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getting forward - Page 6

post #151 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


i dont know why at some point i said finshing aft and nobody corrected me and i thus thought that's what you meant... so you mean to finish the turn on the shins, then in transition to push the skis forward and start on the back of the boots? Wow never thought to start a turn on the tails, but i shall play with that as well... Correct me early please when i say so,ething out of place.

Cheers

 

Not even talking about starting the turn on the tails. Just allowing the skis to move away from you at the start of the turn. You may feel that you lose contact with the tongues, you may touch the spoiler, but it doesn't mean you are getting on the tails. You might even feel the tips pull more than you are used to. In fact, at the bottom of the turn when I feel most pressure on the tongues, that is where I might stand on the tails.

post #152 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Seriously.
razie, look at the montages again. They are finishing very into the boots, very flexed. Lots of force. Finish aft and you'll launch into space just like going off a mogul aft.
Then the paths of the skis/body diverge briefly. That is the "aft feeling" on the calf/back of boot. It is very brief, might not even feel the back. Body goes down the hill and by fall line pressure is really building again. Could happen before, all depends on turn shape, pitch, intent.
we're off here. This was about Mikaela not pulling her skis back, i.e. Not having shin contact in the ovals it is clearly at the end or flat, so that is what this must have been about.

Nobody questions that the body moves across the skis.

Are we all saying now that she is never on the back of the boots? That nobody should be? That we all thus pull the skis back?

Go back and read Bob's posts like 3 times and look at the images.

The answer to your questions are "No" x 3.

post #153 of 168
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

Not even talking about starting the turn on the tails. Just allowing the skis to move away from you at the start of the turn. You may feel that you lose contact with the tongues, you may touch the spoiler, but it doesn't mean you are getting on the tails. You might even feel the tips pull more than you are used to. In fact, at the bottom of the turn when I feel most pressure on the tongues, that is where I might stand on the tails.
ok, i understand. Thank you.

You are contrasting this with the idea of pulling the skis back during the transition and keeping them back.
Edited by razie - 3/15/14 at 9:29pm
post #154 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Are we all saying now that she is never on the back of the boots? That nobody should be? That we all thus pull the skis back?

Never say never, but....

I don't know about anybody else, but whenever I feel the rear spoilers digging into my calves it is because I have done something wrong.  My immediate reaction is to pull myself forward STAT, before something very bad happens.

post #155 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugottaBkidding View Post
 

 

 

I do not think anyone is debating the pull back I think we are debating when it is happening. 

 

Personally my pull back in SL style turns like PMTSer suggest is somewhere between the fall line and after the edge change. The exact moment.... really its varies. 


So I played with this a lot this weekend, varied the timing a lot too.   My conclusions are as follows:

It does move you forward;

the main benefit is tip pressure, and as such works best used when needed, and that would be last part of the turn where you are working against gravity, just before the release;

you have to keep the tails engaged at the very end too though, so like all good things, it can be overdone;

it is kind of counter to flexing to release (cross-under transition) so must be let go of along with all pressure on the downhill ski when the pressure on the downhill ski is released;

Letting the skis run wide when released (diverging skis and body paths) is sufficient to get you forward for starting the next turn.

post #156 of 168
Thread Starter 
Didn't work for me - had the funniest conditions this season: sprinkled sugar on top of something with very little grab. Not quite shiny ice, but close. Also had the worst ice scalpel in the basement, a 78mm ski, Head i.Peak 78, which is now my favorite otherwise. The only chance at a decent turn was to have early tip pressure and shoot out of the fall line. Could not convine my brain to let the skis get ahead after transition.... Will try again when more decent conditions will present themselves.
post #157 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


i dont know why at some point i said finshing aft and nobody corrected me and i thus thought that's what you meant... so you mean to finish the turn on the shins, then in transition to push the skis forward and start on the back of the boots? Wow never thought to start a turn on the tails, but i shall play with that as well... Correct me early please when i say so,ething out of place.

Cheers

For me starting a turn fore and finishing aft is about the pressure under foot, not so much the pressure on the shaft because it depends on other factors as well.

post #158 of 168

Hi guys, my first post here.

I have been reading here carefully. Let s say I agree almost fully with Bob Barnes...

I have made some researches myself. Here is a temporal diagram (in french) about a turn with a "back seat" position which I call Z position because of the shape of the skier.

 

"D" means beginning

"F" means end

 

Forward down the hill is mechanism #4

Forward "knees to ski" is mechanism #6

Feet going forward mechanism #12

 

all confirming thesis of BB.

post #159 of 168

Welcome to epicski Magnifico!

Maybe you could explain your research. The image is blurry also. Do you have a link or a better image than that screen capture?

post #160 of 168

thx Tog.

Here is my amateur blog (french):

http://ski.technique.free.fr/blog/

 

I just considered a "seat position" slalom turn and just draw a timeline.

In this timeline I dressed a list of "mechanisms" from 1 to 12. These mechanisms are simple moves as: ankle bending, knee extension, etc..

It appears that :

1/ hip extension forward down hill (mechanism #4) begins in the position where skis are flat (seat position),

2/ bending of ankles (mechanism #6) begins after, in the middle of the blue zone where you begin to engage your edges.

 

You can't bend your ankles while in a seat position! "Knees to skis" is false there.

But there is a but here, "seat position" is not a rule as skier wants to keep contact of the shoes with their shins (in the float part of the turn).

In a less sat position, in the "X" position, CoM of skier is centred in middle of shoes.

post #161 of 168
Quote:
 all confirming thesis of BB

 

 

Ain't science great!

 

:D

 

Welcome to EpicSki, Magnifico! Thank you for sharing your research.

 

Best regards,

Bob Barnes

post #162 of 168
Thread Starter 
Nah, sure I can bend my ankles while seating - he missed a -2.3 somewhere... smile.gif
post #163 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

From just thinking about it as I sit here, I'm thinking that at the transition, you shouldn't be against the back of your boots. I tend to maintain shin pressure as much as I possibly can, but I'm not sure if I keep it through the transition.  So my gut feeling is to say that my shins come to a neutral position, possibly maintaining some forward pressure.  

 

In terms of the upper body, I tend to think of it as more or less remaining stationary.  I'm not sure this is the right way to look at it, but it seems to fit my idea of good skiing in general.  Kind of like the idea that a good bump skier should be able to balance a glass of water on his head without spilling it.  Virtually all of the movement is happening below the waist.  I think what happens is more a matter of your knees coming up towards your chest because your feet are trying to move underneath your body at the transition.  When they are out to the side, there is room to open up at the hips, but as they come back underneath you, your knees need to come up so that the upper body can remain stationary.  I will have to disagree here. at transition cross under down unweighting move, is I believe what you guys are talking about you have anticipation of the upper body before your edge change. In slalom particulalry, you click the gate immediately plant out to the side and rotate. You can see it clear as a bell here in the middle image. NOtice positive shin angle still, not on back of boots. It is ddown-unweighting

 

http://www.ronlemaster.com/images/10-07-2012/

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say when you talk about being at 3.

 

With regard to the high C, I think the skis might be more loaded than you realize.  You still feel kind of weightless at that point, but I think its just the sensation that there is less weight on your skis than you feel at other points.  So it feels like there is no pressure because we are comparing it to the end of the turn where there is a lot of pressure.  I think it might also have to do with the lack of pressure on the ski.  Kind of like the pressure that is there is enough to bend the ski and create the arc, but not so much that there is significant force pushing outward.  Maybe like a sweet spot where there is just enough force to start the carve, but not enough to make it want to skid?  I think you are right though.  It might be time for some experimenting.  

 

As for the razie challenge, I might approach it more as a stay there instead of try to get there.  Like I mentioned before, I was able to keep forward, but it wasn't very efficient.  It also kind of raises the question; are the feet pulling back under the hips or are the hips moving forward over the feet?  I think it might be up to the individual how they view it, but they are kind of the same thing.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post
 

 

Not even talking about starting the turn on the tails. Just allowing the skis to move away from you at the start of the turn. You may feel that you lose contact with the tongues, you may touch the spoiler, but it doesn't mean you are getting on the tails. You might even feel the tips pull more than you are used to. In fact, at the bottom of the turn when I feel most pressure on the tongues, that is where I might stand on the tails.

You start turns forward and finish turns back recenter in transition. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Seriously.

razie, look at the montages again. They are finishing very into the boots, very flexed. Lots of force. Finish aft and you'll launch into space just like going off a mogul aft.

Then the paths of the skis/body diverge briefly. That is the "aft feeling" on the calf/back of boot. It is very brief, might not even feel the back. Body goes down the hill and by fall line pressure is really building again. Could happen before, all depends on turn shape, pitch, intent.

fore/aft balance demonstrated by Bode miller and Phil McNichol.

I particularly like Phil's explanation of

Make forward movement happen entering the turn then resist the push back as the turn progresses.

resist the push, move forward, resist the push, move forward.

post #164 of 168

I think it is important to discern and differentiate between where the pressures are felt at turn completions!

 

There is a big difference between feeling shin pressure on the tongue of the boot because of active dorsiflexion inside the boot which lifts the forefoot against the top of the boot and presses the heel down firmly on the boot board, strongly activating the tibialus anterior muscle on the outside front of the shins VS. finishing with the calf of the lower leg pressing firmly against the boot spine and strongly engaging the quad muscles.  These two scenarios could appear very similar to the observer yet are drastically different from the skier's perspective and performance perspective.

 

So when someone suggest "starting turns forward" and "finishing turns back" it can be very misleading.

post #165 of 168

Yes Bud Heishman!

 

We all need stories...here is a little one:

go to a ski boot shop with a friend, ask him (her) to put some ski boots on.

Ask him to bend his ankles...arg 90% of time he will just bend his knees trying to put pressure on the tongue of shoes :-)

Of course the right way to bend your ankle is to going forward !! that means extending both knees and hips, putting forward your CoM.

Doing so you are engaging the quad muscles (bud said) putting them vertical.

 

An other way of trying to bend your ankle is to lift the forefoot against the top of the boot (bud words!!).The boot is rigid so no bending here but you just keep contact with your shins.

 

Put your skis on now!

Going forward with your CoM is called "knees to skis" when in direction of tips of skis.

Lifting forefoot against top of the boot I call it "skis to knees" :-)

 

Use both at your convenience (both at same time or no, different timing, etc) : it depends of the kind of turn. A main point here is that in the neutral point (centre of X turn, skis flat) you should have your CoM almost vertical to the centre of boots.

 

In a high speed offensive turn (with a seat position in transition), at the end of turn while bending your outside knee you use "skis to knees" to keep contact with boot tongue. While going through the neutral point (centre of X curve) you go forward with your CoM but not ONLY in direction of skis but downhill; you just differ smoothly "knees to skis"...

 

Thats why I said I agreed with a lot of B Barnes posts :-)


Edited by Magnifico - 3/20/14 at 3:00am
post #166 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnifico View Post
 

Hi guys, my first post here.

I have been reading here carefully. Let s say I agree almost fully with Bob Barnes...

I have made some researches myself. Here is a temporal diagram (in french) about a turn with a "back seat" position which I call Z position because of the shape of the skier.

 

"D" means beginning

"F" means end

 

Forward down the hill is mechanism #4

Forward "knees to ski" is mechanism #6

Feet going forward mechanism #12

 

all confirming thesis of BB.

 

 

you should translate to english I bet your viewership will go up :) 

post #167 of 168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post



you should translate to english I bet your viewership will go up smile.gif 
post #168 of 168
I always love a good irony.
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