermediate

post #2 of 25

complete turns aka skiing a slow line fast. this tactic and doing a complete turn/slow line fast lets us apply our skills in much more efficient and more fun way. 

 

It has everything to do with the shape NOT the size of the turn. but is a very abstract idea. Let me explain......

 

In good to great modern skiing we are choosing a path on the mountain and skiing that path as quickly as we possible can, the path it self should slow us down. Basically the closer to a Complete  "C" the more the turn shape vs the amount of skidding/pivoting(and in your case stem stepping) slows us down. basically minimal skidding/pivoting/stepping elect = good, a path that in it self slows us down = good, and pivoting/skidding/stepping as our default move = bad.

 

These C shape can be eventually connected to make S shapes that let us choose a path that actually slow you down. 

 

the opposite of complete turn would be pivot slips or linked hockey stops. Most peoples skiing fall somewhere in between, or in your case you are making a C shape but you just not doing the whole C.say for given slope your C should be going 180 degrees, but instead your C is only going 120 degree. this can vary given slope/pitch/snow/skier goal/desired speed and that is why there is no "right" answer to how much a turn should be completed beside the all encompassing ski the slowest line desired as fast as possible.

 

 

watch this and pay attention this will answer a lot about turn shape. 

 

post #3 of 25

What I like about your skiing is that you're starting to tip on edge.

 

Unfortunately you're consistently falling to the inside of your turns, so your edging isn't really of benefit, other than acting as a brake. When you fall over that inside ski, here are the issues that emerge:

  • it's hard to move into the next turn, resulting in an abrupt "up-and-over" motion.
  • your flow is compromised, resulting in a series of skids
  • It's really hard to steer your skis--which is why we see a big heel push in the short radius turns. 

 

The really good news is once you learn to balance over the outside ski, you'll be able to resolve a lot of the issues mentioned above. 

 

The backseat issue from your last MA is reduced but still present. It is very hard to balance over your outside ski from the backseat :) But you're in a better place from last year.

 

Since you're going for a lesson, I don't feel you'll get much from me giving you a whack of drills. And your instructor will spot this issue pretty quickly. I would suggest though that you be open to taking your skiing to a flatter slope for development purposes. A flatter slope allows learners to get more offensive rather than defensive.

 

Good luck!

post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

Time to do this again. I've got three videos, first one is trying to do short-ish radius turns (steering, or maybe more like skidding) other two are longer turns (carving). I thought the backseat was a thing of the past, but in video 3 it almost looks like it's still there. I definitely don't feel it anymore though. In video 2 unfortunately I was cropped when passing by.

 

I know someone will say I should complete my turns. I still don't fully understand that. I don't see anyone else do it, and I don't do it myself unless it's steep enough. There's just not enough fun in doing it on hills like these. It will slow me down too much. I took a lesson a few weeks ago and this was one of the things my instructor had me work on.

 

What else can you tell me? I'm planning on taking a lesson next weekend, what may be good things to ask about?

 

http://youtu.be/qe1PGBFSrGE

http://youtu.be/Q5lsbGm1td8

http://youtu.be/I6HwRXoktZc

 

I don't know why but YouTube is not playing these in HD for me, hope it works.

 

Here's my last MA in case you're interested.

http://www.epicski.com/t/123871/ma-help-me-get-out-of-the-backseat-northeast-intermediate

 

Nemesis, what do you want to accomplish with your lessons?

What do you currently like about your turns and your skiing in general, and what do you not like and want to change?

Do you have long term goals with your skiing?

post #5 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metaphor_ View Post
The really good news is once you learn to balance over the outside ski, you'll be able to resolve a lot of the issues mentioned above.

 

Does balancing over the outside ski mean having my weight on that foot? My instructor seemed somewhat against this, and in a previous topic I started here, it seemed a matter of preference.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Nemesis, what do you want to accomplish with your lessons?

What do you currently like about your turns and your skiing in general, and what do you not like and want to change?

Do you have long term goals with your skiing?

 

One thing I would like to work on more are short radius turns and steering, and skiing on ice. I like how I can carve long turns, but I want to be able to make quick short radius turns as well. I've seen some people make turns that last only half a second to a second. That's what I'd like to be able to do.


Edited by nemesis256 - 2/24/14 at 7:23am
post #6 of 25

if your coach is against balance on your outside ski, I would get a new coach. 

post #7 of 25

^^ What Josh said.

Or perhaps probe what's on your instructor's mind.  Miscommunication may be happening.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/24/14 at 7:13am
post #8 of 25
 
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

One thing I would like to work on more are short radius turns and steering, and skiing on ice. I like how I can carve long turns, but I want to be able to make quick short radius turns as well. I've seen some people make turns at last only half a second to a second. That's what I'd like to be able to do.

 

Ask your instructor to teach you to do pivot slips.  Then practice like crazy until you can do them straight down the hill, without traveling left or right.  

If your instructor cannot do pivot slips, get a different instructor.

This is not easy; it's a torture drill because you think you're doing everything right but the skis keep taking you left and right.  

Figuring out how to stay in a narrow corridor as you pivot the skis left and right is an eye-opener.

Pivot slips will get you balanced over your skis.  Pivot slips will get your upper body/lower body separation working.

Pivot slips will do lots of things, and they will open the door for learning to make very short radius turns.

 b331b862_md.gif 

post #9 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

if your coach is against balance on your outside ski, I would get a new coach. 


   I'm sure it's more likely that what is heard is different than what was said.

post #10 of 25
Thread Starter 

Here's the previous posts I was referring to when I said weight on the outside ski  is a matter of preference. So you guys are saying keep most of the outside, my instructor said more or less even, and here TheRusty and zentune are saying something in between...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 

A versatile skier is able to ski with weight distribution as a result of turning forces or weight distribution changed as desired (even to 100% weight on the inside ski!). There are a number of things that can cause excess weight on one foot or the other. Without knowing what you were doing it's impossible to know if the instructors advice was correct. For example, excessive tip lead can cause loss of pressure on the inside ski. Your instructor could have been trying to get you to get the inside ski on higher edge angles so that it would engage more and therefore "accept" more weight. There is no correct weight distribution. There are only pros and cons from the weight distribution you have and how you chose to achieve it.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
there is no set-in-stone formula for inside v. outside weighting but as I like to tell people, start by at least developing an awareness of the two. By this I mean, as you ski check to see which ski/foot feels like it has more weight on it. You might be surprised to find that your inside is weighted more heavily throughout much of your turn (or you might not). This is a great way to "self diagnose" so that you can then follow your instructors advice (like flexing the inside leg more and moving out over the outside ski). 
post #11 of 25

Yessssssss.... ski instruction can be confusing.  Welcome to the dilemma!

 

If you are turning at anything above the very slowest snail's pace on groomed beginner terrain, you need the outside ski to bear most of the "weight."

How much weight on the outside ski?  It depends.

If you keep both skis equally weighted, and strive to keep this happening on steeper blue groomer terrain and while skiing with more speed, that's not good.  

You'll be "inside," and your outside ski will tend to skid away without permission.  

 

Do advanced skiers mess with this, and play around with skiing fully on the inside ski?  Do they ski on one foot just for fun? Of course.  

But they have learned to direct the forces and weight to the outside ski first.

 

I'm not disagreeing with TheRusty or Zenny, by the way.  

Hard and fast rules are not applicable with skiing.  Reference all the "discussions" here on Epic about technique.

TheRusty was speaking "without knowing what you were doing," suggesting that your instructor may have been addressing a specific issue in your skiing when he said 50/50.  

I think Zenny is implying that flexing the inside leg more, which usually helps direct "weight" to the outside ski, is worth doing.... although he is not saying that directly.

 

Your videos will help people offer advice that applies to how you are now skiing.  I'll embed them in the next post.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/24/14 at 9:01am
post #12 of 25

Here are the three videos of Nemesis skiing.

post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

 

Does balancing over the outside ski mean having my weight on that foot? My instructor seemed somewhat against this, and in a previous topic I started here, it seemed a matter of preference.

 

It would be one thing if you were skiing on both feet and are working on bumps, powder, off-piste, etc - then I'd be open to discussing adjusting how much you're balancing over each ski.

 

But since you don't balance over the outside ski at all, you're unable to steer or carve. You could basically lift your outside ski off the snow at the end of those turns, that's how much you're on the inside ski!

 

I'm not suggesting jumping from one outside edge to another. But really, get on that outside ski. Soften the inside leg as you start each turn. 

 

LF's suggestion of pivot slips will be a good challenge, if a different approach from what I'd start with. Before you get to that point, you may need to work on just sideslipping in a straight line, then work up to controlling your direction while sideslipping. 

 

Again, not suggesting any exercises yet as your instructor will help you with that.


Edited by Metaphor_ - 2/24/14 at 3:14pm
post #14 of 25

I'm with Metaphor.  

It will take some time to get to pivot slips.  Side slips is the start.

post #15 of 25
Thread Starter 

When you guys say I should have most weight on the outside ski, I assume that includes shorter turns with steering/skidding (are those twot he same thing? still not sure) like in my first video? I have no problems having my weight on the outside ski when carving, although I wasn't doing that quite so much in the videos.I have yet to try having my weight on the outside while steering/skidding.

post #16 of 25

Yes, on the short turns too.

post #17 of 25

Nemesis256, if you do not see others completing their turns, it is because you don't know how to look.  It is often not there in low level skiers, but it is most often there in very good skiers, they access it at will.

 

I know that you would like to be able to ski steeper terrain, but have trouble controlling your speed.  That's because your Z turns occur mostly in the fall line and your speed builds up and takes over. In a sense your turn begins too late and ends too early.  Basically your turn begins near the fall line (not above it), you rush in half a short radius turn (in a sense, you have used up most of the movements already, so then you go straight for a while, and then make the same turn in the new direction. 

 

Simply put, if you cannot complete a turn on easy terrain, you will not be able to do it on steep terrain.  You learn how to complete turns on gentle terrain so that you will be able to complete turns on steeper terrain.  That means turning uphill to finish writing the last part of the C.  It means investing the time in yourself to actually learn a tactic on slow and gentle terrain so that you can access it when the rubber really meets the road. 

 

You are not carving yet.  That's too bad, because, my goodness, it is fun.  And you can generate speed if you put the hammer down and really lay down an arc. 

 

Most low level skiers don't weight their outside ski enough.  When they ask how much, I say MORE.  When they ask again, I say EVEN MORE.  How much it should be is constantly changing throughout the turn.  But they find the more they give it, the more secure and in control they get.  Which gives them confidence to reach for more challenge.

 

You cannot balance over your outside ski without being able to heavily weight that ski.  If I start my turn well above the fall line and immediately lift what will become my new inside ski, and then balance on my new outside ski as the turn comes around -  that certainly means that I am balanced over my outside ski.  Most importantly, I have learned where my body needs to be to maintain that balance through the turn.  Of course, we mostly ski on two skis.  But if I can access that balance,  I have more freedom to distribute my weight between the two skis as I need to. 

 

Surfdog

post #18 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
 

You are not carving yet.  That's too bad, because, my goodness, it is fun.

Umm, what? What makes you say that? In the first video I'm definitely not, but in the other 2 I am, or at least I'm leaving thin railroad tracks. If you're looking at the snow getting kicked up, that's either my poles dragging, or the extreme loose granular snow we had doing weird things.

post #19 of 25

I see the outside ski being pushed out, resulting in an A-frame (at times)

Your outside leg trails the inside leg, and appears somewhat out-riggered

 

More patience, more steering, start the turn earlier and progress it longer (as noted already)

post #20 of 25

Sorry, Nemesis256, you are not there yet.  If you are actually carving, you move onto the edge on the old inside ski well above the fall line, balance over it, hold it, and ride the sidecut of the ski around the turn because you maintain a strong and higher edge throughout the C or S turn until you begin your transition.  If you watch a good skier carve, you will see them "lay a trench" in the snow. That indicates high edge angle and strong pressure against the snow - most especially the outside ski.  They cannot create that pressure distribution without balancing over the outside ski. 

Your center of mass must stay inside the turn radius and lead the turn.

 

Yes, you are getting edge during your quickie short turn that I have talked about.  But when you begin banking by moving your upper body back and inside, you are giving up your ability to balance over the outside ski and maintain edge pressure.  At that point more of your weight is distributed to the inside ski. That is not functional because you are back and behind.  You have much further to move to get forward enough to effectively begin the movements of your new turn.  That would mean that you are arriving later at the position where you can begin it, meaning you are starting more in the fall line, which results in more speed.  Your compensation for that is to flatten your skis and go straight for a while to give yourself time to set up the new turn.  This is less obvious on the flatter terrain of the videos, but would become readily apparent on steeper pitches.

 

Please understand that a good carved turn is the result of the combination of many things done right and is a significant accomplishment.

 

If you reread what others are saying here, we are using somewhat different language and offering somewhat different focuses, but there is more agreement on your issues than not. 

 

Surfdog

post #21 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
 

Sorry, Nemesis256, you are not there yet.  If you are actually carving, you move onto the edge on the old inside ski well above the fall line, balance over it, hold it, and ride the sidecut of the ski around the turn because you maintain a strong and higher edge throughout the C or S turn until you begin your transition.  If you watch a good skier carve, you will see them "lay a trench" in the snow. That indicates high edge angle and strong pressure against the snow - most especially the outside ski.  They cannot create that pressure distribution without balancing over the outside ski. 

Your center of mass must stay inside the turn radius and lead the turn.

So if I understand you correctly, in order to carve, I need to complete my turns ("move onto the edge on the old inside ski well above the fall line"), balance on the outside ski, and have a higher edge throughout the turn. Those first two are things that have been said many times in this thread, and the last one, I assume is what prevents me from using the entire width of the trail to complete turns. I really thought carving was only defined by leaving thin railroad tracks by riding the sidecut.

 

When do you teach at Cannon? The more I think about it, the more I think I should visit you. I just don't know if I can make a trip up there.

post #22 of 25


Stance too wide. Too much weight on inside ski. Not flexing. Slow down,round your turns and get off that inside ski,

post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

Here's the previous posts I was referring to when I said weight on the outside ski  is a matter of preference. So you guys are saying keep most of the outside, my instructor said more or less even, and here TheRusty and zentune are saying something in between...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post

 

A versatile skier is able to ski with weight distribution as a result of turning forces or weight distribution changed as desired (even to 100% weight on the inside ski!). There are a number of things that can cause excess weight on one foot or the other. Without knowing what you were doing it's impossible to know if the instructors advice was correct. For example, excessive tip lead can cause loss of pressure on the inside ski. Your instructor could have been trying to get you to get the inside ski on higher edge angles so that it would engage more and therefore "accept" more weight. There is no correct weight distribution. There are only pros and cons from the weight distribution you have and how you chose to achieve it.

 

 

The difference between what I said and what the peanut gallery is telling you know is that they are trying to help you do the former ("ski with weight distribution as a result of turning forces") without explaining all the caveats that make the latter ("weight distribution changed as desired") an equally appropriate choice. This is because it is much easier to master the former before attempting to master the latter. Right now they are telling you the cons of your weight distribution and how you are achieving it. They are telling you the pros of doing different movements to get to a different weight distribution. We could teach you to do White Pass turns (initiate turns with all your weight on the new inside foot), but this would be like trying to use a forklift at Daytona for Driver's Ed.

post #24 of 25

Hi Nemisis256;

 

I would be very happy to go out with you here at Cannon.  And there is suitable terrain for what we would work on.  I'm there on weekends now until early April. (holiday periods are just over).  As I mentioned to you in our private correspondence, the how of rounding those turns and getting more edge angle and being balanced is something I begin teaching to beginners, as well as intermediates.  You have good athleticism, so it should not be a problem. 

 

If you have not had your lesson this week at your local hill, have this conversation with him or her, hopefully an upper level instructor.   Perhaps that person will be able to begin helping you with this.  Believe me, there is plenty to know. 

 

To theRusty:  I don't disagree with your comments in the previous post.  It's just a matter of where to begin.  Too many lower level skiers balance over their inside ski at least some of the time, and in a dysfunctional manner.  The idea is to get them to be aware that they can balance over the outside ski and should be able to do that (most of the time I would say).  As you allude to, it is not the only game in town, but it may add confusion to offer that as an alternative at this stage of development.  We build a house brick by brick. 

 

Surfdog

post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

 

The difference between what I said and what the peanut gallery is telling you...

 

Really?

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