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East Coast Academy - Page 2

post #31 of 48
Thread Starter 
Conditions are what you make of them. I skiied 100+ days this year, and I can only remember 2 or 3 days that were "bad".
post #32 of 48
Originally posted by epic:
Conditions are what you make of them. I skiied 100+ days this year, and I can only remember 2 or 3 days that were "bad".
Epic, I agree with you, but those flatlanders are a bunch of crybabies who whine all day if the valet parking is closed.


[ April 25, 2003, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
post #33 of 48

You Said:

" Conditions are what you make of them. I skiied 100+ days this year, and I can only remember 2 or 3 days that were "bad". "

How did this season compare with your 10 or 20 year average? Was this season an anomaly? I agree, from all reports, it was a fantastic year in the East. But is it just as likely to be a poor one next year? When selecting a venue, we need to take into account it's history and reliability. Not the short history of a single, exceptional season.
At the same time, let me express that the West is not impervious to its own droughts and poor snow seasons. But it's reliability is perhaps better than that of the East.

There have been cases made on both sides of this question. But if my colleagues on the ESA OrgComm will allow me, I would venture that the ESA2004 will be held in the West, likely Utah or Colorado.

We are waiting for info from several areas, and will hopefully be able to announce the selected venue in the near future.

As for ESA2005? Who knows, maybe it will be held in the East. That will be a decision influenced by the skiers participating, and made by the ESA OrgComm.

post #34 of 48
Conditions in the east were exceptionally good THIS year but that's no guarantee for next year.

John Dowling

If your comment regarding valet parking was directed at my comment in another thread, I was only making a joke about others in that thread who disrespect "wealthy skiiers" (anyone spending more than $1000 for a ski week) for going to "Deer Valet"

I personally have never used valet parking in my life, but I have to admit I've thought about it during the long walk from the parking lot at Mount Snow, carrying my skis & my kid's skis & etc. & wondering what kind of damage the gravel parking lot was doing to my boots.

Also I'm not a "New York City Type," I live 60+ miles from NYC in rural NJ (I know most people don't believe such a place exists)

If your comments were directed at someone else, please disregard the preceding.

[ April 25, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: droldman ]
post #35 of 48
Thread Starter 
This was my first year at Stowe, and from what I hear, we have had better years, and certainly worse ones. Stowe is handicapped by a lack of water for snowmaking, so we were lucky that this year the snow came in early (Oct.) and we never had a thaw. One big rainstorm on New Year's Eve followed by our sub-zero arctic plunge. New Year's Day had the worst snow of the year, but I think I was just about the only one on the mountain that day. We missed all of the big storms which stayed south of us, but had 300 or so inches total (I remember official snow fall being 281" a month or so ago. I thnk when all was said and done, we only used 1/3 of our water, and that was mostly for the terrain park and 1/2 pipe.

Most of my other years were at Okemo and I've skiied Thanksgiving Day every year since '82 or '83. Often only one trail, but more often a decent number. This year they must have had awesome amounts of snow, every storm hit them hard. Hopefully next year it will be our turn.

Anyway, I thought we were talking about an East Coast Academy in addition to a West Coast Academy. It seems ludicrous to replace the West Coast one with an East Coast one, I think you could have both.Our hills are smaller, make no mistake, but if Stowe could keep me entertained all year, I'd hope the academy could have fun on an East Coast hill for 3-5 days.

We got 6" last night, but the mountain is closed.... oh well.

edit: I guess I didn't answer your question... I'd say conditions were average overall. I had some days that were well above average though. Maybe not best ever, but you can have fun even when as Oboe says, you have to "wax for moss".

[ April 25, 2003, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: epic ]
post #36 of 48
This was NOT a fantastic year in the east. It was average at best. The only places that were significantly better than average were in Southern Vermont, Massachusetts, and New York. Jay Peak was 48" BELOW average. Cannon was 25" BELOW average. Sugarloaf was 35" BELOW average, and so it goes. The fact is that 150" of snow in a season is all that most eastern mountains need. The rockies NEED 300"-500" to get by with little or no snowmaking. There's a reason that they are called the "ROCKY" mountains. Those puppies need alot of snow to be skiable. Ours don't.

Last year was widely regarded as a crappy year (at least until march). But in that "crappy" year Jay Peak got over 400" of snow for the third year in a row. They haven't dropped below 300" for 7 years. They average more snow than most of the accesible Colorado areas (Loveland, Summit County, Vail, etc...), and they have base building snowmaking AS WELL.

Stowe has had over 300" for 6 of the last 7 years. Smuggler's Notch had 300"+ all 7 of them. Killington breaks 300" about every 3 years, with the same average snowfall as most Montana ski areas (250").

People always complain about Ice in the eastern mountains. Bull! You only encounter unavoidable ice at the stupid mountains that like to blow snow on steep trails and then groom the piss out of them (Waterville Valley, Cannon, Whiteface, Wildcat, Stratton, Killington, Sunday River, etc...), and even those mountains aren't THAT bad.

I've been out west, and I wasn't impressed. I've even been to Utah on a powder day or two and all I found was deep snow in wide open bowls. I can have that here with a 2 hour drive, on a lift ticket that costs $20. Not only that, but here in the east we actually make our lifts go all the way to the top of the mountain. I had to hike to most of the best stuff at Alta. That takes a long time, and I don't feel like the cost of a lift ticket is justified if I have to hike all day. If I'm gonna hike, I might as well drive two and a half hours to Mount Washington and ski there.

There is only one thing the west has over the east: vertical.
The most vertical you can get in one run here is 4,763'. That's Mount Adams (5,774') down through king ravine to US Route 2.

I'll grant you can beat that out there. But who uses more than 2,000 vertical feet in a run anyway?

Alta was ok, but only on principal because there weren't any knuckledraggers. However, it's not enough of a draw to fly all the way out there.
post #37 of 48
Amount of snowfall is not the only consideration. Perhaps Jay Peak had a lot of snowfall, but the "bad" conditions at Brighton were better many of the "good" conditions here in the east.

Anyway, as epic said, he's talking about "in addition to a western Academy" and not "in place of". With another year of EpicSki Academy under our belt, we may have a better handle on whether that could be worked out. Let's see how the 2004 EpicSki Academy works out before we take another major step.

[ April 25, 2003, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #38 of 48
Originally posted by oboe:
Amount of snowfall is the not the only consideration. Perhaps Jay Peak had a lot of snowfall, but the "bad" conditions at Brighton were better many of the "good" conditions here in the east.
Lest we forget the conditions for demo day at Snowbird... that was far worse than anything I've ever encountered in the east. Moral of the story: any place, even the high-profile Utah joints, can have garbage conditions.

Looking forward to a possible Eastern Academy in 2005.
post #39 of 48
My comments were not directed at you. My resentment of rich NYC guys is obviously the result of my failure to actually become one of them, due to a series of unfortunate career choices.
I'm sorry if I offended you.


[ April 25, 2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: John Dowling ]
post #40 of 48
Oh, yes, that day at Snowbird was horrid. Nevertheless, we gotta play the odds. The OTHER seven days at the 2003ESA and gathering were not too shabby.
post #41 of 48
Thread Starter 

It's 8-9 months until an '03-'04 ESA would be held. My memory mat be fuzzy, but isn't that roughly the time frame that ESA I was assembled in? Wouldn't it be safe to assume that lessons learned in the organization of ESA I would apply here, and could make an EC ESA easier to prepare?
post #42 of 48

Snowfall totals only tell part of the story, since rain & freeze/thaw cycles take their toll on the trails.

The reason this year was pretty good, despite lower than average total snowfall at some areas, was because we had fairly consistant COLD temperatures, preventing erosion of base.

Perhaps I'm spoiled by Hunter Mountain, where they REALLY take care of their snow, with consistant base depths of 60"-100"+ when many areas in VT were reporting 28"-60"

And while I mean no disrespect to Vermont areas, even in mid-season, there were many bare areas, the troughs in some bump runs were grass & there were lots of exposed rocks on some steep runs.

These conditions, while possibly no problem for expert skiiers, can introduce unwelcome challenges to those of us still developing skills.

If the point of the academy is focusing on technique, then perhaps attempting to factor out variables like bad or inconsistant conditions is a good idea.
post #43 of 48
Thread Starter 
Oops.. hit the back button too many times, posted again.

[ April 25, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: epic ]
post #44 of 48
droldman says...
I've been told that with a 6:00 am flight from Newark, you can be skiiing the same day at Snowbird.

Of course this doesn't take airfare into account.
..We could do this...

IF we still have functional airlines by then [img]tongue.gif[/img]
We then fly;
ELSE we all agree to ski Somewhere and sleep in Ott's RV; [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/evilgrin.gif[/img]
post #45 of 48
Epic, ESA I was on the verge of not being held because the original venue decided really late they didn't want us. The plan this time around is to have ALL the details worked out well before the season starts so the program can get full promotion to the membership.
post #46 of 48
Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there any particular reason why the ski area management needs to be be informed of the proposed ESA activities?

I see people not affiliated with the ski school teaching others every time I'm on the slopes.

Could they stop you even if they wanted to?
post #47 of 48
The 2003 EpicSki Academy was to be at Solitude. Assurances that management as highly placed as the owner's son were ok with this pursuaded us we had a lock on it. About two or three weeks before the Academy, the owner sent us a registered letter threatening lawsuit and prosecution if we dared have the Academy at Solitude. After some serious shuffling and some damned fine work on the part of nolo, we were welcomed at Brighton, two miles up the road from Solitude.

I will let the professional instructors respond further to this, but it is my understanding that all areas do NOT welcome such instruction-for-pay from outsiders, and as related above, some would choose to "do something" about it.

The EpicSki Academy has evolved, and I believe continues to eveolve, to be a highly professional, topflight presentation by the best of the best. "Sneaking" onto the slopes without involvement with the host mountain was examined a long time ago and discounted as a viable approach. Even at Brighton, which welcomed us with open arms because we filled a time of low activity, we had to submit our legal paperwork to their legal people and demonstrate that we are a going concern which has dotted its "i's" and crossed it's "t's". As it was, we did this without insurance, and we did strive to have as much protection from liability as possible - as did Brighton. Our experience has taught is to operate only through the usual and ordinary course of business, as too much is at stake to do otherwise.

Please do not underestimate the time, work and legal attention that went into the first Academy and which needs to go into every succeeding presentation to meet our responsibilities to all concerned - the students, the coaches, and the ski area.

[ April 26, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: oboe ]
post #48 of 48
Originally posted by droldman:
[QB]Perhaps I'm missing something, but is there any particular reason why the ski area management needs to be be informed of the proposed ESA activities?

We need to inform management of our activities if we expect to negotiate any special prices or deals for ESA. And as an instructor, I am concerned about my responsibility for injuries that may occur during the clinics at an organized event.
I'll give an example of what can happen. At one time I belonged to a bicycle racing club, whose purpose was to train for USCF races. One of the regular training events the club organized was a weekly "time trial," in which riders would ride a closed course as fast as possible. Each rider's times were recorded, but the riders rode alone. One week a pedestrian was struck by a rider and killed.
As a result of this tragedy, the club was sued, and every member who was at the event was individually sued, including some who were not even riding at the time of the accident, and some who were up to a mile away from the accident. Everyone at the event had to defend themselves at court. I never learned what the settlements were.
For me, the only way to participate in the organization of public events is to clearly state to all involved what activities are planned, assess the risks of those activities and provide adequate insurance coverage where appropriate. That's the only way ESA can grow to be a real alternative to the current ski resort monopoly ski school that so many Bears complain about in other threads here. For me, and I suspect for many of the coaches involved, the possibilty of developing an alternative teaching environment is the most important reason to participate.

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