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progression for strong "outer" half

post #1 of 17
Thread Starter 

I know the importance of a strong inner half.  I have an advanced skier who twists his hips to the outside of the turn overcountering at the apex.  At first I though his tip lead would be fixed by pulling the inside ski back.  While it did help a little it was still occurring.  I notices his hips facing away from the turn at the apex.  Thoughts on helping to square up the hips?

post #2 of 17

My guess is that there is probably more going on here. The risk of a misdiagnosis with the information presented is high. Given that caveat, you could work with alignment aids to check the position of the hips and shoulders. For one example, there's the old trick of hooking your poles together around your waist (each pole basket is hooked into the strap of the other pole with the body in the middle) and keeping the poles pointed to the sides of the trails. Another example is ditching the poles and using bamboo over the shoulders and keeping the boo level with the snow surface at all times. My bet would be that this skier is turning their feet and their upper body as key components of turning motions instead of tipping the feet and letting the legs turn underneath the upper body.

post #3 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Ferry View Post
 

I notices his hips facing away from the turn at the apex.  Thoughts on helping to square up the hips?

 

What radius of turn on you working on?

post #4 of 17
Thread Starter 

medium say 14 to 18 meters

post #5 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

My guess is that there is probably more going on here. The risk of a misdiagnosis with the information presented is high. Given that caveat, you could work with alignment aids to check the position of the hips and shoulders. For one example, there's the old trick of hooking your poles together around your waist (each pole basket is hooked into the strap of the other pole with the body in the middle) and keeping the poles pointed to the sides of the trails. Another example is ditching the poles and using bamboo over the shoulders and keeping the boo level with the snow surface at all times. My bet would be that this skier is turning their feet and their upper body as key components of turning motions instead of tipping the feet and letting the legs turn underneath the upper body.

 

Agree with TheRusty: some diagnostic tools will help you understand the root cause. 

 

Without staking money on the issue, the picture in my head is the skier has pushed their hip into the turn, rather than turning with the lower joints. But heck, there are lots of possibilities here.

 

Also, regarding trying to correct tip lead, I'd say it's just a symptom, not the issue and wouldn't worry about it. 

 

Best of luck!

post #6 of 17
So what advantage does he gain by counter rotating at that point?
post #7 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So what advantage does he gain by counter rotating at that point?

 

Without a few pictures or video who the heck knows what he is doing?

post #8 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

So what advantage does he gain by counter rotating at that point?

. Powers his pivot. Applied rotary with a gross body movement.  Seems pretty common ,isn't it ?  Oh to be the next coming of Stein on shaped skis

post #9 of 17
Thread Starter 

That's it...Stein Erikson!  The inside hip is still forward and he is not "in the back seat" so much, as again, the hips are not perpendicular to the fall line at the apex.  The inside ski does skid some when attempting a carved turn.  Things I have thought of trying...Keeping the outside hand forward? Traverse on the uphill ski of what will be the new outside ski of the turn and complete the turn on that ski keeping the inside ski off the hill?

post #10 of 17
Before shifting to a plug and play solution, maybe we need to explore the mechanical advantages of the current movement pattern that has convinced him to rely on it so much. Is it possible that fore aft balance and inside half lead to maintain that "not in the back seat" stance is the main reason for the counter rotary in the pelvis?( Think javelin turns). Could he be arresting some angular momentum he created earlier in that turn, or maybe simultaneously countering the strong leg steering move at the apex? Is it really fair to say no counter should occur at the apex? Since the highest edge angles and most difference in leg length should occur there maybe having some counter is not only probable but actually a very good result of those higher edge angles.

Since there is no information given about what is occurring in the initiation phase and the finishing phase, it's hard to say much about why the strong upper body counter rotary movement is being used. Nor has Scott shared what the skis are doing as he twists the hips counter to the turn. So Scott can you elaborate on what is occurring in all phases of the turn and what the skis are doing in response to what the body is doing in all three of those phases? I know that's a lot to ask without actually seeing the student perform but any impressions and memories you can share would help us help you.
post #11 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
 

. Powers his pivot.

 

Counter rotation at the apex of an 18M radius turn powers a pivot?

post #12 of 17

Only if the skis actually pivot. It could be a bit retro like Arlberg counter. which is why I asked about what the skis are doing. Scott ya listening?

post #13 of 17

Good point. Scott, what is the radius of the skis your student is using?

 

post #14 of 17

how much past perpindicular is he at the apex?  A little counter by then is not bad.  Let's see video, there is not enough info here.

post #15 of 17

Seems to be a common theme Scott. Insufficient data to draw any meaningful conclusions leaves us with theoretical possibilities but little else.

post #16 of 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Insufficient data to draw any meaningful conclusions leaves us with theoretical possibilities but little else.

 

Wait! Isn't pontificating on theoretical possibilities an internet past time? :D

post #17 of 17
That is one way to approach this. Have at it...
...I actually want Scott to dig deeper. When he does the answer will become obvious.
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