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On avoiding Hip Dumping, is this a good tip? - Page 9

post #241 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

SMJ, read posts 213 and 223. Movements starting in the feet are what you guys are championing. I say it needs to be ongoing and simultaneous in the entire body. BTW, I didn't suggest anything about PMTS, PSIA is who I am referring to with the tipping originating in the feet and how that specific movement descriptor is being misrepresented to include all movements and thus erroneously suggesting all movements must start that low. That simply is not is the case.
Razie, As far as a lesson segment focusing on a particular body zone, it can be any part of the body. The practice of Isolating and developing a new movement pattern there and then incorporate it in the larger picture where the entire body is actively involved is the well worn path to success. so I really question why you seem to think I am suggesting a top first mantra. It is all situational and more options gives us the ability to handle more situations effectively.

JASP You are making another broad generalized statement. Can you describe a specific movement pattern that we have described in detail and specifically why you think we are missing the boat? One example. I bet you can't describe even one in detail that we have advocated. But please describe our complete point of view on a specific thing and then comment how you think we are in err and what YOUR movement pattern would be that allegedly uses more upper body coordination. I don't think you can describe even one thing correctly but these generalizations you keep making are getting tiring.
post #242 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post
 

JASP  the point has not been lost on anyone but you it seems.  No one said that the whole body doesn't participate, they only said that it starts with the feet.  Why do you keep saying the "leg only focus."  ?  

 

Where has anyone said "only."  ?

 

It's just weird to me, you're arguing against something that was never said.

 

Yes, curiouser and curiouser. If I remember correctly (and I have an excellent memory), JASP has written recently in this forum that one of the factors that motivates him to post is a desire to improve his written communications skills. It's not working.

post #243 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

 

Yes, curiouser and curiouser. If I remember correctly (and I have an excellent memory), JASP has written recently in this forum that one of the factors that motivates him to post is a desire to improve his written communications skills. It's not working.

 

His writing skills can be very good, I believe it's his reading skills that are sometimes subpar.

post #244 of 254

  I helped a Level 2 today who is working on teaching progressions for her L3 exam. One progression she wanted to work on was turn initiation. I gave her a short talk on Direction Domain and Time Domain and then we went to work...

 

  Step one was moving to the bof of the new outside along the longitudinal axis of the ski (D.D.) at the top of the turn to pressure the tip(s).

 

  Step two was sideslips with an emphasis on the hips moving down the fall line first to flatten the skis such that it was a perpendicular movement of the CM--relative to step one (and was purely T.D.).

 

  Step three was to split the difference between the two so that the "forward movement" was more or less a blend of steps 1 and 2. This last step requires an anticipated/properly positioned upper so that the pelvis aims towards the apex at the time of the movement into the new turn. 

 

   How's that for focusing on the upper? The whole body is engaged at every moment in skiing, but it is not always appropriate or even possible to get a student to focus on their entire bodies--that's why we break things down into smaller "bite-sized" movements, so as not to overwhelm them. Perhaps as @chad  says, we are multitaskers by nature (as humans), but I'm not so sure that focusing on the whole is always the best approach.....

 

   zenny

post #245 of 254
BTS, I used to teach everything you guys have suggested. As most of us did. We moved away from that because it was producing some very static torsos among our students.
One very important drill I learned from Bob is one footed sideslips on the flattest terrain you can find. Foot and lower half movements without the pelvis and the rest of the upper half moving simultaneously over the ski result in failure to accomplish this very simple task. Ric Vetromile does the same drill BTW. As do many examiner and demo team members and coaches. And that is only one such drill. Same goes for my Hula drill. The feet articulate as a consequence of the hips swinging through that circle. Trying to produce the same results by flexing and extending the legs results in failure to do the task.
That's only two drills BTS, but I mentioned a new thread a while back to discuss activities.
post #246 of 254
To address the "isolate to develop" concept read your 96 Alpine Manual. It is hardly a nebulous and unclear concept. Nor is it a plug and play progression. It is a teaching technique we use to this day. Do your homework BTS, it's painfully obvious you haven't.
Edited by justanotherskipro - 3/4/14 at 10:44am
post #247 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

BTS, I used to teach everything you guys have suggested. As most of us did. We moved away from that because it was producing some very static torsos among our students.

monkey see monkey do - how can you get static torsos if your demos are not static, whatever drills you do?

post #248 of 254
Most of us teach or coach. Most of us are also taught and/or are being coached. Having said that, I would direct some of the posters here's attention to the third and fourth tiers (from the bottom) of Maslow's pyramid as it relates to a students needs.

Just some food for thought.

zenny
post #249 of 254
Monkey see monkey do.
Not so much. Even for monkeys.
Monkeys do as monkeys do.
Dancers are better than monkeys at new things by sight.
The question is , "What are they seeing?"
post #250 of 254

Razie, You are assuming students will actually move their torsos accurately and effectively without some sort of learning segment that addresses how to do that. And that has been my point all along. Seeing those students assuming a stable torso means an immobile one was quite common back a few years ago. It made the ed staff here in RM re-think that concept of movements always starting in the feet. We didn't return to the Arlberg days of big upper half movements and the comma positions of Stein's era but the reintroduction of how accurately move the upper body was something that sprang out of that thinking. The hangover effect where many still hang onto that feet first stuff is obvious, especially here in this thread. It begs the question that if left to their own devices, will a student learn to avoid the huge upper half errors we see so commonly during their development into the intermediate zone. I really doubt it. Which bring up the point that a segment with a focus on how to move your upper half effectively and efficiently is reaaly no different than learning how to move your lower half effectively and efficiently. That is my take on what Chad was stating.

 

So all the attacks aside, Chad's question obviously goes against the convention many of you hold onto as Gospel. I have yet to read supporting evidence, or any studies that would confirm your conclusions though and my efforts here are to challenge that sort of thinking because it leaves the whole idea of developing more accurate upper half discipline and usage to chance. It really isn't more than a hill of beans outside of this site and all the stuff you wrote about "if" I taught upper half only stuff totally missed the point that a segment might be where that occurs but the lesson would be incomplete if it didn't include the blend and apply segment where those new upper half moves were incorporated into the larger picture of the entire body participating in our skiing.


Edited by justanotherskipro - 3/4/14 at 11:15am
post #251 of 254
JASP your commentary is becoming more productive today, please continue on that path.

Unfortunately I don't have older PSIA materials but I have heard they are better then now.

You should know by now that I have been a strong opponent of the magical quiet upper body skiing into counter dogma that has definitely produced dead upper halves or worse. You get absolutely no argument from me there! But lets get more specific about what an active upper half means. If it means using your upper half to move your CoM across at edge change, then our agreement ends there. I see the upper half as being engaged in counter action and counter balance activities, very active, but not quite in the way it seems you and chad have argued. But perhaps you can be more specific about this activity. Also some finer movements related to pole handling.

None of the people you have been criticizing here condone a dead upper body. We agree about activity level. It's not clear we agree about specific movements. Pretty sure we don't.
post #252 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The question is , "What are they seeing?"

 

Exactly. [then ducks quickly out of the teachers' lounge]

post #253 of 254

true enough - monkey see monkey do is not even close to 100% and needs augmented with words and more drills. can't help but think though that most of the drills we do in fact target the upper body more than the lower body...? even starting with braquage or pivot slips - first thing is to keep the torso facing down the slope, for instance... there's tons of angulation and separation drills etc...?

 

just quickly looking at the CSCF drills guide and the ratio between drills for edging & pivoting versus balance and coordination are about 1:4-5, i.e. more than 4-5 times more drills listed for different aspects of balance and coordination versus traditional lower legs i.e. edging/pivoting...?

 

cheers,

razie

post #254 of 254
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

The question is , "What are they seeing?"

very important point and one that is ignored by most coaches i see. to those that care to improve as coaches, i can only very very strongly recommend the book "Practice Perfect: 42 Rules for Getting Better at Getting Better".

 

http://www.racerkidz.com/wiki/Blog:Razie_Coaching_Blog/Post:Review_-_Practice_Perfect_42_Rules_for_Getting_Better_at_Getting_Better

 

15 - model and describe

16 - call your shots

19 - inssist that they walk this way

22 close-up (video)

 

cheers

 

edit/ps - dancers are already experts learning new patterns of applying the skilsl they already master... should be easier... also it's more like walking/running than falling... like a racer inspecting a course? i was involved with competitive dancing (at a low level) long time ago...


Edited by razie - 3/5/14 at 4:23pm
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