or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Am I sharpening enough? Too much?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Am I sharpening enough? Too much? - Page 2

post #31 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

This probably sounds obsessive, but I recorded myself sharpening with a diamond stone to see if I'm doing it right. My skiing buddy seems to think I'm going to run out of edges in a year because of how much I sharpen. I'm not sure if he's joking or not, but I know that's ridiculous.

 

So in the video, I'm wetting the stone, then wetting the edge, taking one light pass to spread the solution, and then taking the real pass to sharpen. After doing that I clean the edge with a dry and then wet paper towel.

 

My last serious sharpening job was pretty bad, so I did this type of pass twice with a 100 grit stone, six times with a 200 grit (by this time I was starting to get nailed filings) and then I think twice with a 400 grit. Also focusing a bit more where there was serious damage, and maybe doing an extra pass only underfoot. So am I spending enough or too much time for each pass? Am I doing enough or too many passes?

 

 


Oh well, I guess I'll chime in with my video seires.  Nemesis this is basic tuning.  It might help you. 

 


 

post #32 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 


Atomicman, we may not completely agree on which degree of side edge bevel to use but from reading how you tune your edge/s we are in nearly 100% agreement because I do it pretty damn close to the exact same way as you do.  I will add, I don't run my diamond files up and down the edges a specific number of times.  I nearly always use a progression of grits and basically let the diamond file tell me when to change to another grit or stop all together.  What I mean by this is when I stop feeling the diamond file is doing much cutting and I stop getting a much build up of gunk/filings on the file is when I move on to a higher grit.  Usually, at least for me, how my tools feel as I'm using them coincide with, the when and how, sharp the edge I'm working on is.  As many on this forum will tell you, it takes a certain amount of time tuning your own stuff before you develop that "feel" and know your edge is truly sharp.

 

If you need to cut damage out of your edge, nothing is going to do that except an actual file but if you have no damage and you're simply "touching up" the edge, a diamond file will get you that sharp edge.  

Thumbs Up

post #33 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post


Wait a minute, someone would ceramic the SL skis they tune but not Speed skis?!  Huh!  That seems backward to me but whatever works for you.  I know two pretty good former WC Service Techs that both say to do touch up/daily maintenance with diamond stones.  One of them has a pretty highly regarded race shop in Vermont and even shows/talks about it in one of the videos he has on his webpage.

I think there were two different tuners referenced and primoz was only referring to the final step with the angled tool, not the final polish. I can't Imagine a speed tune without ceramic as the final polish. The angled ceramic or diamond, I suspect, is a detune to remove the absolute sharp edge acheived subsequent to the polish to address slightly less than solid ice conditions.

I do a angled pass on my speed skis when racing here in CO as the courses I race on are natural snow and relatively soft. There is a balance between sharp for grip and less sharp for speed. On the natural snow, grip is less important while speed, of course, is critical.
post #34 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post
 


Wait a minute, someone would ceramic the SL skis they tune but not Speed skis?!  Huh!  That seems backward to me but whatever works for you.  I know two pretty good former WC Service Techs that both say to do touch up/daily maintenance with diamond stones.  One of them has a pretty highly regarded race shop in Vermont and even shows/talks about it in one of the videos he has on his webpage.


There was some missunderstanding... These were two different guys preparing skis for two different racers. And second, ceramic was not used for polishing but to add extra sharpness. You put it on about same angle as diamond in that pictures above I attached here, and you apply some pressure. This sharpness doesn't last long, but it's enough for one SL run, as for second run, you have skis prepared from zero again.

Msprace, I will try to remember and ask this when I see him. :)

post #35 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post


ceramic was not used for polishing but to add extra sharpness. You put it on about same angle as diamond in that pictures above I attached here, and you apply some pressure. This sharpness doesn't last long, but it's enough for one SL run, as for second run, you have skis prepared from zero again.

SO essentially it's to create a burr, like you would a straight razor, for the short lived extra sharpness?
post #36 of 51
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 


Oh well, I guess I'll chime in with my video seires.  Nemesis this is basic tuning.  It might help you. 

 


 

I actually watched all of that before making this topic! I was looking for you to do a side edge with a diamond but wasn't part of the videos. I did notice however you go both directions with the diamond stone on the base edge. I've watched other videos where they go both ways on the side edge with a diamond as well. I don't understand why some people earlier in this thread said to go only one direction. It's not like those stones have a direction to them.

post #37 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by MastersRacer View Post


I think there were two different tuners referenced and primoz was only referring to the final step with the angled tool, not the final polish. I can't Imagine a speed tune without ceramic as the final polish. The angled ceramic or diamond, I suspect, is a detune to remove the absolute sharp edge acheived subsequent to the polish to address slightly less than solid ice conditions.

I do a angled pass on my speed skis when racing here in CO as the courses I race on are natural snow and relatively soft. There is a balance between sharp for grip and less sharp for speed. On the natural snow, grip is less important while speed, of course, is critical.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by primoz View Post
 


There was some missunderstanding... These were two different guys preparing skis for two different racers. And second, ceramic was not used for polishing but to add extra sharpness. You put it on about same angle as diamond in that pictures above I attached here, and you apply some pressure. This sharpness doesn't last long, but it's enough for one SL run, as for second run, you have skis prepared from zero again.

Msprace, I will try to remember and ask this when I see him. :)

 

Doh, so except for there being two tuners, my first paragraph was totally wrong! My brain has gone as soft as CO snow. Oh well.

post #38 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis256 View Post
 

I actually watched all of that before making this topic! I was looking for you to do a side edge with a diamond but wasn't part of the videos. I did notice however you go both directions with the diamond stone on the base edge. I've watched other videos where they go both ways on the side edge with a diamond as well. I don't understand why some people earlier in this thread said to go only one direction. It's not like those stones have a direction to them.

With a file you only go one direction. diamonds up and back!

post #39 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

With a file you only go one direction. diamonds up and back!

One of the two largest manufacturers has proven that it is more beneficial to only go one direction with a Diamond Stone as well.

 

The stones don't have a direction to them, but the way the fibers lay on the ski edge, you will have a faster edge going from tip to tale only.

post #40 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by msprace View Post

The stones don't have a direction to them, but the way the fibers lay on the ski edge, you will have a faster edge going from tip to tale only.
But would the difference be perceptible to a recreational skier on your average all-mountain ski? And if it makes that much difference, why does every single video I see by a race ski tech or manufacturer show a scrubbing motion for diamonds and, for that matter, natural polishing/honing stones? Do world cup racers not care about that structural difference?

I guess I'm not arguing that the ski doesn't look like your photos, just questioning whether there's a difference in performance if you make twice as many passes from tip to tail instead of rubbing back and forth.
post #41 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by msprace View Post
 

One of the two largest manufacturers has proven that it is more beneficial to only go one direction with a Diamond Stone as well.

 

The stones don't have a direction to them, but the way the fibers lay on the ski edge, you will have a faster edge going from tip to tale only.

BS 

 

Makes no difference, my son has won 2 races recently, fastest times for 2 runs each I tuned  his ski and I went back and forth with the diamonds and always have. In order to do one of of each ski, you got tail to tip anyway.

 

 

MAKES NO FREAKING DIFFERENCE. WHEN YOU ARE SPLITTING HAIRS FARTHER THAN ATOMICMAN, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!:rolleyes

 

good lord!

post #42 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

BS WHEN YOU ARE SPLITTING HAIRS FARTHER THAN ATOMICMAN, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!rolleyes.gif

good lord!
Admitting you have a problem is the first step toward recovery!! duck.gif

To be fair, though, were the other skiers' skis tuned unidirectionally? (ooh, I'm making up words with lots of syllables!) rolleyes.gif
post #43 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 

BS 

 

Makes no difference, my son has won 2 races recently, fastest times for 2 runs each I tuned  his ski and I went back and forth with the diamonds and always have. In order to do one of of each ski, you got tail to tip anyway.

 

 

MAKES NO FREAKING DIFFERENCE. WHEN YOU ARE SPLITTING HAIRS FARTHER THAN ATOMICMAN, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!:rolleyes

 

good lord!

Glad you don't have my job then.... 

post #44 of 51

  Back and forth is fine--even according to Willy Wiltz and Dave Peszek among others...

 

    zenny

post #45 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by msprace View Post
 

One of the two largest manufacturers has proven that it is more beneficial to only go one direction with a Diamond Stone as well.

 

The stones don't have a direction to them, but the way the fibers lay on the ski edge, you will have a faster edge going from tip to tale only.

BS 

 

Makes no difference, my son has won 2 races recently, fastest times for 2 runs each I tuned  his ski and I went back and forth with the diamonds and always have. In order to do one of of each ski, you got tail to tip anyway.

 

 

MAKES NO FREAKING DIFFERENCE. WHEN YOU ARE SPLITTING HAIRS FARTHER THAN ATOMICMAN, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!:rolleyes

 

good lord!


Yea, that's splitting hairs!  Anyway, if one finishes the last stones with tip to tail (which can be done easy) I believe the end result would be as msprace suggest.  Other than that, I don't know if anyone could tell the difference. A-Man is a good tuner I'm sure of that, so listen to him.

post #46 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by zentune View Post
 

  Back and forth is fine--even according to Willy Wiltz and Dave Peszek among others...

 

    zenny

That's fine, this manufacturers study was done this past summer and just presented to us in September.  

post #47 of 51

This thread has sort of gone in multiple directions.  First, it was about whether diamond stones/files could get edges sharp.  Then it was that diamond stones were pretty much just for polishing and now it's about diamond stones/files should only be used in one direction.

 

First, as has already been stated, they work very well doing touch up and maintenance filing to get a sharp edge.  If you have some sort of damage that you want removed from the edge, a diamond stone/file is NOT what you will use.  That type of work will require an actual file.

 

Second, with regard to diamond files like the moonflex, they are misrepresented when they are referred to as polishing files/stones.  I have multiple in every grit and use them daily but they are anything but a polisher.  If you truly want a smooth polished edge, actual polishing stones are what you will need to use.  Is it a big deal that edges aren't polished perfectly smooth?  I don't believe it is unless you're a World Cup Racer and even then I would imagine it's only worth doing on speed skis like DH/SG.

 

Thirdly, I can't really see the point of only using diamond stones/files in one direction.  They don't leave a butter smooth surface, like a progression of stones would, anyway, so why would it matter.  Only going tip to tail or back and forth, it doesn't matter because neither is going to get you a smooth edge.  They'll get your edge sharp but it's not going to be polished smooth.  Stoning is what gets edges smooth not diamond files.

 

And, for what it's worth, I ALWAYS, use lube when I'm working my tool back and forth. ;)

post #48 of 51

I love watching tuning arguments.  Everyone has a better way.  Unfortunately for y'all... I am the king.  Undisputed.  Hands down.  :bs:

post #49 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80deg16minW View Post
 

I love watching tuning arguments.  Everyone has a better way.  Unfortunately for y'all... I am the king.  Undisputed.  Hands down.  :bs:


The "Kings" don't post here!  There are many ways and most are all good.  There is no one size fits all.  That being said, there is good info for those who seek it out here.

Seems the main thing that tuners want folks to know, is that an un-tuned ski will not ski well and hamper ones progression, where as a known good tune will not hamper progression.  Then we go into boot fitting, alignment, bindings, etc. etc.  It never ends, but it's all good.

post #50 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by msprace View Post

That's fine, this manufacturers study was done this past summer and just presented to us in September.


out of curiousity, which manufacturer was it?

zenny
post #51 of 51

It's amazing how when skis are new and have lots of edge you can't seem to get them sharp enough; sure you can shave your chin whiskers with them, but you might feel a little razor burn so better try again. And do a better job this time!  However, once you cut the sidewall back a bit and the edges are getting thin you might just say, "Meh, they shave my fingernails; they are sharp enough; I'll just not turn on the ice patches."

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Tuning, Maintenance and Repairs › Am I sharpening enough? Too much?