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reducing banking on turns - Page 3

post #61 of 69

Errgghh, TheRusty, my knees are buckling...   That's Jeb, by the way. 



post #62 of 69

Fixed it. I knew that. Got distracted - Was thinking of Mutt and Jeff - I'm going to use that.

post #63 of 69

toddlasher - following is a link to what may be a good couple of drills for you to work on:




In the second drill take particular note of where he is beginning the new turn on the new outside ski - very high in the turn, while it is still the old inside ski.  This is a very important to turn shape and allows you to establish an early edge, which will give shape to the turn to follow.  Practice the drill until you can do it consistently, and come back to it with some regularity.  It will be transformative.



post #64 of 69
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Tog my thinking is that if you are leaning in you will fall over if you don't have the inside ski on the snow to hold you up.  I guess if you have enough speed that won't happen.


Can you explain why you find this to be false?

Well if you monitor how they're doing it, ok, but just skiing on the outside ski one can bank.

There is def some turns that are banked in racing at World Cup Level. Even slalom.


Taking it to the Bank. Ivica Kostelic:

This could certainly end up more angulated, and he's already somehwhat there in the last image, but he's starting out mostly banked. (2nd to last image)


Photo: Ron LeMaster

post #65 of 69

Tog I do realize that many racers start their turns with pure inclination and then add angulation as the turn progresses.


I don't think this necessarily changes what I said though, particularly for lower speed skiing.


And they still have the inside ski on the snow.

post #66 of 69



Well if you monitor how they're doing it, ok, but just skiing on the outside ski one can bank.

There is def some turns that are banked in racing at World Cup Level. Even slalom."


With respect Tog, I am not sure what this has to do with a "normal" skier, or in particular toddlasher, who has identified in his own skiing that he leans to the inside and banks his turns.  Indeed, it has almost nothing to do with the rest of us, because the athleticism and accuracy shown is light years beyond the rest of us.  As such, while interesting to understand what he is doing, it does little more than muddy the waters when we are talking about mere mortals and how we help them. 


"I am a psia 7 skier and i noticed on video that I am banking my turns (leaning my upper body inside). I understand the basic concept of banking vs angulation and have tried to muddle through old posts on this topic. There is a ton of debate and technical discussion but I am looking for one or two basic thoughts to work on. 2 things I have tried are simply keeping my head steady (less lateral movement) and trying to keep my center of mass out over my skis as they cross the fall line. Am I on the right track? Thanks."


Reading between the lines on what he has said, it seems likely that he is not balanced over his outside ski because the banking places more of his COM over his inside ski.  He is moving towards the right idea when he says that he wants his center of mass over his skis (he seems to be saying that he sees that it is not even there).  More accurately, we want to be balanced over our outside ski, which means that the COM will be even more forward that toddlasher is alluding to. 


Banking can carry a number of non-functional sins with it.  If there is no counter or angulation accompanying it, then the outside ski is usually not doing enough to establish a strong edge and defined shape to the turn - it is simply not contributing enough to the turn and the turn is far less secure as a result.  The compensation is often rotating the upper body up hill ahead of the lower body, which maybe gets them through the turn (sort of).  But it leaves them in not so good shape to begin the next turn because most of their weight is over the inside ski and behind it.  They literally have a long way to go before they can begin to shape the next turn, and they over-rotate to the inside again to rush things around, ad nauseum.  Anybody who has taught for a while has seen this many, many times. 


So banking means a far different thing to Todd than it does to the superhero shown above.  Everything the skier is doing above is tactical, so much of what the rest of us do is compensatory for our own less accurate and less successful movements.


If I look at the bottom 3 frames of the figure - in the top one I see that he is establishing an edge over the new outside ski and already beginning to balance over it by moving his COM in that direction while still above the fall line.  I see the beginnings of counter and angulation.  In the second, while he is carving on both skis, the outside ski is clearly the stronger one, judging by the bend in the two skis.  What is also interesting is the tilt of his head in the bottom two frames.  Even at the bottom of this turn, his body seems to already beginning to anticipate and move towards the next transition. 


Considering the world cup level of his skiing, it is important to note that he is balancing against the hill with some extreme forces a good bit of the time



post #67 of 69

Yes, I agree.

Surf, these discussions generally go far afield. I was answering in general to banking. I can bank and still be on the outside ski. That's all. I do get it- skiing on one ski, can be beneficial for someone who is rarely committed to the outside ski.

Do realize though, that one can be mostly balanced on the outside ski in a wedge turn. And one should allow balance on the outside ski in a wedge turn. The ratio is less because of speed and the body still stays between the skis.

post #68 of 69

I do agree with you that one should be balanced over the outside ski in a wedge turn.  You cannot carve a turn on the outside ski in a wedge without your mass begin directed over it as it is extended, and accompanied by flexion on the inside ski.  The interesting thing about wedges in upper level skiing is that you find that all the movement patterns and pressuring used in parallel skiing should also be there in a wedge and for the same reasons.  All of this, of course, is dialed back in wedge exercizes.  The luxury of the wedge drills are the stability and time allowing you to isolate and focus on particular movements. 



post #69 of 69
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the ideas. Definitely going to try some of these drills and get a private lesson to make sure im working on the right things. Epicski is such a great site for getting input from experienced skiers and instructors. (Even if you sometimes get more input than you bargained for).
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