or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › There is no "style" in skiing. there is only physics.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

There is no "style" in skiing. there is only physics.

post #1 of 30
Thread Starter 

whether you are PSIA, PMTS, american, aussie, koreans, austrian, park rat, racer, big mountain free skier. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Physics never changes.

 

you are either making a round turn or you are not

you are either seperated at your femur/pelvis joint or you are not

you are either balance on your outside ski or you are not

you are either able to build pressure into the fall line(or apex) or you are not.

you are either able have your COMCenter of mass, you body) beat your BOS(base of support, or stance skis, or outside ski) to the fallline or you are not

 

if movement you are doing or are coaching is not getting any of the above to happen, then what are you actually doing? what are you actually teaching?

post #2 of 30

I think all of these entities realize the importance of efficient movements. But with so many possibilities within this common framework we find regional distinctions and their emphasis .It's for us to take what we find and make it work for you. Humans are cool , they can find a billion solutions of the same problem. It's our job to steer them to a path we know will work for them if they apply themselves.

 

We have a mission of basic principles of movement to share. It's for them to to put their personal stamp on it.  Teach versatility, let them draw from skills they build their skiing upon.

post #3 of 30

There is style, as well as physics, in everything. 

 

At least every human endeavor.

post #4 of 30

An artist works within the confines of a medium, for example, an oil paint on canvas painter creates an abstract painting using the brush, the paint and the canvas and the light.

 

Skiing is an art form, and the skier works within the confines of physics.

post #5 of 30

May I understand this as the following: the "round turn", "balance", etc are end results. How a skier achieve the end results are "styles". Since everyone is different from each other in many aspects such as flexibility, weight, height, etc, the ways each one achieves the same end result are slightly different, therefore creating different "styles"?

post #6 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

whether you are PSIA, PMTS, american, aussie, koreans, austrian, park rat, racer, big mountain free skier. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Physics never changes.

 

you are either making a round turn or you are not

you are either seperated at your femur/pelvis joint or you are not

you are either balance on your outside ski or you are not

you are either able to build pressure into the fall line(or apex) or you are not.

you are either able have your COMCenter of mass, you body) beat your BOS(base of support, or stance skis, or outside ski) to the fallline or you are not

 

if movement you are doing or are coaching is not getting any of the above to happen, then what are you actually doing? what are you actually teaching?

 

It's very black and white and while I totally agree that's what we strive for (the end result).  The road to get there can be varied, and often there are many different tactics to achieve the same thing.  So the frustration in the other thread is "this is the only way to edge the skis" which I think is ridiculous.  Do whatever it takes to get those end results.  Experiment with different approaches, because no 2 learners are alike.

post #7 of 30

You either strive to comprehend all the facets of physics or you don't.

post #8 of 30
No problems with your thoughts, Josh. The mechanics of strong skiing are the same. Still, we can stand at the bottom of a hill and pick out two different strong skiers and it won't always be body type or clothing that's the tell. I think the interski comparison vids are pretty interesting. Out of curiosity, is there a skier in the vid who you feel is exceptionally strong and would point a client toward as an example?? Is it the same as a skier whose 'style/attitude' on the hill you like?

For an example, I like the style/attitude of the Swiss skier. Like the flow and the fun... Looks like he's playing with the terrain. He makes a mistake at the top and a nice flowing white pass recovery. Technically, I've always like Michel Sebastien's skiing even if some feel the Canadians are hunched over. The Japanese are doing the following thing that bugs me, but I know from experience that they can ski however they want... just wish they wouldn't over think everything. Wheat, chafe, etc....




Or try this: http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=LEGbfm5DUmI&list=PL3544ACDEA781F039


I personally think the Koreans went home after interski 2011, did some soul searching, and made some changes that have taken them closer to the Canadian model.
post #9 of 30

Julia has style:

 

 

The rest of you have only dysfunctional adaptations necessitated by your own skill deficiencies.

 

BK

post #10 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bode Klammer View Post

Julia has style:




The rest of you have only dysfunctional adaptations necessitated by your own skill deficiencies.

BK
That too...
post #11 of 30

Yoda sez: "There is only do, or do not. There is no try."

 

 

 

post #12 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post
 

Yoda sez: "There is only do, or do not. There is no try."

 

 

 

 

This statement proves that Yoda was a little green fool.

post #13 of 30

Yeah the premise sounds like it's true, but it's not. Skiing certainly has gotten closer together in technique than decades ago when there were distinct national styles.

 

However, I'll just prove the statement wrong with this:

Some people make every turn a retraction turn, or let's say 97% retraction turns. - Style.

Some people ski hunched over from the waist almost the entire, well 97%, of the time. - Style

That's not necessary by any Physics.

It's a Style based on .....?  I'll say belief and wait for the flamethrowers.

 

And Physics.....every thread that involves actual Physics devolves into those that actually know Physics and can carry on a conversation and the vast majority that don't. The conversations, even with those who know what they're talking about generally just become confusing.

 

Besides, what's wrong with someone who say wants to ski on straight skis and push their tails around? I'd never teach it, but they love it and are happy about it. They've even tried other ways yet go back. What physics will you use to prove them wrong?


Edited by Tog - 1/10/14 at 7:38am
post #14 of 30
I don't disagree with the basic premise of the statement in OP#1, but what's the point that's being implied here and for who?
post #15 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

whether you are PSIA, PMTS, american, aussie, koreans, austrian, park rat, racer, big mountain free skier. IT DOES NOT MATTER. Physics never changes.

 

you are either making a round turn or you are not

you are either seperated at your femur/pelvis joint or you are not

you are either balance on your outside ski or you are not

you are either able to build pressure into the fall line(or apex) or you are not.

you are either able have your COMCenter of mass, you body) beat your BOS(base of support, or stance skis, or outside ski) to the fallline or you are not

 

if movement you are doing or are coaching is not getting any of the above to happen, then what are you actually doing? what are you actually teaching?

Question: 

Does body geometry and size factor into the perception of style vs skiing physics?  It seems that it should because geometry/volume are physical factors. 

Also, does the clothing make a difference?  The reason I bring this up is because I've had this discussion with folks who take their racing seriously and won't ski with a jacket that has a hood, and the clothing has to be very fitted. 

 

Watch Mike Hafer and Robin Barnes ski the same run with the same conditions on like equipment and you'll see (what seems to be) different styles, yet both are near perfect.  I suspect that geometry, size, and fitness may be the Physical difference. 

 

 

Please don't take this as an opportunity to take shots at Mike or Robin.

post #16 of 30
TC, no doubt body shape~type change things. That's basic physics as well... different center of mass, etc... LeMaster talks about variations in high level skiing quite succinctly in Ultimate Skiing.
post #17 of 30

Josh makes a good point, however he paints the picture in black and white where there are many shades of gray.  Style and be construed in different ways and skiers can exert the same basic forces and maintain the same basic balance while having different styles.  Technique is another variable; I happen to believe that there are different techniques that can be applied for different terrain and also for varying snow conditions.  Form is a word I hate as I feel it causes skiers to think about how they look and not where they are balancing.  To me, as a long time skier and non instructor, balance is the main thing and everything else hinges on that. 

 

The physics remain the same but the technique varies:  A World Cup mogul skier is going to ski the zipper line and a World Cup racer in the bumps is going to be carving turns with a different style...I only say this because I have seen it.

 

Without differences in style we might all ski like Josh...not necessarily a bad thing from my experience but I strive to maintain a certain, rough around the edges, individuality in my skiing.

post #18 of 30
Very well put
post #19 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
 

Josh makes a good point, however he paints the picture in black and white where there are many shades of gray.  Style and be construed in different ways and skiers can exert the same basic forces and maintain the same basic balance while having different styles.  Technique is another variable; I happen to believe that there are different techniques that can be applied for different terrain and also for varying snow conditions.  Form is a word I hate as I feel it causes skiers to think about how they look and not where they are balancing.  To me, as a long time skier and non instructor, balance is the main thing and everything else hinges on that. 

 

The physics remain the same but the technique varies:  A World Cup mogul skier is going to ski the zipper line and a World Cup racer in the bumps is going to be carving turns with a different style...I only say this because I have seen it.

 

Without differences in style we might all ski like Josh...not necessarily a bad thing from my experience but I strive to maintain a certain, rough around the edges, individuality in my skiing.

Yup

@Bob Barnes shows this quite well in this video

post #20 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trekchick View Post
 

Yup

@Bob Barnes shows this quite well in this video

The first few minutes are note worthy. What is style?  Is that a different technique, line, DIRT or length of poles and Tshirt?  Be sure to clarify this or people will get lost.  

post #21 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarryZ View Post
 

I think all of these entities realize the importance of efficient movements. But with so many possibilities within this common framework we find regional distinctions and their emphasis .It's for us to take what we find and make it work for you. Humans are cool , they can find a billion solutions of the same problem. It's our job to steer them to a path we know will work for them if they apply themselves.

 

We have a mission of basic principles of movement to share. It's for them to to put their personal stamp on it.  Teach versatility, let them draw from skills they build their skiing upon.

 

Teach versatility?  Are you kidding?  There are a million different types of turns and ways to turn while skiing.  I would rather teach one to build from that is most efficient and "clean" than the other 999,999 and then let them find the 1. 

post #22 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
 

Josh makes a good point, however he paints the picture in black and white where there are many shades of gray.  Style and be construed in different ways and skiers can exert the same basic forces and maintain the same basic balance while having different styles.  Technique is another variable; I happen to believe that there are different techniques that can be applied for different terrain and also for varying snow conditions.  Form is a word I hate as I feel it causes skiers to think about how they look and not where they are balancing.  To me, as a long time skier and non instructor, balance is the main thing and everything else hinges on that. 

 

The physics remain the same but the technique varies:  A World Cup mogul skier is going to ski the zipper line and a World Cup racer in the bumps is going to be carving turns with a different style...I only say this because I have seen it.

 

Without differences in style we might all ski like Josh...not necessarily a bad thing from my experience but I strive to maintain a certain, rough around the edges, individuality in my skiing.

 

That's because nobody taught you good technique.  Have fun skiing rough around your edges for another 10 years.  You are missing out.  Believe me, once you feel it you will never want to  go back. 

post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsofbos View Post
 

 

That's because nobody taught you good technique.  Have fun skiing rough around your edges for another 10 years.  You are missing out.  Believe me, once you feel it you will never want to  go back. 

Once I feel what exactly?  I never said I was not a good skier and you have never seen me ski.  I happen to think I play pretty well with gravity and snow... but that's just me.

post #24 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

whether you are ... aussie,  IT DOES NOT MATTER. Physics never changes.

 Bulldust mate. I go through the finish line 17 hours before you even started :yahoo:

 

- Posted tomorrow on my Iphone 6 Tricorder

 

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEcQqQIwAg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theverge.com%2F2014%2F1%2F10%2F5294044%2Fscanadu-scout-the-handheld-medical-tricorder-shows-off-its-sleek-new&ei=A6bTUuezNNGYlAWyxYGoDw&usg=AFQjCNG5HS1C6cQ40bgFQIZecCLYgZBStA&sig2=wqrL5q9N6agzKW6S7FII9A&bvm=bv.59026428,d.dGI

 

 

;) 

post #25 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by crank View Post
 

Once I feel what exactly?  I never said I was not a good skier and you have never seen me ski.  I happen to think I play pretty well with gravity and snow... but that's just me.

 

Fair enough.  I guess it was your comment about being rough around the edges that brought visuals of fighting gravity and the snow to my head.  My bad. 

post #26 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 

Yeah the premise sounds like it's true, but it's not. Skiing certainly has gotten closer together in technique than decades ago when there were distinct national styles.

 

However, I'll just prove the statement wrong with this:

Some people make every turn a retraction turn, or let's say 97% retraction turns. - Style.

Some people ski hunched over from the waist almost the entire, well 97%, of the time. - Style

That's not necessary by any Physics.

It's a Style based on .....?  I'll say belief and wait for the flamethrowers.

 

And Physics.....every thread that involves actual Physics devolves into those that actually know Physics and can carry on a conversation and the vast majority that don't. The conversations, even with those who know what they're talking about generally just become confusing.

 

Besides, what's wrong with someone who say wants to ski on straight skis and push their tails around? I'd never teach it, but they love it and are happy about it. They've even tried other ways yet go back. What physics will you use to prove them wrong?

 

I would say that they have tried other ways and maybe even shaped skis, but that doesn't mean they tried the way they were designed to be used 97% of the time.  Why use shaped skis of you are going to use the same style and technique that you used on straight skis?   They are different skis and allow different technique which will produce a different style.  I've skied hunched, I've used park-and-ride, edge locked turns, up unweighting, skidding and every other turn you can think of to find what works best.  None of those are it on modern skis.  Sure, I will pull them out from time to time because my line or intent may dictate those turns, but 97% of the time the physics allow me a better option. 

post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsofbos View Post
 

 

I would say that they have tried other ways and maybe even shaped skis, but that doesn't mean they tried the way they were designed to be used 97% of the time.  Why use shaped skis of you are going to use the same style and technique that you used on straight skis?   They are different skis and allow different technique which will produce a different style.  I've skied hunched, I've used park-and-ride, edge locked turns, up unweighting, skidding and every other turn you can think of to find what works best.  None of those are it on modern skis.  Sure, I will pull them out from time to time because my line or intent may dictate those turns, but 97% of the time the physics allow me a better option. 


And that option is?

 

fom

post #28 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 


And that option is?

 

fom

 

Femur rotation in the hip socket and balancing on the boot and ski mark with flexion and extension in all of your joints. 

post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsofbos View Post
 

 

Teach versatility?  Are you kidding?  There are a million different types of turns and ways to turn while skiing.  I would rather teach one to build from that is most efficient and "clean" than the other 999,999 and then let them find the 1. 

There are only two types of turns. Left or right. Enjoy yours.

post #30 of 30

What nonsensical logic! There is only STYLE that differentiates one skier from another. The physics is exactly the same. Nobody, nothing, no movement can change the laws of physics. Gravity exists with or without Newton. (There is correct and incorrect understanding of physics, but that doesn't seem to correlate to a person's skiing ability. And whether a skier has a particular STYLE because he/she likes it or is unable to do otherwise is another story)

 

You are either able to ski like Josh Matta or you are not. I'm not. What do I need to do to ski like him? What piece of physics am I missing?

 

"Intent dictates technique" (A Bob Barnes' quote, I think). Now, that is something I can believe in. However whether the technique is optimal for the intent is indeed dictated by physics. It is quite possible that the technique is lousy for the intended purpose, or that it works well but the understanding why it does is wrong. Physics can help you there, but you need to be specific. Tell me your intent and tell me your technique then we can have something to invoke physics in the discussion.

 

Hehehe, the lack of snow is driving me crazy.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › Ski Training and Pro Forums › Ski Instruction & Coaching › There is no "style" in skiing. there is only physics.