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I want to like crud but... - Page 2

post #31 of 48

no need for the upward bounce unless you skinny skis really. a ski like a cochise or el capo will basically smash crud at any speed by just tipping(and maybe sometime steering).

post #32 of 48

...and maybe some rebound....

post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

no need for the upward bounce unless you skinny skis really. a ski like a cochise or el capo will basically smash crud at any speed by just tipping(and maybe sometime steering).

This is true, but unless you ski crud often, its hard to justify having wide skis for that purpose.  I'm in NY where we might see powder or crud twice in a year.  I like to think that if people have been skiing crud for decades on old straight and narrow skis, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to today.  

 

That being said, if money isn't an issue, and you see enough crud to justify the investment, a wider ski will make a big difference.  

post #34 of 48
Another vote for Crudology!



http://www.epicski.com/t/111254/crudology-revisited

I think not having to use an up movement, (with a hop turn being an exaggerated example of that), shows a higher level of skill, but I was skiing some thicker/choppier crud yesterday on a pitch that was a little steeper than what I'm used to, so to deal I completed my turns a little more than normal, actually going uphill a bit at the end, and used that to get some rebound and up to help start the new turn. It helped/worked.
Edited by jc-ski - 2/23/14 at 8:51am
post #35 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Didn't read through all of this so if I'm bringing up stuff already covered forgive me. Problem for most skiers these days are proper up-down movements. Its because when you carve you only need to tip your skis and left and right you go. And on groomed trails these new skis are a breeze to skid and steer around with. However, when you go out into deeper snow and crud you need to work through the snow also vertically. Yes, its the good old up-unweighting technique coming in handy. Check out this old thread of mine for a visual: http://www.epicski.com/t/124776/how-to-ski-crud

I had not seen your thread before.  Great video.  It goes well with Bob's Crudology. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

Another vote for Crudology!



http://www.epicski.com/t/111254/crudology-revisited

Rule #1  Zip Everything!!!!

post #36 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

Another vote for Crudology!



http://www.epicski.com/t/111254/crudology-revisited

I think not having to use an up movement, (with a hop turn being an exaggerated example of that), shows a higher level of skill, but I was skiing some thicker/choppier crud yesterday on a pitch that was a little steeper than what I'm used to, so to deal I completed my turns a little more than normal, actually going uphill a bit at the end, and used that to get some rebound and up to help start the new turn. It helped/worked.

 

Nobody out on the mountain will flame you for using exaggerated up movements if you feel that's what's called for. Skiing at any level is all about feeling confidence.

post #37 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

This is true, but unless you ski crud often, its hard to justify having wide skis for that purpose.  I'm in NY where we might see powder or crud twice in a year.  I like to think that if people have been skiing crud for decades on old straight and narrow skis, there is no reason we shouldn't be able to today.  

 

That being said, if money isn't an issue, and you see enough crud to justify the investment, a wider ski will make a big difference.  

 

I mainly carve and race on a groomer so I have not yet justified buying crud or powder specific skis. And I figured that if I always skied on my race skis I would have an advantage over other racers that switched back and forth between race and all mountain skis.

post #38 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post


I think not having to use an up movement, (with a hop turn being an exaggerated example of that), shows a higher level of skill, but I was skiing some thicker/choppier crud yesterday on a pitch that was a little steeper than what I'm used to, so to deal I completed my turns a little more than normal, actually going uphill a bit at the end, and used that to get some rebound and up to help start the new turn. It helped/worked.

I would agree that your best skiers aren't going to demonstrate an obvious up and down motion, but they are applying pressure and removing pressure to their skis.  The up and down is the best way I know to learn that sensation.  

post #39 of 48

I've been a crud hater for as long as I can remember so I read this thread with a special interest.  I watched the Bob Barnes video yesterday and wasn't exactly sure what was meant by  "keep your skis going in the direction they're pointed" rule.  After watching the Canada/Sweden hockey game at 4:00am we hit the slopes with 18"s of new snow and about -7degree temperatures.  An hour into the day we had some pretty good crud going and I kept thinking about this rule and it finally clicked.  I got back onto the fronts of my boots and aggressively kept my skis going the direction I was travelling and think for the first time I know what it feels like to "blast" through crud.  After skiing some fresh tracks early in the day, I'm not sure I'd say I love skiing crud, but I sure didn't hate it.

post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

I would agree that your best skiers aren't going to demonstrate an obvious up and down motion, but they are applying pressure and removing pressure to their skis.  The up and down is the best way I know to learn that sensation.  

 

You are right. The exaggerated up and down movement is great help when learning to ski powder or crud but eventually you learn to keep that vertical movement in your legs. Extend into the turn and retract into transition.

post #41 of 48

Hey TDK, I hope my comment about up movements didn't in any way come across as some kind of diss on your skiing. I watched the video in your crud thread, and  that's the kind of smooth, capable skiing I aspire to. And as with many of the skiers in the Crudology video, (where you would fit in seamlessly), there are up movements to be plainly seen. Calm, effective up movements blended in to the overall GO approach!

 

I was thinking more of my own skiing when confronted with challenging conditions. Started out with frantic hopping and tail slinging, definitely defensive, but over time it's quieting down and getting smoother and more offensive. Not all there yet, (particularly when things get over a certain pitch), but moving in the right direction. I keep Crudology in my mind, its rules and visual models, when I find myself skiing crud, and it's been a huge help! Your vid provides more of that...

 

 

 

Great stuff!  Thumbs Up

post #42 of 48

Having just watched, with a healthy dose of fast forwarding, the "Crudology" video.  I noticed almost every full turn shown had at least some up unweighting.  I was at Alta last month in one of their expert group/mountain tour lessons and the L3 instructor was talking about tipping and steering, yet when I watched him he was unweighting, coming out of the crud to initiate the turn.  It's crud. That is how it is skied.  Sometimes you can get away with tipping and steering but start with the hopping and work it from there.  Someone had the good suggestion of starting out straight down the fall line and bouncing to get into a rhythm.  I used to do this and it does help.  I still do it occasionally if I'm a little stiff or tired, just to get me old muscles moving.  Yes stiffer skis help you track in crud however stiffer skis can make it more difficult to initiate turns and I don't love them for intermediates.  Think stability vs. maneuverability and decide which you prefer.  I prefer a bit softer myself.


Edited by crank - 2/25/14 at 1:28pm
post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
 

Having just watched, with a healthy dose of fast forwarding, the "Crudology" video.  I noticed almost every full turn shown had at least some up unweighting.  I was at Alta last month in one of their expert group/mountain tour lessons and the L3 instructor was talking about tipping and steering, yet when I watched him he was unweighting, coming to of the crud to initiate the turn.  It's crud. That is how it is skied.  Sometimes you can get away with tipping and steering but start with the hopping and work it from there.  Someone had the good suggestion of starting out straight down the fall line and bouncing to get into a rhythm.  I used to do this and it does help.  I still do it occasionally if I'm a little stiff or tired, just to get me old muscles moving.  Yes stiffer skis help you track in crud however stiffer skis can make it more difficult to initiate turns and I don't love them for intermediates.  Think stability vs. maneuverability and decide which you prefer.  I prefer a bit softer myself.

 

Thumbs Up Good posting. Why don't you fast forward my video as well. I think you might find it interesting. Tipping and steering can work in some special cases but that is not the way good skiers ski. You have made the exact right observation. You need vertical movement and momentum for proper turn initiation especially in crud and powder.

 

Its an old trick to powder skiing to start in the fall line with only bouncing up and down at first. Then slowly angling your skis to start turning.

post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saddleman View Post
 

I've been a crud hater for as long as I can remember so I read this thread with a special interest.  I watched the Bob Barnes video yesterday and wasn't exactly sure what was meant by  "keep your skis going in the direction they're pointed" rule.  After watching the Canada/Sweden hockey game at 4:00am we hit the slopes with 18"s of new snow and about -7degree temperatures.  An hour into the day we had some pretty good crud going and I kept thinking about this rule and it finally clicked.  I got back onto the fronts of my boots and aggressively kept my skis going the direction I was travelling and think for the first time I know what it feels like to "blast" through crud.  After skiing some fresh tracks early in the day, I'm not sure I'd say I love skiing crud, but I sure didn't hate it.

I absolutely love hearing that people are having breakthroughs because of the discussions we are having on here.  It makes me feel really good to be a part of a group contributing to the improvement of other skiers so that they can feel some of the joy that they might have been missing.  I hope the next time you get to ski crud, its even better for you.

post #45 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

 

Thumbs Up Good posting. Why don't you fast forward my video as well. I think you might find it interesting. Tipping and steering can work in some special cases but that is not the way good skiers ski. You have made the exact right observation. You need vertical movement and momentum for proper turn initiation especially in crud and powder.

 

Its an old trick to powder skiing to start in the fall line with only bouncing up and down at first. Then slowly angling your skis to start turning.

Isn't it possible to use tipping and steering with an up and down movement?  I mean even with the up and down, you aren't really making hop turns, you are just lightening the load on your feet as you transition.

 

Another thing.  In the clip above, you are skiing medium to long radius turns.  How much different would your short radius turns be in the crud?  I can understand using medium to long radius turns in crud, especially if its heavy wet snow, but I'm thinking about where you might have a narrow trail, or a crowded slope where you don't have as much room.  I personally just love the feel of tight short radius turns, especially in softer snow, but in heavy crud I find that I have to ski a little bit different to make them work, and even then, they just don't come around quick enough.  

post #46 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

I absolutely love hearing that people are having breakthroughs because of the discussions we are having on here.  It makes me feel really good to be a part of a group contributing to the improvement of other skiers so that they can feel some of the joy that they might have been missing.  I hope the next time you get to ski crud, its even better for you.

I know what you mean about enjoying seeing others improve, I've been trying to help my wife and a friend improve and it's pretty cool to see the smile on someone's face when something finally clicks for them.

post #47 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam View Post
 

There is a saying floating around the forums about struggling with bump skiing and being a good skier, and I suspect the same is true about crud.  You need  to learn how to engage your edges at the top of the turn,

 

lead with the hips?

Put a pillow against a wall (at home) and stand about 2ft away and then move your hips until you fall into the pillow.

repeat this until you get the muscle memory, then feel that same move on the slopes.

 

Our instructors used to have us do a drill on piste and then get off into the rough stuff for a while then back on piste. The rough stuff seemed to improve skiing but it feels awful when you're not used to it. I guess it's just practice :)

post #48 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeFiter View Post
 

Isn't it possible to use tipping and steering with an up and down movement?  I mean even with the up and down, you aren't really making hop turns, you are just lightening the load on your feet as you transition.

 

Another thing.  In the clip above, you are skiing medium to long radius turns.  How much different would your short radius turns be in the crud?  I can understand using medium to long radius turns in crud, especially if its heavy wet snow, but I'm thinking about where you might have a narrow trail, or a crowded slope where you don't have as much room.  I personally just love the feel of tight short radius turns, especially in softer snow, but in heavy crud I find that I have to ski a little bit different to make them work, and even then, they just don't come around quick enough.  

 

You are absolutely right. In every up-unweighted brushed turn you have tipping and steering. If you don't tip you don't have any edge angle. If you don't steer you cant stay in the turn and you cant control the turn shape.

 

You can turn tighter for sure. That segment was on quit a flat section of the slope and that kind of dictated the speed and turn shape. IMO I turned tighter at the top part of the clip where it was steeper. What is so great about jumping your turns is that you don't need that much space. So for narrow trails and couloirs where the snow is crud its great tactics.

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