or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Tipping the inside ski to encourage steering
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tipping the inside ski to encourage steering - Page 9

post #241 of 264

....probably LeMaster?

post #242 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

....probably LeMaster?
yeah, should be, have that one - thanks
post #243 of 264

i think i have a good visual difference between shin pressure and no shin pressure, in a video i was just analyzing, at least at the beginning of the turn:

 

these two look prettu much the same except for the shin pressure. notice red pants (formerly green pants) is pulling his inside ski further back than blue jacket...

 

is this what we're talking about? i am not sure about the need to have shin pressure throughout the turn, for sure contact with the shin, but not neccessarily pressure - i thought weight should roll from the ball of the feet towards the middle of the foot at the end of the turn?

 

p.s. red pants here doesn't know about shin pressure yet - i will also take a closer look at his boots (they are stiffer than they should be) and may cut some plastic here and there.

post #244 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 


I only have this by word of mouth from Rob Sogard (PSIA demo team coach). We did have an interesting discussion on how ankle movements could occur without a change in pressure against the tongue of the boot where the pressure was being measured. The difference in pressure of the B teamers is small, but distinct when compared against a "rock steady" value for the A teamers. The difference in skiing performance is small, but enough to separate the A team from the B team. What I did not hear was "why" the consistent pressure is faster. My guess is that they are still working on that. This is the kind of news that leaks out when people are working together and there isn't enough work done for a formal news release because it is work in progress. But since so many folks believe that PSIA has nothing to do with racing technique I'm going to leave it at this: That's all I know right now.

 

 

curious was consistent necessarily more forward pressure? or just the same thought out the entire turn? watching Shiffrin ski she does let her ski squirt but is always in contact with her fronts of hte boots anyways at least in SL turns. 

 

but lastly are we not a organazation that trains all mountain skiers as well, or anyone for the matter? Id have really hard time believe that with the amount of for and aft leverage I do to make certain turns happen that the best skiers always maintain the same pressure on the fronts of the boots, let alone there is for time where there is none on the front of their boots. 

It wasn't more or less. It was consistent vs variable. It was consistent across multiple turns. And it's very important to note that the B teamers are excellent skiers. I did not hear any info about whether this data only applied to on course vs free skiing. This isn't gospel. It is data. And it's heresay data (there is bound to be some telephone tag distortion at this point). It should be interesting, but not conclusive. It's something we need to watch out for for further development. When I talked with Rob about this we walked through how some PSIA recommended movements could still be accomplished within a restriction of no change in forward pressure. The movements we walked through can result in a change of pressure but could also be done without a change in pressure. That took some thinking.

 

The comment that PSIA does not "train all mountain skiers well", is not relevant to this discussion. This is a different topic for another day.

post #245 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
As to the allegations from the D team that this is good, we don't know what their test was, what were they doing, what did they look like when they were doing it, what kind of ski situation and by the way, who determines who is the better skier in the D team and by what criteria, to make the A team or the B team?  There are a lot of open issues there.  I'm very skeptical and I don't like sending the message that we should all go ski around trying to make the pressure on the tongue constant or always on the balls of our feet, or moving the bindings around to non-standard locations in search of D team nirvana, or lifting the boot toes, etc..  all silly fads that some people swore by for a while but never saw lasting traction.

 

Sure, maybe you can go into ultra conservative golf cart mode and make some kind of turns without ever leaving the comfort of the tongue of your boot, but is that higher level skiing then the guy skiing dynamically and getting changes in pressure?  

 

 

Ok - this has gone far enough off the tracks. This is not PSIA research. It came from the US ski team. It is their A and B teams. You are jumping to way too many conclusions. Consistent pressure is not the same as no movement. This is not a PSIA allegation that anything is good. It's an US ski team observation of one difference between the A team skiers and the B team skiers. Period.

post #246 of 264

My apologies Rusty, for some reason I thought you were talking about the D team, probably because i recall the other situation about balls of the feet a few years ago, which was the D team.

 

In any case, in a racing context I am somewhat more believing of the assessment, though we still do really need to know more info to make any assumptions about how to ski, which you have pointed out already.

 

Thanks for the clarification.

post #247 of 264
Oops, LeMaster... I'll edit.
post #248 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 


I only have this by word of mouth from Rob Sogard (PSIA demo team coach). We did have an interesting discussion on how ankle movements could occur without a change in pressure against the tongue of the boot where the pressure was being measured. The difference in pressure of the B teamers is small, but distinct when compared against a "rock steady" value for the A teamers. The difference in skiing performance is small, but enough to separate the A team from the B team. What I did not hear was "why" the consistent pressure is faster. My guess is that they are still working on that. This is the kind of news that leaks out when people are working together and there isn't enough work done for a formal news release because it is work in progress. But since so many folks believe that PSIA has nothing to do with racing technique I'm going to leave it at this: That's all I know right now.

TR,

 

Forgive us, please, for thinking this was coming from PSIA. There is no explicit mention of the US race team in this quote. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

 

If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong - I'm old and decaying far more rapidly than I would like :o), Bob Barnes (PSIA-RM) clearly advocates varying the pressure on the tongue of the boot, but the focus is not necessarily minimum time through the gates. It is possible there are other metrics for "good skiing."

 

If it dumps at higher altitudes as predicted today and tonight, I may be forced to take tomorrow morning off for some research into the essential nature of powder, along with "moguls" created by large rocks and root balls. I shall not even attempt to keep a constant pressure on the tongues of my boots. I will, however, maintain contact at all times (rather like keeping my hands on the steering wheel), and I will mostly initiate by tipping the new inside ski down the hill, whether or not I unweight. Further, even if there is two feet of fresh snow, the amount and timing of the tipping of that inside ski as I go through the turn will make a major contribution to the radius of the turn.


Edited by jhcooley - 2/18/14 at 9:56am
post #249 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Some on the D Team were obsessed with forward pressure. So much so they moved their bindings back to make sure they were forward.:rolleyes

Hmmm. Lost me there. Maybe my sarcasm detector is not working correctly.

post #250 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

I remember a few years back one of the D teamers came to our resort and one of the things he was telling our trainers was that they did some kind of analysis and determined that the best guys on the D team ski around with most of the pressure on the balls of the their feet all the time.  Sounds like a similar story as what Rusty is saying, except Rusty says tongue of the boot, I heard balls of the feet.  One of our trainers then gave us a clinic a few days later and had us all trying to ski around constantly on the balls of our feet, which I still disagree with.

 

As well you should. How long ago was this, anyway?

 

Up until about 10 years ago, I taught at Winter Park and skied regularly with the SSD, who was a D team member at the time. It was always a humbling experience, to say the least, but I do not remember him ever advocating pressuring the balls of the feet.

 

IMHO, attempting to pressure the balls of your feet will tend to put you in the back seat.

post #251 of 264
2 years ago

In fairness, standing on the balls of the feet and pushing on the balls of the feet are two slightly different things. Pushing can most definitely result in plantar flexing yourself aft.

In the other hand, if you lean forward far enough while standing in your boots, you will end up standing on the balls of your feet, particularly if you have some limited dorsiflexion it will happen even sooner, just ask my left metatarcil.

However as easy as that sounds while standing there, doing this while skiing without actually pushing and plantar flexing at the same time is not easy, especially when you're extending that leg at the same time.

The reasoning that was given me two years ago for standing on the balls of our feet is that is closest to an athletic ready stance, as seen in other sports where you need to be in a position to move quickly, such as waiting for a tennis serve, etc. however that reasoning is flawed because those sports require a plantar flexing propulsion to spring into action, which is really opposite from skiing.
post #252 of 264

could be that getting into any stance is actually pre adjusting the nervous system for anticipated movement and has little to do with just one joint

post #253 of 264

Thanks for the added detail Rusty. Much appreciated. The concept of maintaining consistent ankle pressure against the front of the boot is very interesting as a cue. It's entirely consistent with, and in fact actually requires, range of motion in the ankles in the plantar/dorsiflexion plane as the forces of the turn wax and wane. I have learned something new and useful here -thanks again!

post #254 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post

extension of a leg through the non weight bearing phase of a turn will cause opening of the same side ribs and spine, flexion of non weight bearing leg will cause compression/closure of the same side ribs and spinal segments. just like any other dynamic movement, to engage one is to inhibit another, if a push requires a release a release requires a push.
not if you keep your hips mostly parallel with your shulders... i.e. using the hips and core properly... I do not think the spine or ribs should be compressed/extended at all

Now, the core muscles used to resist the turn while keeping the trunk upright, that's a different story.

Basically the effective angulation in my mind is mostly from the hips, not from the spine/ribs. That's something we use to get the beginners going in the right direction... "The pinch"

Now... Are we able to keep the hips mostly level with the shoulders? Perhaps not as much as we'd like so, yes. Some ribs compression/extension is occuring, but not as to be the main interesting thing going on there though...
post #255 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

i think i have a good visual difference between shin pressure and no shin pressure, in a video i was just analyzing, at least at the beginning of the turn:

 

these two look prettu much the same except for the shin pressure. notice red pants (formerly green pants) is pulling his inside ski further back than blue jacket...

 

is this what we're talking about? i am not sure about the need to have shin pressure throughout the turn, for sure contact with the shin, but not neccessarily pressure - i thought weight should roll from the ball of the feet towards the middle of the foot at the end of the turn?

 

p.s. red pants here doesn't know about shin pressure yet - i will also take a closer look at his boots (they are stiffer than they should be) and may cut some plastic here and there.

 

A bit OT - but is red boots a junior or an adult? Looks like a kid. Anyway.... I was talking to David Dodge of Dodge boots about boot angles in juniors and he was saying that if the angles are right, a boot that seems too stiff will start working again. Often times lifting the heel of the binding will achieve this effect (which I know sounds backwards). Bonus is binding shims are cheap and easily reversible - I experimented with my own daughter's skis last year and was able to get her better shin pressure by shimming.

post #256 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic View Post

A bit OT - but is red boots a junior or an adult? Looks like a kid. Anyway.... I was talking to David Dodge of Dodge boots about boot angles in juniors and he was saying that if the angles are right, a boot that seems too stiff will start working again. Often times lifting the heel of the binding will achieve this effect (which I know sounds backwards). Bonus is binding shims are cheap and easily reversible - I experimented with my own daughter's skis last year and was able to get her better shin pressure by shimming.
cool, thanks. They're both kids. Would a heel lift inside the boot be worth trying?
post #257 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


cool, thanks. They're both kids. Would a heel lift inside the boot be worth trying?

 

I'm not a boot fitter, but I doubt it. On the other hand, they are practically free, so can't hurt to try.

post #258 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post
 

 i will also take a closer look at his boots (they are stiffer than they should be) and may cut some plastic here and there.

 

Stiffer based on what measurement?

post #259 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Some on the D Team were obsessed with forward pressure. So much so they moved their bindings back to make sure they were forward.:rolleyes

Hmmm. Lost me there. Maybe my sarcasm detector is not working correctly.

Nothing tricky.

They moved the binding back to force themselves to always be more forward. Into the boot tongue, towards tip of ski.

post #260 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Nothing tricky.
They moved the binding back to force themselves to always be more forward. Into the boot tongue, towards tip of ski.
good to experiment with, not sure that is a good idea to leave them there for a long time. I used to play with my bindings on my Atomic skis with x-race bindings, which slide forward and back at tha flip of a switch. As I started skiing more forward, I settled on centred for SL and quarter inch forward for GS. That is where i feel the entire ski. Also, each ski feels different, so slight differences in stance are normal. I should know, i have 3 pairs of each wink.gif, with different flex patterns etc.
post #261 of 264

   On a related note to the OP, all last week and weekend our mountain got pummeled with snow. One of "my" instructors who is a L2 trying for L3 (she is a very quick study, smart, and quite athletic) this year wanted to work on her off-piste skiing so we went over to our steepest, gnarliest, bump runs. I skied down first so I could watch from below and within her first 2 turns I immediately observed a sequential movement--BTE then LTE which is what I expected as conditions were tough. After we got down I took her to a more moderately pitched, groomed blue with only a few inches of fresh on it and reinforced flexing and tipping LTE first (which we have worked on before on piste). I told her to try to be sequential with this movement (first LTE, then BTE follows) and explained to her that this was so that hopefully at the least it would be simultaneous. We also worked on patience in the "junk" as she had been forcing the issue on ever increasingly steep and difficult runs throughout the day...

 

  Point is, after maybe 2 or 3 runs she "got it' and skied the pow and crud great the rest of the day. We took the same run for our last as we did for our first (the gnarly one with big bumps) and voila, she nailed it (well, skied it quite well). This is a great baseline movement pattern for many different scenarios, as ""my" instructors are beginning to find out. :)

 

    zenny

post #262 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhcooley View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 


I only have this by word of mouth from Rob Sogard (PSIA demo team coach). We did have an interesting discussion on how ankle movements could occur without a change in pressure against the tongue of the boot where the pressure was being measured. The difference in pressure of the B teamers is small, but distinct when compared against a "rock steady" value for the A teamers. The difference in skiing performance is small, but enough to separate the A team from the B team. What I did not hear was "why" the consistent pressure is faster. My guess is that they are still working on that. This is the kind of news that leaks out when people are working together and there isn't enough work done for a formal news release because it is work in progress. But since so many folks believe that PSIA has nothing to do with racing technique I'm going to leave it at this: That's all I know right now.

TR,

 

Forgive us, please, for thinking this was coming from PSIA. There is no explicit mention of the US race team in this quote. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

With 9 pages of thread you couldn't keep track of 18 different side topics?  I mentioned "USA" in the first reference to the A and B teams. My bad for not repeating myself over and over again.  And over again. The misunderstanding isn't a big deal, but this is why the D teamers (that's PSIA Demonstration Team members) don't participate here.  So you get people like me to beat up instead.

post #263 of 264
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

So you get people like me to beat up instead.

I did not mean to beat up on you.

 

I will shut up now.

post #264 of 264

I grew up with the old school idea of skiing with ALL of your weight on the downhill ski.  This was driven even deeper with racing.  Recently (within the last two years) I have been learning to ski on both feet.  I found that in longer radius turns, I would let my inside ski just hang and ride along on the flat while all the work was done with my outside ski.  In short radius turns, I typically unweight the inside ski completely often lifting it off the snow.  

 

When I tried opening up my inside knee, I fond that my longer radius turns became cleaner since my inside ski wasn't just hanging.  With my short radius turns, I found that I could comfortably cut really tight carved turns and feel both skis steering the turn around.  I honestly don't know if I am able to cut tighter radiused turns or not, but they feel much cleaner now that my inside ski is engaged rather than just being held out of the way.  

 

The two footed technique for short radius turns has also worked very well for me in the moguls.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › Tipping the inside ski to encourage steering