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What to do without video? - Page 4

post #91 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post

....

Everyone is different, go sit in the lodge and watch for 10 minutes, watch ski racing, we all have preferences, neurological, structural, cultural, that most certainly do effect what is or will be efficient movement, even within ourselves, the right side and left side move differently, which one is more correct?  A person who continues to put themselves in a position to move, sense their movement, put themselves in an environment that allows them to explore their variable movement capacity with control will develop essential skills, and they will look different from another who does the exact same thing, even two people under the same coach/instructor, so who is better, or more normal, or more advanced? One has to be right and one wrong, right?

....

I see those differences among skiers every day I ski, too, Chad.  I know most of those people out there are having fun.  I don't think "intermediates," or even scared-silly "beginners," are necessarily having less fun than "advanced" or "expert" skiers.  

 

Here is an incomplete list of movements that cause some of those differences we are both seeing, and the things instructors would help skiers replace them with, should one of those skiers take a lesson.  I hope you wouldn't say that replacing these movements with something "more effective" would take away something good.

 

1.  Dropping the inside hand/shoulder down and back after a pole plant (as in walking)  -- replace with keeping the inside hand/shoulder forward and up during the whole turn (helps to eliminate banking, which directs too little "weight" to the outside ski and causes it to let go and slide out).

 

2.  Rotating the outside arm/shoulder forward and across the chest through the turn -- replace with keeping that outside arm/shoulder back and low while moving the legs independently from the torso (very important to do because maintaining a more stable torso above legs that are turning more helps maintain balance and stability while the skier is in motion; that upper body rotation can really throw a skier out of balance.)

 

3.  Leaning back or sitting/squatting with shins sticking straight up out of the boots, which allows the feet to precede the hips down the hill (aka, the skier is aft) -- replace with bending ankles forward inside those stiff boots and moving hips up and forward so that the skier's weight and the forces of the turn are directed towards the front of the skis (helps the skis to turn when the skier tells them to rather than resist turning and/or run straight.)

 

4.  Quickly pivoting the skis around at the start of a turn, while edging and pushing on the outside ski to get a grip -- replace with a slower turn entry characterized by releasing the downhill ski first and having it lead the turn (helps the skis grip the snow through the whole turn instead of skidding out.)  

 

When skiers replace these "ineffective movement patterns" with more effective ones, they stop looking so creatively different from each other when viewed out the lodge windows.  The purpose is to help those skiers be able to ski more terrain and more conditions without putting themselves and others in danger.  Maybe that counts for something.


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/1/14 at 5:08pm
post #92 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

Inflicted! that is strong language HDN, I like the construct you guys have created for yourselves, now all you need is normal people who want to become advanced, be damned the poor souls who aren't holders of those criteria I suppose.  I would love to hear a definition of your perception of what makes a normal person or constitutes being advanced. Is learning to ski not a developmental process?  I am curious what the answers are to you.

 

Simple, not easy is the new connotation now.  Rolling is simple but not easy to develop, using both eyes to stare at something is simple but not easy, standing is simple but not easy breathing is simple but not easy either and yet most people are very good at those things early in life, oddly enough we usually perform them more poorly as time goes on and yet remain highly functional beings, maybe even advanced at some things. The stress on essential movement patterns is all great and good but looking at any developmental motor control process shows that each of us acquires them  through a variety of exploratory movements, ones based on pre existing patterns, so how far back are you looking with each student for what is essential?  Certainly if they haven't acquired the essential base line movements off skis they would be relegated to eternal mediocrity on skis.  How often should they look back on the essential movements since physiology shows us the patterns decay as they evolve into new patterns?  It certainly sounds scary though for a person who is self learning a recreational activity to read they are doomed without the essentials, nothing like a little fear mixed with judgement to really make people more insecure and less likely to rely on themselves.

 

Everyone is different, go sit in the lodge and watch for 10 minutes, watch ski racing, we all have preferences, neurological, structural, cultural, that most certainly do effect what is or will be efficient movement, even within ourselves, the right side and left side move differently, which one is more correct?  A person who continues to put themselves in a position to move, sense their movement, put themselves in an environment that allows them to explore their variable movement capacity with control will develop essential skills, and they will look different from another who does the exact same thing, even two people under the same coach/instructor, so who is better, or more normal, or more advanced? One has to be right and one wrong, right?

 

skiatansky, somehow you have convinced yourself you are moving without feeling? That takes some pretty serious neurological dysfunction, you certainly are doing amazingly well if that is the case. 

 

The concept of "normal" or, more exactly, "normal range" is central to all of biomedical science. If you don't know what it means, take a course in biostatistics or read about it online. At the very least refrain from misleading pronouncements on neurophysiology until you have got this under your belt. Abnormal conditions (i.e., those which fall outside the range of normal), which may be congenital or acquired, obviously may affect a person's capacity to learn to ski - cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, profound mental retardation, paraplegia, etc.

 

Your list of ontological milestones is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Are you really unable to accept the notion of being "mediocre" without attaching a value judgment to it? It is trivial to observe that expert skiers ski differently from mediocre ones and that the reason is that they have mastered and can execute movement patterns that the mediocre skier has not and cannot. It is not a character flaw to be a mediocre skier.

post #93 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:

Originally Posted by chad View Post

 

could there be intrinsic value in skiing just for the sake of skiing? 

Most certainly for recreational skiers. What else is there? We are not going for Olympic medals, WC podium or even elite racing; no fame or fortune in skiing for us, not even an income. It is the joy of skiing itself that make us whip out our wallet and spend the time on the mountain, at least for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

 

When skiers replace these "ineffective movement patterns" with more effective ones, they stop looking so creatively different from each other when viewed out the lodge windows.  The purpose is to help those skiers be able to ski more terrain and more conditions without putting themselves and others in danger.  Maybe that counts for something.

Sure, anything to help me making more effective movements is valuable to me. The better I ski, the more fun I have, or more precisely, the easier it is to get a thrill, just like when I first started. As a rank beginner, moving down the hill, making turns at the ultra high speed of about 5 mph was thrilling. Then I got used to it and had to go find the andrenaline rush on steeper slopes or off piste terrains. That was the low point of my skiing life. The local SoCal resorts became boring. I whined when it was sunny, warm with groomed blue runs, and only those, open. I stayed near the edge of the trail, skied fast, got flagged down by patrol, and felt unchallenged: I was a veritable expert or at least advanced skier in my mind. Then I started paying attention to some skiers who seemed to ski much more "dynamically" at much lower speeds than I do on these mellow runs. Realizing that it can be thrilling to ski on beginners terrain if I have some real skills was the turning point. The COM of fun has moved up ever since even though I am forced to demote myself to the lowly rank of intermediates.

 

The questions are (1) what those skills or movements are, and (2) how to acquire them given the constraints I stated at the beginning of the thread. Various aspects of (1) have been discussed on Epic over the years at length. Regarding (2), there are two positions. One is that I am doomed to everlasting mediocrity, ie no more significant progress, without a coach and without video feedback. The other position is that I can try to develop a feel for the movement, to be aware of the body, the sensations and use them as feedback while skiing to improve. Since I haven't been skiing with much attention to "feel", I couldn't or didn't try to sense the outcome of a movement while skiing, I think I can make good progress with the second approach together with some specific understanding of certain technical aspects. A couple days on the slope should show whether I can make "feel" work for me. And I will try to have video to confirm and contribute to this discussion. If I have to bet now, I will put my money on "feel".

post #94 of 99

Having just had a chance to look at the videos you posted ChuckT, I'd like to say that you have developed very good basic movements. You are far more accomplished than the average (henceforth known as "mediocre") skier. At 10 days a year, your skiing is impressive.

 

I do not instruct recreational skiers. I'm irascible and have a disagreeable personality; moreover I have no teacher pins! To derive more performance from your skis, you need to stay with the outside ski longer through the end of the turn, allowing both skis to carve up underneath your body. This will allow your old inside (new outside leg) to extend earlier at the top of the new turn and, through aggressive flexing and tipping of the old outside (new inside) leg and foot respectively, build higher edge angles earlier in the turn. Higher edge angle and earlier new outside ski pressure translates to much more zip - be ready for it.

 

A decent race coach could dramatically change your skiing in half a day given the baseline you have built. It's worth thinking about.

post #95 of 99
Thread Starter 

Thank you, HDN for the kind words and the tips for more performance. Zenny also PMed me similar suggestions. (I hope he, @zentune, doesn't mind me spilling the beans here)

 

The thought of getting a coach for a day or a few hours is always on my mind. I see a large number of racers at Mammoth training on closed courses, but I would feel sheepish telling them or the ski school that I want a coach or instructor to teach me to ski like a racer. I would appreciate a specific recommendation for a race coach/instructor at Mammoth very much.

post #96 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
 

Thank you, HDN for the kind words and the tips for more performance. Zenny also PMed me similar suggestions. (I hope he, @zentune, doesn't mind me spilling the beans here)

 

The thought of getting a coach for a day or a few hours is always on my mind. I see a large number of racers at Mammoth training on closed courses, but I would feel sheepish telling them or the ski school that I want a coach or instructor to teach me to ski like a racer. I would appreciate a specific recommendation for a race coach/instructor at Mammoth very much.

 

 

  Whoa...creepy! That's the first time I've been "summoned" on epic with the new @ thing. :eek

 

   Don't hesitate to do that @ChuckT :D. I don't personally know any of the gang at Mammoth, but I've found that once the initial introductions wear off, most coaches and programs a very happy to have new skiers interested. Most coach because ultimately they enjoy it, and a Masters race program is right up your alley...trust me!!! 

 

  @HardDaysNight , I especially enjoyed your candor in regards to your "disagreeable personality". I'm thinking you're probably a great coach! Sometimes students need a little tough love :cool

 

   P.s. Chuck, no worries about spilling the beans--I'll eat them off the floor :)

 

   zenny

post #97 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

 

The concept of "normal" or, more exactly, "normal range" is central to all of biomedical science. If you don't know what it means, take a course in biostatistics or read about it online. At the very least refrain from misleading pronouncements on neurophysiology until you have got this under your belt. Abnormal conditions (i.e., those which fall outside the range of normal), which may be congenital or acquired, obviously may affect a person's capacity to learn to ski - cerebral palsy, muscular dystrophy, profound mental retardation, paraplegia, etc.

 

Your list of ontological milestones is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

Are you really unable to accept the notion of being "mediocre" without attaching a value judgment to it? It is trivial to observe that expert skiers ski differently from mediocre ones and that the reason is that they have mastered and can execute movement patterns that the mediocre skier has not and cannot. It is not a character flaw to be a mediocre skier.

 

 

Maybe I am using the wrong language or reading incorrectly, let me try to be more clear.

 

1. I have been under the impression this thread was trying to address what a person would do without a coach or video.  This type of learning/self adjustment skill is exactly the process we undergo working towards and crossing  those irrelevant ontological milestones, so the how we do that may have some insight into what a person can do to enhance their learning curve, maybe I should add again, this is without a coach or video.

 

2. the process of motor development is based on the persons ability to refine a myriad of movements, the ability to move the way you want to achieve a goal relies not only on activating but also inhibiting muscles, this is what all "normal range" people do.  the process is as relevant to an adult learning a new motor control skill as it is to an infant learning how to move. there is nothing misleading about that fact, if there is I would appreciate to read why you think it is.

 

3. how does the expert skier acquire those movement patterns, they certainly were not born with the skill set, they too were developing mediocre movers at some point in their lives. so again, you state a person of ordinary even less than ordinary movement control can not get there, I struggle to see how that is a person's destiny if they reside in the normal spectrum since it is a fundamental property of our biology.

 

4. my attachment of judgement is not related to an adjective, it is with regard to your impression that using a myriad of movements can not result is a person becoming something other than that adjective when it is precisely what "normal" people do.  How could it be a character flaw when it is an inherent part of our being, we are not born experts or advanced, we are lucky to be ordinary and mediocre, the people less fortunate to be extraordinary often have significant struggles while the other end of the spectrum find movement naturally efficient and easy. fortunately we can redefine the adjectives that describe us as we continue to be interested in our own development..

 

LF, I wouldn't say that, of course the instruction you give should help them attain their goals more quickly, that is worth everything IMO. I am merely suggesting that a mature person can use their cognition to apply the process we use through development to make those adjustments to their patterns, when they don't have access to coaching/instructing/video,  I thought I had been consistent with the separation of a self instructive process vs an external instructive process.  

post #98 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

 

 

Maybe I am using the wrong language or reading incorrectly, let me try to be more clear.

 

1. I have been under the impression this thread was trying to address what a person would do without a coach or video.  This type of learning/self adjustment skill is exactly the process we undergo working towards and crossing  those irrelevant ontological milestones, so the how we do that may have some insight into what a person can do to enhance their learning curve, maybe I should add again, this is without a coach or video.

 

2. the process of motor development is based on the persons ability to refine a myriad of movements,...

 

3. how does the expert skier acquire those movement patterns, they certainly were not born with the skill set,...

 

.... I am merely suggesting that a mature person can use their cognition to apply the process we use through development to make those adjustments to their patterns, when they don't have access to coaching/instructing/video,  I thought I had been consistent with the separation of a self instructive process vs an external instructive process.  

 

Physically, because we come primed to learn how to move, we have pretty good feedback mechanisms to do this.  Most people reading this didn't have a coach, or video, to learn to do a cartwheel or somersault, or other movements that we can do that are still a lot different from walking.  Learning to ride a bike, the list goes on.  Again, just like several players on the PGA effectively are completely self-taught, even at the highest level of play.

 

Lack of video and lack of a formal "instructor" doesn't mean that you can't benefit from outside input, of course.  We learn well from being with peers, just as one example. 

 

Self-taught is probably the wrong term, then, because just about everyone does get lots of inputs from outside themselves.  Let's just say that there are numerous, very strong skiers who have never had a formal lesson, and even a few who have virtually never skied lift-served and so had to reach a high level of skill with the added obstacle of having to earn all, or nearly all, turns.

 

Some no-lesson learning curves can be quite steep even for adults, by the way.  One phenomenon at several western resorts is the occasional Brazilian who shows up and decides to learn to ski, and in two years goes from never-ever to ripping local.  This is in part a socio-economic phenomenon, in that you have athletic young adults who have done other motion sports but not yet snow sports placed in a rich environment, including the ability to get in lots of days per season, if they do want to then acquire skills.  Yes, even these fast learners start as clueless beginners and then progress through various types of feedback.  No, these fast learners will never be in the Olympics, but some quickly end up skiing things that most instructors never will.

post #99 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
 

Thank you, HDN for the kind words and the tips for more performance. Zenny also PMed me similar suggestions. (I hope he, @zentune, doesn't mind me spilling the beans here)

 

The thought of getting a coach for a day or a few hours is always on my mind. I see a large number of racers at Mammoth training on closed courses, but I would feel sheepish telling them or the ski school that I want a coach or instructor to teach me to ski like a racer. I would appreciate a specific recommendation for a race coach/instructor at Mammoth very much.

 

The Mammoth program has a good reputation but is very pricey for relatively limited training compared with, say, the Park City program. If I understand you correctly, though, you are looking for a recommendation for individual coaching on an ad hoc basis rather than to sign up for a full season? Contact Pierre Jeangirard, in their race department and request him or anyone else he may nominate once you have explained your objectives. You will not regret it.

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