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Blizzard Bonafide and Blizzard Brahma "ice" performance

post #1 of 12
Thread Starter 

Hello,

 

I hope this is an easy question.

Yesterday I had demo both skis: Bonafide and Brahma, both in 180 size.

I had demo them in Kirkwood, CA, the weather was great, light snowing (soft groomers).

About myself: male, 6', 200 lb, skiing about 10 years, advanced, not aggressive (no march speed either)

 

I liked both skis; however, I liked Bonafide more, I believed it was more lively, easier, stable at speed

(may be it is due to, I had demo Brahma after 2pm and was a little bit tired).

 

Here is the actual question, I found that performance of both skis on ice not greater than performance of my old Atomic metron (I believe it is 73-76 under foot).

 

On top of chair 6 at Kirkwood, there are like 10-20 yards steep icy, windy part which is like 30-40 degrees.

On either Bonafide or Brahma I could not grip and stop on that part, both skis just slide.

 

What is that:

a. normal performance on ice for mid-fat skis (90+ mm)

b. bad tune

c. lack of techniques from the skier

d. all of the above

 

Thank you,

 

Oleg

 

P.S. I liked (favor) Bonafide more and only took Brahma demo to verify if Brahma performs better on ice/thin snow better than Bonafide. Actually, Brahma is a little bit better, but not that much to actually prefer Brahma over Bonafied in my opinion.

post #2 of 12

Did you ski your Atomics yesterday on the same terrain? I compared my Bonafides--new, well tuned--to my Apache Recon rock skis (76 under foot), which have a lot of miles on them, and would have to say the K2's held on edge on firm a little better. 

post #3 of 12
All of the above. For a mid fats the Bones grip exceptionally well, especially given the aggressive 3/1 factory tune. Any decent narrow carving ski would grip better, but of course won't have enough versatility.

I'm surprised that Brahma didn't grip better, which makes me think about the lack of technique. In fact that's the main cause of lack of grip with modern skis (they are all torsion ally stiff enough to hold).

My new-to-me and very girly Rossi Radicals (68mm or so) grip ice way better than my Bonafides, but only if I remember what to do. I won't dare to take the Radicals off trail though.
post #4 of 12
Thread Starter 

what I really mean (and that surprised me a lot).

I stand parallel on these skis, so I would assume I would not have to move down, right (the ski would grip), but they (ski) didn't and I slide down (slow...)

Brahma was a little bit better (but it is a whole mile difference between even my old Atomic and Brahma and mile + 0.2 between Bones and Atomic)

 

but I guess, all of the above would be a best answer.

post #5 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

Did you ski your Atomics yesterday on the same terrain? I compared my Bonafides--new, well tuned--to my Apache Recon rock skis (76 under foot), which have a lot of miles on them, and would have to say the K2's held on edge on firm a little better. 


No, I haven't ski my Atomic yesterday (so, may be I am not that right to say that Atomic is better), but I did ski the same terrain few weeks ago and the conditions were even worse then yesterday (less snow, more ice)

post #6 of 12

Oleg- a little diagram (from Bob Barnes I believe) may help here:

 

You need to put your center of mass over the ski edge and get that edge to a certain angle relative to the snow (ice) surface.  The wider the ski is, the harder it is to achieve the proper relationship between the COM position and edge angle.  People with good edging skills (e.g. former racers) have no problem getting those edge angles and as long as the ski is stiff enough they will carve nice railroad tracks across the ice on 110+mm skis.  An average consumer usually has a lot of trouble achieving those kinds of angles, but it will be way easier to get the COM over the edge of a narrow ski.  So, standing parallel is not enough, you need to get your weight over the edge of an outside ski, then the edge will bite.  Even a race ski will slip on ice when it is not loaded properly.  It is even more true for a wide ski.  

post #7 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oleg S View Post
 

what I really mean (and that surprised me a lot).

I stand parallel on these skis, so I would assume I would not have to move down, right (the ski would grip), but they (ski) didn't and I slide down (slow...)

Brahma was a little bit better (but it is a whole mile difference between even my old Atomic and Brahma and mile + 0.2 between Bones and Atomic)

 

but I guess, all of the above would be a best answer.

 

Parallel? As in legs together parallel? I would assume, without seeing you actually ski, that the "parallel" technique you speak is hindering your ability to get the ski up on edge. The wider the ski the harder to get up on edge and easier to smear and slide, insert "parallel" technique into equation and makes it even more difficult to achieve high edge angles. To me it seems what's happening is similar to what is happening when skiing a more narrow ski and releasing edge grip on a huge patch of solid ice, result is slide over the patch then engage again on better snow. Obviously technique related.

 

As for equipment, a wider ski is not made to slice, dice, and carve like a more narrow ski. Expect more release from a wider ski. Sure, you can carve on them, in the right conditions, on the proper slopes, with the proper technique.

 

As for tuning, if you didn't do it yourself, you'll never know how it was done. You'd have to compare a freshly tuned pair of each ski, by the same person, to your specific needs to really find out.

 

So............ D. All of the above.;)

post #8 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

Did you ski your Atomics yesterday on the same terrain? I compared my Bonafides--new, well tuned--to my Apache Recon rock skis (76 under foot), which have a lot of miles on them, and would have to say the K2's held on edge on firm a little better. 


i don't think the early rise in the blizzards helps much on ice, but they probably weren't intended for that anyway, i know my traditional dynastar mythics are far superior on ice

post #9 of 12

An ice ski is nice if all you want to ski are groomers but around Tahoe when it hasn't snowed in a while the choice is between groomers and bumps, and often some corn. The trick is to find a ski that will handle all that reasonably well in a single day, which is why I got the Bones. The one thing the bones (at least new ones) don't do well is rocks, which is why I'm sticking with the recons for now.

post #10 of 12
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

An ice ski is nice if all you want to ski are groomers but around Tahoe when it hasn't snowed in a while the choice is between groomers and bumps, and often some corn. The trick is to find a ski that will handle all that reasonably well in a single day, which is why I got the Bones. The one thing the bones (at least new ones) don't do well is rocks, which is why I'm sticking with the recons for now.


Because Bones don't like rocks (as any other good ski), I stick to my old Atomic and Rental/Demo (my new Bonafides are still at home in plastic), but this week hopefully would change it.

P.S. last Sunday I haven't found much rocks on Chair 6 at Kirkwood (compare to early Jan conditions).

post #11 of 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldgoat View Post
 

The one thing the bones (at least new ones) don't do well is rocks, which is why I'm sticking with the recons for now.

Ha.  Mine have seen plenty of time on the rocks this season.  And go figure, they ding up just like any other skis.  Does that mean that they are my rock skis now?  Time to go shopping!

post #12 of 12

I confess I've had the bones out a couple of times--just couldn't resist, and have one pretty good gouge, but not a core shot, to show for it. The kind of gouge I would not usually fix but seeing as how they are new skis I went ahead and filled it. 

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