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What are we feeding our minds? - Page 4

post #91 of 114
Solution maintenance probably bi-weekly, maybe weekly at full production when it is consuming a lot of water.

I live at 7,400 ft, so heat isn't an issue. Some things like tomatoes that like heat are hard here outdoors without a sun warmed pot and up against the house. With strong sun, algae can be an issue if you plant too soon without enough seedling coverage to keep out light, but generally at end of season I am just pulling out the root systems and everything else is pretty much still sanitary. Lack of mold is one of those nice paybacks for permanently dry skin.

Edit: this is an aeroponic system. It's really just the roots hanging in the tower being bathed in the nutrient water.

In California, however, the longer growing season can pay big dividends. You can go seed to harvest in a month in the right conditions.


Edited by NayBreak - 2/6/14 at 12:19pm
post #92 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bumpfreaq View Post

Hey, ya know, bacon and lacinato kale is a helluva combo...... a few hot peppers and there ya go.

Beeler pork brats in the pan, followed by the kale. Who says kids won't eat greens?
post #93 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
 

Now this thread is getting somewhere  Bacon!  Mmmmmm, I love bacon.

In my back yard!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

http://www.beerbourbonbacon.com/

post #94 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post
 

Ate less food, worked harder.  Calories in, calories out.  Some things never change.

 

 

I actually had a conversation about this in the context of dogs a day ago.  All the same fad diets that exist for humans, tend to exist for dogs, too.  Few dogs have issues with wheat, but gluten-free kibble is a huge dog food category these days.  In spite of all the energy people spend worrying about what their dog eats, most dogs now are overweight due to plain overeating, with significant health issues as a result.  (Exercise fads also tend to spill over, including even unstable surface training.)

 

In the context of athletic performance, a fat dog, just like a fat person, is severely hampered, and long-term also has all sorts of potential joint issues if you do let one that wants to run hard.

 

It is bad enough that if you have a short-coated dog that actually is in shape, many people have such a distorted perception because of all the fat dogs out there that they will view the fit dog as dangerously thin. 

 

Dogs do well on Purina, dogs do well on raw meaty bones, dogs do well on pricey gluten-free kibble.  But, they need to eat moderate portions and exercise, and somehow a few generations ago people had a better handle on this than now.  Diet and exercise fads aren't going to change that for the dogs, where the food intake is wholly controlled by conscious decisions of their owners, any more than for people themselves. 

post #95 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post


I actually had a conversation about this in the context of dogs a day ago.  All the same fad diets that exist for humans, tend to exist for dogs, too.  Few dogs have issues with wheat, but gluten-free kibble is a huge dog food category these days.  In spite of all the energy people spend worrying about what their dog eats, most dogs now are overweight due to plain overeating, with significant health issues as a result.  (Exercise fads also tend to spill over, including even unstable surface training.)

In the context of athletic performance, a fat dog, just like a fat person, is severely hampered, and long-term also has all sorts of potential joint issues if you do let one that wants to run hard.

It is bad enough that if you have a short-coated dog that actually is in shape, many people have such a distorted perception because of all the fat dogs out there that they will view the fit dog as dangerously thin. 

Dogs do well on Purina, dogs do well on raw meaty bones, dogs do well on pricey gluten-free kibble.  But, they need to eat moderate portions and exercise, and somehow a few generations ago people had a better handle on this than now.  Diet and exercise fads aren't going to change that for the dogs, where the food intake is wholly controlled by conscious decisions of their owners, any more than for people themselves. 

Love it- esp the unstable surface training! When will it hit K9s?
post #96 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by iriponsnow View Post


Love it- esp the unstable surface training! When will it hit K9s?

;
www.fitpawsusa.com  ;  www.ballsnbands.com/dog_conditioning_exerciseballs.htmlwww.k9fitclub.com

 

It's hit.

post #97 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post

Dogs do well on Purina

In the sense of dropping enormous piles of intestinally processed corn in your yard, yes.

I agree with the overeating/no exercise part, though. No 'diet' can fix that.
post #98 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


In the sense of dropping enormous piles of intestinally processed corn in your yard, yes.

I agree with the overeating/no exercise part, though. No 'diet' can fix that.

 

Regarding Purina and also corn, the Iditarod's been won on it, lots of field trials have been won on it.  Niche dog foods focused on performance dogs -- for instance, foods made by people who race sled dogs, for people who race -- often have corn in them.  High-revving, performance dogs thrive on them.   Whether those products are satisfactory answers to the search for the perfect dog turd is another issue. 

post #99 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post

Regarding Purina and also corn, the Iditarod's been won on it, lots of field trials have been won on it.  Niche dog foods focused on performance dogs -- for instance, foods made by people who race sled dogs, for people who race -- often have corn in them.  High-revving, performance dogs thrive on them.   Whether those products are satisfactory answers to the search for the perfect dog turd is another issue. 

Sure, you can feed dogs cheap filler food. You can feed humans cheap filler food. Our food supply is based precisely on those economics - calories vs. micronutrients. We see the cost of this every day, but it certainly doesn't mean you can't engineer ultra running performance.

Even if you don't believe in the value of foods the don't have a bunch of filler product, the dogs will eat a lot less, the stool will be much smaller and in a dry climate may largely biodegrade if you have a bit of property to keep it out of the front yard, they will have a lot less gas, and you may save money in the big picture.

Again, just like humans, except for the stool in the yard part, at least we hope so.
post #100 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


Sure, you can feed dogs cheap filler food. You can feed humans cheap filler food. ...

It's not cheap filler food.  Some of the foods mentioned that do have corn are the canine equivalent of race gas, a premium, high-performance product that can also cost less than many niche foods. 

 

There are all sorts of subjective reasons someone might want to feed something else, but they should be aware health and performance shouldn't be meaningful concerns in making the choice. Pretty much like human diet choices.  Trixie the vanilla labradoodle isn't overweight, diabetic and hyperactive because of her kibble brand. 

post #101 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post

Some of the foods mentioned that do have corn are the canine equivalent of race gas, a premium, high-performance product
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank 
Trixie the vanilla labradoodle isn't overweight, diabetic and hyperactive because of her kibble brand.

You might see the problem here wink.gif?

Although I agree that Trixie's problems likely start with being left alone all day, continue because her human guardian is crazy, and finish because she lives in a high rise apartment.

She also doesn't have salivary amylase, so her digestion of starchy foods starts later in a short digestive tract. I don't think you have to apply paleo to dogs, but I also think digestive distress is an obvious marker in making food choices, and dogs are less biologically oriented to starch consumption than humans.

Now I have to go answer the door because the Orijen just arrived (Regional Red and 6 Fish) smile.gif
post #102 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post



You might see the problem here wink.gif?

...

No, not at all.  It's like saying there's a problem with an out of shape person eating chicken liver or chicken breasts because those items are good food for athletes.  Yes, they're good nutrition for athletes.  Yes, they're also good nutrition for people who aren't in good shape.  And yes, they're affordable.  None of those facts need to be viewed as problematic. 

 

As for going Paleo on dogs, dogs have actually evolved to have starch in their diet.  Not too different from humans again.  As far as human nutrition on the slopes, part of the lesson is that there are already pretty good options that don't require huge effort, inconvenience, or huge amounts of cash.  And, for people who do want to spend more, there are also excellent options for them, too.

post #103 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post

No, not at all.  It's like saying there's a problem with an out of shape person eating chicken liver or chicken breasts because those items are good food for athletes.  Yes, they're good nutrition for athletes.  Yes, they're also good nutrition for people who aren't in good shape.  And yes, they're affordable.  None of those facts need to be viewed as problematic. 

Corn isn't meaningful nutrition for humans or dogs, and dogs have a distinct disadvantage in digesting it (the amylase enzyme bit). It is exceedingly cheap starting with The 1973 Farm Bill subsidizing macro farms overproducing corn, but it isn't in dog food because it is healthy for a canine to eat large quantities. It is there because products like Purina are the epitome of industrial agriculture.

But I've never heard a defense of Purina as a premium product, and I suppose compared to SAD (Standard American Diet) it is.
post #104 of 114

Digestible Nutrients in Corn

Corn contains protein, sugar, starch and fat, all of which are digested in your gastrointestinal tract and absorbed into your bloodstream. A cup of cooked fresh, frozen or canned corn provides you with 4 to 5 grams of protein; 1 to 2 grams of fat; 5 to 7 grams of sugar; and 25 to 26 grams of starch. These digested and absorbed nutrients from a cup of corn supply you with roughly 140 calories of energy.

Indigestible, but Beneficial

Although corn's bran coat passes through your gastrointestinal tract without breaking down, this dietary fiber provides health-related benefits. The cellulose in corn bran absorbs water, which keeps your stool soft and promotes regular bowel movements. Additionally, the bulkiness of water-soaked cellulose causes you to feel full for an extended period of time, which may help with weight control.

post #105 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post

Digestible Nutrients in Corn



Corn contains protein, sugar, starch and fat, all of which are digested in your gastrointestinal tract and absorbed into your bloodstream. A cup of cooked fresh, frozen or canned corn provides you with 4 to 5 grams of protein; 1 to 2 grams of fat; 5 to 7 grams of sugar; and 25 to 26 grams of starch. These digested and absorbed nutrients from a cup of corn supply you with roughly 140 calories of energy.



Indigestible, but Beneficial



Although corn's bran coat passes through your gastrointestinal tract without breaking down, this dietary fiber provides health-related benefits. The cellulose in corn bran absorbs water, which keeps your stool soft and promotes regular bowel movements. Additionally, the bulkiness of water-soaked cellulose causes you to feel full for an extended period of time, which may help with weight control.



Right, and since starch us converted to glucose you are talking 32 grams of sugar in a cup of corn. A coffee sugar pack is 4 grams, so that is roughly 8 sugar packs. Yummy.

But that won't lead to canine diabetes or anything.
Edited by NayBreak - 2/10/14 at 5:30pm
post #106 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


Right, and since starch us converted to glucose you are talking 32 grams of sugar in a cup of corn. A coffee sugar pack us 4 grams, so that us roughly 8 sugar packs. Yummy.

But that won't lead to canine diabetes or anything.

If you let your kid mainline sugar, and not exercise, or your dog eat hot dog buns and no meat because the mutt is happy to do this, yes, this can be a recipe for diabetes.  Dogs however are evolved to eat some carbs.  This is one of the ways they differ from wolves, actually.  And, whether the binder in their kibble is from wheat, or corn, or rice, or whether they are getting their carbs and veggies from eating the guts of a road-killed deer, if they are getting the carbs as part of a balanced, well-designed diet and getting sufficient exercise, diabetes is not a big concern.  Same as for people. 

 

I'm not saying dogs, or people, need corn versus other equivalent elements in their diet.  I am pretty sure that it's hard to make a kibble for dogs without carbs (it's tough to get a biscuit or kibble to have a good consistency without it), and also that if you simply feed your dog jackrabbits, carp and downed cattle that again they end up with a meaningful amount of carbs in their diet.  I also know that some of the best sled dog racers and field-oriented dog trainers run their dogs on kibble with corn, for a reason.  Check out what's been won on Redpaw 32k, for instance, to mention a smaller high-performance manufacturer.

 

In skiing terms, a hot dog and fries ain't that bad a meal for little junior to get at lunch if he is skiing all day.  Keeping it to one hotdog and leaving the heavy meal for dinner might be indicated.  Making certain that junior is not obese and can actually do a pullup (which many kids can't these days) probably matters a lot more for junior's long-term health than whether he's gluten-free, only gets grass-fed beef, etc.

post #107 of 114
post #108 of 114

 The equivalent of high fructose corn syrup is not equal to a little corn, or carbs in general.  And mice are, well, mice.

post #109 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldPlank View Post

If you let your kid mainline sugar

The western world is mainlining sugar. Refined grains (flour) are just sugar. To which we add sugar, and then salt and fat. Sugar is the end of civilization. It is the most dangerous little white crystal we have ever created.

People have no idea how much sugar they are consuming. A tablespoon of ketchup, for example has four grams of sugar. That's another 3 or 4 of those sugar packets to go with your fries. Add a soda and drop another 10-15 packets. The hotdog bun is worth several (refined white flour) and the starchy russet potato fries (just starch to sugar) are about 10 more. So that's a cool 30 sugar packets for lunch. Zoom zoom zoom.
post #110 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post


The western world is mainlining sugar. Refined grains (flour) are just sugar. To which we add sugar, and then salt and fat. Sugar is the end of civilization. It is the most dangerous little white crystal we have ever created...

Well, that's perhaps a stretch.  The Swiss, for instance, are no strangers to flour or sugar, and are pretty skinny. 

 

In skiing terms, there's no reason based in athletic performance or skill acquisition to shy away from sugar with your coffee, hot dogs or hamburgers, or even a little Austrian pastry, or even potatoes and cheese like the Swiss have.  Behaviorally, certainly consuming great big gobs of sugar, or peanut butter, or other foods and getting lethargic in the near term and fat in the long term will hurt athletic performance and skill acquisition.  The sugar does not make a person lift it out of the bowl. 

post #111 of 114

A couple good, healthy recipes here, http://www.nomeatathlete.com/two-new-sweet-ways-to-enjoy-summer-corn-and-cucumbers/ and here, http://www.nomeatathlete.com/corn-cakes/ .

 

Plus, another athlete who's done well with corn in his diet (but not unlimited amounts of hot dog buns, which he would have a problem with if left alone with them) following a 30 mile run with about 18k of elevation change:

 


Edited by OldPlank - 2/23/14 at 7:20pm
post #112 of 114
Purina One Large Breed Adult
Dry Dog Food

Ingredients: Chicken (natural source of glucosamine), brewers rice, poultry by-product meal (natural source of glucosamine), corn gluten meal, whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols (form of vitamin E), pea fiber, oat meal, fish meal, animal digest, salt, potassium chloride, calcium phosphate, potassium citrate, vitamin E supplement, choline chloride, zinc sulfate, l-lysine monohydrochloride, l-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, niacin, vitamin A supplement, calcium carbonate, copper sulfate, calcium pantothenate, garlic oil, pyridoxine hydrochloride, vitamin B12 supplement, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin supplement, calcium iodate, vitamin D3 supplement, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), folic acid, biotin, sodium selenite
Quote:
Originally Posted by DogFoodAdvisor 
The first ingredient in this dog food lists chicken. Although it is a quality item, raw chicken contains about 80% water. After cooking, most of that moisture is lost… reducing the meat content to just a fraction of its original weight. After processing, this item would probably account for a smaller part of the total content of the finished product.

Which brings us to brewers rice… the second and (more likely) the dominant ingredient in this dog food. Brewers rice represents the small grain fragments left over after milling whole rice. This is an inexpensive cereal grain by-product and not considered a quality ingredient.

The third ingredient is poultry by-product meal… a dry rendered product of slaughterhouse waste. It’s made from what’s left of slaughtered poultry after all the prime cuts have been removed. This stuff can contain almost anything… feet, beaks, undeveloped eggs… you name it. We consider poultry by-products slightly lower in quality than a single-species ingredient (like chicken by-products). On the brighter side, by-product meals are meat concentrates and contain nearly 300% more protein than fresh poultry.

The fourth ingredient is corn gluten meal. Gluten is the rubbery residue remaining once corn has had most of its starchy carbohydrate washed out of it.
Compared to meat, glutens are inferior grain-based proteins lower in many of the essential amino acids dogs need for life. This inexpensive plant-based ingredient can significantly boost the total protein content reported in this dog food.

The next two ingredients include wheat and corn. Wheat and corn are inexpensive and controversial cereal grains of only modest nutritional value to a dog.
For this reason, we do not consider either wheat or corn preferred components in any dog food.

The seventh item is animal fat. Animal fat is a generic by-product of rendering, the same high-temperature process used to make meat meals. Since there’s no mention of a specific animal, this item could come from almost anywhere: roadkill, spoiled supermarket meat, dead, diseased or dying cattle — even euthanized livestock. For this reason, we do not consider generic animal fat a quality ingredient.

The eighth ingredient is pea fiber… a mix of soluble and insoluble plant fiber derived from pea hulls. It is probably used here to add bulk. In addition to the usual benefits of fiber, pea fiber can account for a trace of extra protein in this food.

The ninth ingredient is oatmeal… a whole-grain product made from coarsely ground oats. Oatmeal is naturally rich in B-vitamins, fiber and is also (unlike many other grains) gluten-free.

The tenth ingredient includes fish meal. Because it is considered a meat concentrate, fish meal contains almost 300% more protein than fresh fish itself.
Unfortunately, this particular item is anonymous. Because various fish contain different types of fats, we would have preferred to have known the source species. Fish meal is commonly made from the by-products of commercial fish operations. What’s more, the controversial chemical ethoxyquin is frequently used as a preservative in fish meals. But because it’s usually added to the raw fish before processing, the chemical does not have to be reported to consumers. We find no public assurances from the company this product is ethoxyquin-free. Without knowing more, and based upon this fish meal’s location on the list of ingredients, we would expect to find only a trace of ethoxyquin in this product.

Animal digest is a chemically hydrolyzed concoction of unspecified body parts… from unspecified animals. Animal digest is usually sprayed onto the surface of a dry kibble to improve its taste.

From here, the list goes on to include a number of other items. But to be realistic, ingredients located this far down the list (other than nutritional supplements) are not likely to have much of an effect on the overall rating of this product.

With four notable exceptions…

First, garlic oil may be a controversial item. We say “may be” here because we are not certain of the oil’s chemical relationship to raw garlic itself. Although the majority of experts favor the ingredient for its numerous health benefits, garlic (in rare cases) has been linked to Heinz body anemia in dogs. However, the limited professional literature we surveyed provided no definitive warnings regarding the use of garlic… especially in small amounts (as it is here).

Next, we find no mention of probiotics… friendly microorganisms applied to the surface of the kibble after processing.

Thirdly, the minerals listed here do not appear to be chelated. And that can make them more difficult to absorb. Non-chelated minerals are usually associated with lower quality dog foods.

And lastly, this Purina One recipe also contains menadione… a controversial form of vitamin K linked to liver toxicity, allergies and the abnormal break-down of red blood cells.
post #113 of 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by NayBreak View Post

Purina One Large Breed Adult
Dry Dog Food...[huge snip]

I.e., Purina makes a wide range of very healthy foods, for everything from couch potatoes to serious canine athletes.  And, they probably give back more to dog people than anyone else.  I'm sure some of them speed while driving and curse just like the rest of us, but as a company they are one of the most positive things out there dog-wise.  And I don't even always feed Purina.


Edited by OldPlank - 2/24/14 at 6:04am
post #114 of 114

On a slightly more serious note as regards human diets, let's look at NayBreak's long block quote, and see whether it holds up.  There certainly are similar pronouncements about all sorts of "devil foods" that people themselves should avoid.  DogFoodAdvisor is written by a dentist.  One of his premises seems to be that every part of a dog food kibble recipe has to have good nutritional value for the food to be good.  Of course, whether applied to dog food, or to human food, this is false.  Much of the makeup of a carrot or spinach or a kidney bean, or even a roast, is stuff that our bodies don't completely digest.  (This is true of dogs as well in terms of their diet in the wild.)  Somehow we, and dogs, survived, in part by eating a diet that in the aggregate is a blend of ingredients.  Like kibble.

 

The DogFoodAdvisor site also notes the use of gluten.  Gluten-free is obviously a big human diet fad currently.  Vets will tell you dogs are rarely bothered by gluten, but then humans generally aren't bothered by it, either. 

 

Amusingly regarding corn, corn is very useful for vegetarian athletes because it helps them keep a balanced diet.  So, demon-food, for us and for dogs, or for those who choose to eat it one healthy option as part of a balanced diet? (In a dog-food, they aren't feeding the dog raw corn, and the dog in fact can digest it, btw.) 

 

The reality is there are a range of healthy choices at a variety of price points and convenience points.  Some people like to drive Chevy, some want a Range Rover. 

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