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carving and speed control on steeper terrain - Page 3

post #61 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

If it has run out and it's too steep to carve with an old speed ski, it's too steep to ski; it's called a "cliff".  I will admit the speed control will come from air friction and you will be carving at terminal velocity.


I've skied the headwall at Tuckermans, and I've seen lots of other people ski.  I've never seen anyone carve there.  Would you carve that, or is that what you call a cliff?

 

BK


I have never been to Tukermans, and it is hard to tell from video how steep it is.

 

Whether or not I would carve it depends on what I would have to ski over at terminal velocity.  If the physics of it is that I would be impaled into a rock face, unable to make a do or die turn at the bottom or get pretzelized in a compression producing 10g of vertical acceleration, then no, otherwise, yes. 

 

In the past, anything with run-out, meaning not a sharp turn or series of humongous bumps beyond a steep that I could straight-line (schuss) without doing an unwanted somersault due to the drag on skis touching the snow even when leaned way back with head next to tails, I would carve; I used to seek out these places so I could ski faster because I was (am?) an adrenaline addict.  I never got into cliff jumping, but did ski steeps up to the point where if it were any steeper it would be purely jumping, the point at which a series of momentary push offs sufficed to keep the skis sufficiently away from the snow and balance in place.

 

To address the OP's question.  Carving (as in pure edge-locked carving) is the most efficient form of skiing, it is for skiing with the most speed possible after converting the potential energy of elevation into speed.  Skiing tighter turns will produce more friction, but not enough to really count.  You have to do something else if you don't want to ski fast, even on moderate (say 30 degree) slopes.

post #62 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomicman View Post

You can't redirect with a lot of edge pressure, period! BK, you are totally off base here! Redirection is simply a sideslip drift across the hill ratehr than down it at the top of the turn. 
I agree with that, but redirection the way ussa uses the term is not a speed control technique. But if you add some edge and pressure to the drifting, you get a lot of speed control. The hard skill is not drifting, it's getting edge and pressure. As you said, you don't need much edge to get a lot of speed control, but then it's hard to get any edge at the top of the turn on steeps. And the definition of steep is where it is hard for YOU to get edge and pressure at the top of the turn.

BK
post #63 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post


I have never been to Tukermans, and it is hard to tell from video how steep it is.

Whether or not I would carve it depends on what I would have to ski over at terminal velocity.  If the physics of it is that I would be impaled into a rock face, unable to make a do or die turn at the bottom or get pretzelized in a compression producing 10g of vertical acceleration, then no, otherwise, yes. 

In the past, anything with run-out, meaning not a sharp turn or series of humongous bumps beyond a steep that I could straight-line (schuss) without doing an unwanted somersault due to the drag on skis touching the snow even when leaned way back with head next to tails, I would carve; I used to seek out these places so I could ski faster because I was (am?) an adrenaline addict.  I never got into cliff jumping, but did ski steeps up to the point where if it were any steeper it would be purely jumping, the point at which a series of momentary push offs sufficed to keep the skis sufficiently away from the snow and balance in place.

To address the OP's question.  Carving (as in pure edge-locked carving) is the most efficient form of skiing, it is for skiing with the most speed possible after converting the potential energy of elevation into speed.  Skiing tighter turns will produce more friction, but not enough to really count.  You have to do something else if you don't want to ski fast, even on moderate (say 30 degree) slopes.
If you saw a world cup skier in slow motion, you would see they are not edge locked. Their skis are bouncing all over. Instructors like edge locked because they are teaching control, not speed. ( why are instructors like minivans? They all look alike and go slow.) But based on your post above, maybe speed control isn't your best skill.

BK
post #64 of 69

Bode, I know you aren't including all instructors since many have a very strong racing background. Including many past WC level skiers.

post #65 of 69

Yes the skis bounce, but when the skis are touching the snow they are moving in a direction parallel with their edges, if the skier is trying to ski faster and they are good.

post #66 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post


If you saw a world cup skier in slow motion, you would see they are not edge locked. Their skis are bouncing all over. Instructors like edge locked because they are teaching control, not speed. ( why are instructors like minivans? They all look alike and go slow.) But based on your post above, maybe speed control isn't your best skill.

BK  

 

 

  Note: Bold added by yours truly...

 

    Is that so Bode? :cool

 

   zenny

post #67 of 69

speed control primarily comes from keeping the skis out of the fall line.  That not only constrains gravity from accelerating you, but in some cases by turning the skis away from gravity, gravity actually brakes the skier.

 

Secondly you can slow yourself regardless of your direction of motion relative to gravity by running into a wall of some kind.  The wall will push back and you will slow to a stop very suddenly.

 

Well ok, barring the use of a wall to slow you, you can create a virtual wall with heavily pressured edges.  Is that not what a hockey stop is?  But what about a hockey stop slows you?  Some might say skidding friction, but skidding without pressure has miniscule slowing effect.  More pressure, creates more friction and more slowing effect.  More of a virtual wall to push back on the skier.  Its no different then jumping off a roof and landing on the ground.  The ground pushes back and you stop.  Its the push pack that slows you.

 

That brings us to the final question which is how to apply the virtual wall effect, without doing an actual hockey stop?  Well how about if the skis are at 80 degrees from the direction of travel instead of 90 degrees as in a hockey stop?  You will end up hockey stopping more gradually, with a drift off course at the same time.  So what is happening is that some of the momentum is being converted into redirection of the skier in a new direction, the rest is being pushed back by the 80 degrees of virtual wall.  How about 70 degrees, 50 degrees, 10 degrees?  

 

Yes a bit of steering angle or actually skid angle, creates a slowing effect because there is a virtual wall pushing back and the momentum is not being redirected in a new direction "perfectly".  Some of it is of course, that's why you'd be making a brushed turn, but not all of it is, the virtual wall is pushing back and slowing you.  If you have perfect arcing, then the momentum is being redirected rather close to perfectly, and much much less braking occurs.  The bent ski is able to efficiently covert this motion into the new direction established by that steering angle.  However if the edge angle is restrained to avoid arcing, and/or steering angle is increased to include some skidding or brushing...now the energy is not being redirected perfectly and some of the momentum will continue in a straight line.  More edging can create more carving, and more redirection, less braking.  Less edge angle can allow brushing, but if you flatten the skis too much, then the skis just drift and there is not much speed control either.  That becomes more like hockey slips.  

 

There is a sweet spot of edging where edge angle is creating redirection and brushing is allowing skid angle, but there is just a small bit of brushing being allowed.  Just a small amount.  Too much brushing means drifting with much less speed control.  Not enough brushing means arcing and less speed control.  The sweet spot of speed control is just the smallest little amount of brushing which basically embraces as much edge angle as possible without actually getting into arcing.   Larger steering angle also contributes to this, but with large edge angles, skis will tend to automatically reduce steering angle rather quickly as they redirect into a new direction, so in practical terms, only a small skid angle happens in the sweet spot zone when large edge angles and pressure are needed for both the turn and to brake you.

 

This small amount of brushing with the largest edge angle possible, and some skid angle, creates the pushback pressure needed to slow the skier with braking.  Do this through the entire turn shape, top to bottom, and you will have speed control in the steeps.  Do it while staying out of the fall line and you will really have smooth control.

 

Another side benefit of the above is that it creates "steering", which basically tightens up the turn radius a bit, which helps keep you out of the fall line.


Edited by borntoski683 - 1/23/14 at 9:29pm
post #68 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


but in some cases by turning the skis away from gravity, gravity actually brakes the skier.


A nice post BTS... but are you sure about gravity braking the skier? IMHExperience, gravity often breaks a skier. smile.gif
post #69 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post

You can also turn further out of the fallline and try to stay out of the fall line as much as possible with turn shape.

 

Interesting. I just read through the entire thread, and that bit of post #3 quoted above is the one thing that stuck in my mind. And then BTS elaborated on that (and some other stuff) quite a bit in post #67 just above.

 

I was thinking recently about how to ski slowly and in control on steep(ish), firm(ish) runs, where a sweeping, completed round turn (carved or otherwise) is not an option - essentially skiing in a fairly tight corridor. And I recalled that segment in The Edge Of Never where Plake is showing Kye Petersen how to execute a kind of steeps survival turn to prepare him for skiing Chamonix. I'm not sure what that turn is called, but basically it's what shows here (at 2:31 if the vid doesn't auto play)...

 

 

 

In that clip above they're hopping into it a bit, but in the film they do it from a stand-still, the trick being to engage the edges up high and with some steering get the skis to cleanly come around 180 degrees. It's not a hockey stop, it's not really a skid. If done correctly it's kinda a very quick carved turn of short duration. At least that's how I see it.

 

Anyway, as a drill I've been trying to to do those, lingering a bit if not outright pausing before going from one 180 turn to the next - not linking. When I get the movement right - and with the right edge and platform angles - the skis bite - very solid/confident! If I can get that feeling going then I try to back off a bit and start to round out and link the turns, but not lose the solid "bite" feeling I've cultivated with the 180 drill. If I lose the feeling - if the turns get sloppy - I stop and go back to the drill.

 

Does that make sense?

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