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Mogul Skiing - some observations...... - Page 3

post #61 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

Is an "early rise" ski essentially a rockered ski?

 

Yes, sort of.  Early rise is one of the many terms, but it doesn't imply full rocker (i.e. no camber).

post #62 of 75

Depends on what you mean.  A traditional full-camber ski makes it easier to turn by immediately engaging the business end of the ski, slicing in and drawing you straight into the turn without stopping to ask if you really meant to do this.  If you want to carve a faster arc-2-arc line and the line isn't too challenging for you this works best.

 

The early rise makes it "easier" to initiate the turn by smearing out the turn entry a bit, negotiating the turn entry for you as it were, and thus not requiring as much skill to comfortably initiate a turn from someone with low skill, and also (and more importantly for race skis) via the same physics allows a more aggressive approach to be taken by someone with high skill than he might have to take without the early rise.  It makes it harder to mess up the turn entry, hence easier to turn.

 

It also makes pivoting to a steering angle easier, but who really cares about that?:duck:

post #63 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Rusty, since you don't you think that the early rise tip helps the ski bend into shape once its tipped on edge, why do you think it helps get the turns started easier?


This question has been answered in this thread already and in the link I posted.

post #64 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

Here is an analogy for you TDK, well they probably don't play much baseball in Finland, but try to imagine.

Take a baseball and throw it as hard as you can. Now take a lighter tennis ball and throw it as hard as you can. You will not be able to throw the tennis ball nearly as fast as the heavier baseball, and you will probably throw out your arm trying.

 

Here are the facts for you: first you agree with Rusty that a ski with early rise bends less and then you suddenly say it bends more. Still your saying you are right and I'm wrong. Or actually trying to wiggle your way out by hoping I know nothing about baseball.....

Hmmm - facts are not always what they seem to be. I did not say that an early rise ski bends less. I only disagreed with "help the ski bend once it is tipped on its edge." I do agree with Josh's comment, but I'm not interested in arguing with you. This is a thread about mogul skiing. Arguing is straying too far from the topic and is not likely to go anywhere anyway.

post #65 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Unless the same kind of short turn technique you are using on a groomer is a pure carved railroad-like-track turn.

Is a non-carved speed controlling short radius turn defensive?

 

Edit: Well you can carve clean turns on many bump runs making GS or SG turns but it is a very rough and jarring ride, even if you are good at absorbing terrain, and avoiding spearing the moguls, and I would not call that good bump skiing.

There is a legendary(and mocked) skier here(Telluride) who never misses a day, ever.  He is a famous vegan and woodsmith who is alternatively loved/derided but you gotta admit he has staying power, he's been at it for 40 years.

 

His windshield wiper technique of the pre shape days may have looked elegant and smooth, but the locals loved to riducule him for it.  The thing was his skis, and himself were never damaged as he slid over stumps and rocks over and over again for a hundred thirty-some days every year.

 

These days, even he scarves his way through the bumps in a nice sinewave.

 

Now a noncarved speed short radius turn is defensive, to my eyes at least when the drift is in the tail half versus the tip half.  Grasping this tip drift concept took me from struggling to actually skiing in the bumps.

 

I have been such a convert, once the moguls become misshapen tailscraping terminator lines, I traverse to shop for another line.  Sure you can bank off the sides, but when they are nearly verticle with the sole smooth line in the fastest trough, I'm out of my league and I'll look for some rounder turn opportunities elsewhere.

 

I hope this answers your question satisfactorily.

post #66 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Hmmm - facts are not always what they seem to be. I did not say that an early rise ski bends less. I only disagreed with "help the ski bend once it is tipped on its edge." I do agree with Josh's comment, but I'm not interested in arguing with you. This is a thread about mogul skiing. Arguing is straying too far from the topic and is not likely to go anywhere anyway.

 

But correcting typos is kind of within your scope ehhh? When you tip a carving ski on its edge it starts to bend. The bend dictates its turn radius. If its already bent then it will initially turn easier. BTW, anything can be disagreed over, simply say I disagree. You showed it works and you are right, it doesn't go anywhere. Hurray!!!

post #67 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 


This question has been answered in this thread already and in the link I posted.

 

And in my postings as well.

post #68 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

Depends on what you mean.  A traditional full-camber ski makes it easier to turn by immediately engaging the business end of the ski, slicing in and drawing you straight into the turn without stopping to ask if you really meant to do this.  If you want to carve a faster arc-2-arc line and the line isn't too challenging for you this works best.

 

The early rise makes it "easier" to initiate the turn by smearing out the turn entry a bit, negotiating the turn entry for you as it were, and thus not requiring as much skill to comfortably initiate a turn from someone with low skill, and also (and more importantly for race skis) via the same physics allows a more aggressive approach to be taken by someone with high skill than he might have to take without the early rise.  It makes it harder to mess up the turn entry, hence easier to turn.

 

It also makes pivoting to a steering angle easier, but who really cares about that?:duck:

 

I also don't particularly like early rise and rockered all mountain skis as I find them non responsive and boring to carve with. But that does not hold true for racing skis with early rise. My 210cm SG skis for example are extremely nice to ski with as are some of the new 2014 GS skis I've tried. When tipped they engage the carve nicely and quickly bend into a much tighter turn than a regular race ski. The cambered part of the ski is still the beef of the ski and gives all the pop I need. And if you look at the WC on TV its kind of obvious a early rise ski works great.

 

Does it really make pivoting easier? At least it makes carving easier.

post #69 of 75

There are two major reason for early rise in race skis. The first reason is that they float with slightly less resistance over irregularities. This is the primary reason speed skis have had early rise for many years.

The second reason is that for a carving ski it is very difficult to make is torsionally stiff and easy to bend in the tip at the same time. 

If you introduce early rise the front of the ski can be made a bit thicker and thus torsionally stiffer. For given target edge angle, e.g. 60 degrees the early rise ski and the traditional camber ski can have the same pressure distribution. At higher angles the early rise will be stiffer, i.e. more pressure towards the tip. At lower angles the early rise ski will have less pressure at the tip , going all the way to zero for low edge angles. 

post #70 of 75

I thought it was obvious. Early rise allows the ski to act/react like a shorter ski in the transition and like a longer ski through the rest of the arc. I find that a great Idea.

 

fom

post #71 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

Hmmm - facts are not always what they seem to be. I did not say that an early rise ski bends less. I only disagreed with "help the ski bend once it is tipped on its edge." I do agree with Josh's comment, but I'm not interested in arguing with you. This is a thread about mogul skiing. Arguing is straying too far from the topic and is not likely to go anywhere anyway.

 

But correcting typos is kind of within your scope ehhh? When you tip a carving ski on its edge it starts to bend. The bend dictates its turn radius. If its already bent then it will initially turn easier. BTW, anything can be disagreed over, simply say I disagree. You showed it works and you are right, it doesn't go anywhere. Hurray!!!

I usually let typos go, but a funny typo was too hard to resist when your statement was so easily contradicted. I did simply say I disagree, but then someone put words in my mouth. I still disagree with the premise that early rise helps the ski bend as a generic statement. Your continued attempts to argue are entertaining though.

post #72 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

I usually let typos go, but a funny typo was too hard to resist when your statement was so easily contradicted. I did simply say I disagree, but then someone put words in my mouth. I still disagree with the premise that early rise helps the ski bend as a generic statement. Your continued attempts to argue are entertaining though.

 

Thanks, and no hard feelings for the typo. Kind of Basmatic.

post #73 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

I thought it was obvious. Early rise allows the ski to act/react like a shorter ski in the transition and like a longer ski through the rest of the arc. I find that a great Idea.

 

fom

 

Not too obvious it turned out..... but you are right off course.... still cant let it go hahaaa

post #74 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamt View Post
 

There are two major reason for early rise in race skis. The first reason is that they float with slightly less resistance over irregularities. This is the primary reason speed skis have had early rise for many years.

The second reason is that for a carving ski it is very difficult to make is torsionally stiff and easy to bend in the tip at the same time. 

If you introduce early rise the front of the ski can be made a bit thicker and thus torsionally stiffer. For given target edge angle, e.g. 60 degrees the early rise ski and the traditional camber ski can have the same pressure distribution. At higher angles the early rise will be stiffer, i.e. more pressure towards the tip. At lower angles the early rise ski will have less pressure at the tip , going all the way to zero for low edge angles. 

 

Thanks for your insights. What I don't like about early rise is the way they go over uneven snow. Normal skis go through, early rise and rocker skis push up at the tip. Making for a very strange feeling ride.

 

BTW for the ones wondering what early rise has to do with mogul skiing a note could be made that its not that unusual to go into the moguls with a regular cambered ski and come out with an early rise.

post #75 of 75
Thread Starter 

Glad to see this conversation has moved onto ski design. I find myself feeling older when I'm looking for something "mid fat" and am presented with something around 105mm mid waist. But having been a winter sports retailer for a lot of year (previous life...), I rode a lot of changes - and all of them for the better of skiing. (my opinion of course!)

 

I've been skiing on 'early rise' skis now - and I have a pair that are 85mm underfoot that really work well in moguls. Now - the best mogul skis are the real ones - super narrow and straight - hard to find, and you would really have to ask (other then for competition or a specific day of bumping....), would you really want to own a pair for bombing around the whole mountain - which most of us do.....

 

But this loops back to my original question on mogul instruction. I have heard this - "yes these skis are wide but great in the bumps". 

 

An observation yield a different opinion - what do you all think?

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