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Superiority: Camber underfoot vs flat (Soul7 vs. Cochise))

Poll Results: Cochise (flat) or Camber (maybe Soul 7 or Blizzard Scout)

 
  • 14% (2)
    Cochise
  • 85% (12)
    Cambered
14 Total Votes  
post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 

Hello skiers!

 

I want to know your personal experiences with a flat (or fully rockered) underfooot ski with a ski compared to camber. Specifically I am very attracted to the Blizzard Cochise (177 or 185) but the flat profile may turn me away. Im putting my first pair of AT bindings on these skiis. This season i'll be mostly skinning the resort and sidecountry.  Considering the cochise (flat) versus the Rossi Soul7 or Blizzard Scout. 

 

A brief profile:

 

-25 yr old male. 5'8'', 160#. Moderate shape. 

-Live in Crested Butte, CO and ski everyday (13 out of 14). Skied Copper last season (twas my first year in CO) 

-Relatively aggressive. "When in doubt - point it out"

-Generally I prefer a lighter, no metal ski. This is an additional concern of the Cochise. 

 

Priorities in ski performance:

 

1) Performance on bad days/crust (crusty drifts, hard moguls, patches of ice, variable snow)

2) Stability/reaction at speed (through crust, ice, or well-groomed)

 

3) Quick ski reactions (eg. lighter ski) in trees/moguls and specifically when there hasnt been snow in a week++

4) Pop! This is my main concern of the cochise. Will I notice a significant loss of altitude with a flat ski?! I love popping and getting air. Sometimes it's crucial. I like a playful ski but as you can tell by my previous priorities I also want a crud ski. Yes, contradictions! 

5) Rebound. Similar concerns as "Pop!". When I ski I like to bounce out of my turns, especially on steeps. I imagine it's the camber that helps me rebound out of my turns... so worried about Cochise. 

 

 

The Cochise (flat) seems to favor my main priorities which is crud/offdays. 

 

However, I am thinking camber and lighter ski (Soul 7?) would improve my other considerations (pop and rebound). 

 

 

For those who have skied a flat ski (preferably the Cochise): Can the flat ski still bounce out of turns and gain altitude with popping? Is the Cochise agile enough for me to go with a crud buster?

 

Looking forward to your thoughts!!

 

 

post #2 of 18

I have the Bushwackers and Bonafides, but in the 107-108 range, I have Gotamas. I can make the Gotamas pop. Extrapolating the feel of the Bonafides, I suspect the Gotamas got more pop than the Cochises, but that's pure conjecture. I know that probably doesn't help, but it increases my post count by one :)

post #3 of 18

ummm, Can I vote for camber but not vote for any of your ski selections for the given criteria? :eek 

 

if yes, then I vote for a Kastle FX94. The more I ski it, the more I find it excels in everyone of the above criteria.   For now new snow, why would you want a 100+ ski? Thats not going to help your cause.  

post #4 of 18

Having owned both, the Soul 7 hits more of your needs, but it ain't no crudbuster.  There is probably a better ski out there that will meet your needs. 

post #5 of 18
Had the Cochise - it was a crud wrecker. Ultimately I sold them as I also had a pair of Nordica Enforcers - which have camber. They are a good crud ski as well, provide a ton of energy/pop in turns but not as "pivoty" as the Cochises. Perhaps the FX 94 is something to look at - I intend to demo a pair but don't know what they would improve over the Enforcers.

I liked the Cochise a lot ....I like the Enforcers a tad better for my needs.

Do you have a wider 110+ ski? If not maybe El Capo? (Have not skied it)
post #6 of 18
El capo has metal and is under 110. You are referring to Patron/Helldorado twins. The new Cochise is supposed to have some camber but not a lot. Of course lightness of the skis and crud performance are a direct trade off. So you need to compromise. Cochise is definitely not a playful ski, it's pivots, but still super stable. I think the Scout should be more playful, but I have not been on it. I'd take a look at the Vagabond ( the ElCapo with no metal). It's a Nordica, so not a smeary pivoty ski by any means, but I remember it being light but super stable. And the tail has good energy.
post #7 of 18
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the replies.

 

My only other ski is a 75 underfoot park ski. So this new purchase will be my everyday charger but also needs to have enough float for deeper days. I think 105-110 gives me the everyday performance I want while also floating much better than a 98 underfoot. 

 

I am choosing between Rossi and Blizzard brands because I have a prodeal. It includes other brands, but unfortunately not Kastle. 

 

Nordica, Dynastar, Elan, Fischer, and Head are other options. 

 

Anyone have experience with the Fischer Big Stick 110?

post #8 of 18
Soul7 - super playful, quick turning, piece of cake in moguls or trees, adequate groomer performance but nothing special,very fun ski at low to moderate speeds. You give up stability, crud busting ability, and real carving performance, not a ton of pop but decent. Bigger guys don't love this ski due to its lack of weight/stability. Lighter guys seem to really like it.

Cochise - powerful crud buster, long radius turning, wants to go straight down the fall line, very little "pop" - and I'm a big guy that can really bend a ski - decent flotation for smaller guys, poor pow ski for bigger guys. Can rail GS turns on piste, but you have to keep the edges sharp. The more you detune them, the more playful, "fun" they are but you loose edge grip if you're too aggressive. Very stiff tail that will punish you if you get back and reward you if you keep it going fast and stay forward. Not fun in bumps on the longer lengths. Better in the shorter lengths.

I would think a better option for you based on your described preferences (at least I'd advise demoing one if you can) is the blizzard peacemaker. A very good blend of the two. Incredible pop, quite damp (not Cochise damp), super playful and jibby without giving up carving ability, can do quick turns or GS turns without any trouble. Great in bumps. Awesome all Mtn ski. Not for deep deep pow but great in anything up to 12-18 inches.

For reference I own an elan 88 xti in 186 for groomers and 186 volkl one pow ski and 186 rossignol sickle and 186 peacemaker. I skied deer valley yesterday on the elans and today on a 186 peacemaker - the bite of the peacemaker is as good as the elan and is as snappy in turns. I also rode the soul 7 yesterday. Fun, fun in bumps. I could never buy this ski simply due to lower speed limit and low dampness for me. May be different for you. I recently sold my Cochise for the peacemaker - much better all around ski for me, much more playful and much quicker turning on groomers which I like. Great grip on ice.

For reference, I've spent a lot of time recently on the brahma, bonafide, Cochise, all the rossignols, kastle mx88, fx94, head carvers, Nordica patron, helldorado, dynastar Chams

Best all around all Mtn skis of the bunch for me (if I were pairing with a narrow carver) is the peacemaker and the sickle.
post #9 of 18

Personally, I feel if your looking for an everyday charger anything above a 100mm waist doesn't give you the performance you need. However, if you want something in that range I would be willing to sell some brand new Black Diamonds Zealots (that meet your criteria for crudbusting and powder performance and stability) for $500 plus shipping. Just another option for you....

post #10 of 18
Quote:

 

Priorities in ski performance:

 

1) Performance on bad days/crust (crusty drifts, hard moguls, patches of ice, variable snow)

2) Stability/reaction at speed (through crust, ice, or well-groomed)

 

3) Quick ski reactions (eg. lighter ski) in trees/moguls and specifically when there hasnt been snow in a week++

4) Pop! This is my main concern of the cochise. Will I notice a significant loss of altitude with a flat ski?! I love popping and getting air. Sometimes it's crucial. I like a playful ski but as you can tell by my previous priorities I also want a crud ski. Yes, contradictions! 

5) Rebound. Similar concerns as "Pop!". When I ski I like to bounce out of my turns, especially on steeps. I imagine it's the camber that helps me rebound out of my turns... so worried about Cochise. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The OPs concerns regarding the Cochise are pretty accurate. 100+ days on mine and love them for sure but no pop from turn to turn. You just roll the ski on edge and it engages tip to tail and around you go. Smooth and effortless but not playful and poppy-  just motors through anything at any speed you want even slowly. They also work very well in tight spaces like bumps, trees, chutes if you remember to pivot the ski and not try to jump turn.Both smooth and quick but not bouncy nor playful. Think big Mercedes versus Porsche Boxter. While they aren't super heavy they aren't light either so touring is ? Like it said in the Blister Gear review they are not instant easy to ski but the more you ski them the better you will enjoy them. BTW 177 is you size not 185 as they do ski their length. If that is your list of requirements in order of priority with stability and crud at the top of the list then Cochise will do that for you plus they will also give you quick response but probably not right away as you will need to learn to pivot turn in the tight spots. After that you're Golden.

post #11 of 18

Have owned Cochise's, previous S's, have not skied the Soul 7. Conclusion: Camber rules. Period. If you can wait until next year, the Cochise will have camber, apparently. If you can't, plenty of alternatives. But at your size, and given that you'd prefer a non-metal ski, bewildered why you've even thinking about the Cochise. Which has 2.5 sheets of metal, y'know, and if quite stiff. I would go for a flexier and lighter ski no matter what; getting a shorter version of something beefy if you're lighter is not a very good solution for soft snow skis. Shame you're limited to two brands, but I'd go for the Scout, or the Peacemaker, or the Soul 7 in that order given your priorities. In all cases, think about handling crud or bad snow on an edge, rather than blasting it flat. 

post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by toomuchfun View Post

Thanks for the replies.

My only other ski is a 75 underfoot park ski. So this new purchase will be my everyday charger but also needs to have enough float for deeper days. I think 105-110 gives me the everyday performance I want while also floating much better than a 98 underfoot. 

Anyone have experience with the Fischer Big Stick 110?

Yes. Great ski in light snow but as a lighter skier I got bounced around a bit in heavy cut up crud.

I bought the Head Rev 105 and feel it's an amazingly versatile all mountain ski. I was skiing on hardpack today, I grabbed the 105's by accident instead of my Rev 85's. Was pleased with the edge grip, usually the 105's are my soft snow and powder ski while the 85's are my frontside/teaching/bump ski. Both handle mixed conditions nicely. The 105 has traditional camber, but also has a huge tip (144 wide) so they'll float in the deep snow but also with a lot of side cut so the turning radius is like 15-16 meters. No metal so they are light, but still capable of crushing it in the crud. Probably not the charger a Cochise would be, but may be a good choice for you.
post #13 of 18
Thread Starter 

Lots of great thoughts so far!

 

I've decided I probably don't need the Cochise. I was/am interested in it because of it's versatility and especially capabilities on bad/harder snow. But I think I'll be picking up a skinnier (mid 80s) ski this summer; I can survive a few more months. That said, I am looking for a livelier, quick ski. 

 

On Skeebum's (among others) reference I researched the Blizzard Peacemaker. This might be the closest to what I'm looking for. I hope to find a demo in town but so far I'm coming up empty. 
 

Has anyone skied the Peacemaker? Does the tail hook much while "slarving"? How damp? 

post #14 of 18

Just back from Utah - went to heli and cat ski -PC cat was great but the Heli trip was scrubbed for lack of snow so the trip turned to a ski demo. I REALLY wanted to like the Cochise but after skiing in the 185 and 177s? they just didn't do it here. I ride the Bones daily but just couldn't see what all the fuss is about with the Cochise - it was east like conditions however. The wife - level III psia and some, loved the Dakoda - she skis the Somba daily. She demoed the soul 7 and was not jazzed. We both spent some time on the EL Capo and I actually brought a pair home. The 177s on the rack sized up the same as 180s in the blizzard. Spent time trying to find reviews, very few. Even the guys at the shop didn't have a feel for them or even the correct info on them. I wouldn't describe them as having POP but very responsive in bumps and trees. I've been real lucky with reviews and recommendations before but the demo experience is a must from here out for me.

post #15 of 18
"Does the tail hook much while slarving?" - if you mean - is the tail grabby and hooky in an irritating and unpredictable way while slarving, skidding, or putting on the brakes ? Absolutely not! It is very smooth. If you ever skied an s7 or jj or DPS wailer - those are hooky while slarving. The peacemaker is very smooth - as smooth as the cochise if you tune it right. The tail will only hang up on deep hard troughs at the longer length. The advantage of this ski comes when you put it on edge and want to rail groomers - it's a surprisingly potent and poppy carver!

How damp? Not Cochise damp or katana... Not soul7 flappy or dps wailer... Maybe like a all wood gotama? Or a Rossi sickle ? It skis like a middleweight all wood ski. Very solid. To clarify - I define damp as the ability to smooth out rough terrain and absorb bumpy runs. Not necessarily meaning "not poppy". The peacemaker is very poppy and moderately and pleasantly damp in bumped up terrain. Hope that helps. Wish you could find a demo - especially where you might be between lengths. Id suggest the 179 for you.
post #16 of 18

I don't think the ski you're after exists, since i've spent 2 years looking for it lol. Closest i've found are Gotama, Sickle, Quest 105, TST. I still found something lacking in all of them though and opted to buy a playful ski and a charging ski.

 

Definitely not Soul 7, fails your first 2 wishes. Lot's of people like Blizzards, I don't but still worth a look.

post #17 of 18
Thread Starter 

ZOMGHELICOPTERS IT'S SNOWING IN CB. Secondly, I'm going to buy the Blizzard Peacemaker. 

 

As some have noted - my desires are contradictory/exclusive. I know I wont find a damp, lively, low swing-weight ski that performs great everywhere. However, from what I have read the Peacemaker is a highly playful and versatile ski which isn't overly heavy or damp. 

 

Unfortunately I have found very little information on the otherwise endless interwebz. The one shop in CB that rents Blizzards does not have the Peacemaker (trying one last shop tomorrow). I barely know what the rocker/camber profile really looks like.

 

Which brings me to my question: 179cm or 186cm?

 

Skiing everyday is making me a more confident and aggressive almost daily. So I feel that I will grow out of the 179 if it is appropriate right now. I've heard the Peacemaker has more of a "speed limit" compared to other 104ish skiis, so that favors the 186 as I do like to carve long turns when on groomers or through choppy sections at the bottom of steeps. For the 179, I do like a low swing-weight and maneuverability in bumps/trees. I have skied S7 188s and they felt comfortable in trees. Once again I dont know the Peacemaker rocker profile and the S7's is quite distinct. 

 

Mounting point? I do like to ski switch and am doing it more and more often. Eventually skiing switch quite a bit. However I've heard the tail gets snaggy at the center mount. I'm thinking -1.5. Mounting Dukes. 

post #18 of 18
The 186 peacemaker will ski longer than the 188 s7 (in the tail). I've owned both. The tail on the peacemaker finishes the turn much stronger than the s7 and a ton more than the soul7. My 186 are mounted at -2. Mounted center would give you too much tail. The shop I bought them from has indicated all parties seem most happy at -2. Thats what i did. I shift to -1.5 if I end up on groomers a lot. I use marker schizos so I can play with the boot point. If you value maneuverability - buy the 179. If you value charging - buy the 186. They DONT ski short... Again the 186 will carve as hard as my 186 elan 88xti. If you love bumps, get the 179. Again tuning can alter a skis behavior. For reference I'm 6'1" 220 and the 186 is plenty of ski. (Where the 188 super7 or 188 soul7 ski much shorter for me). Again - I wish you could demo, cause I'd want you to be thrilled with your purchase. My gut says buy the 179. Best....
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