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How many days, what to expect.

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

If someone skis 5 to ten days a season what is a reasonable level of ability for them to expect to achieve?

 

Same question for 15 to 25 days and again for 30+ days.

 

fom

post #2 of 16

I assume you mean in average, as everyone is different.

You need to state in how many season aswell, or its best to ask in a timeframe, so how much one would expect to achieve in 1,2,3,5,7,10 seasons.

 

So with:

 

5-10 days a season

15-25 days a season

30+ days a season

 

what should one expect his skill level to be with average progress after :

 

1 season

2 seasons

3 seasons

5 seasons

7 seasons

10 seasons

post #3 of 16

It depends.  You need more time than 5-10 days a season to progress impressively as an adult.

Are you a teenager?  If so, you may progress faster than your 20-60 year old elders.  Plus you need more than that.  

 

For adults, mileage is necessary but not enough all by itself.  Many adults hit a plateau early and stay there even if they ski 40 days per season.

That mileage needs to be accompanied with deliberate practice of good stuff, not misunderstood stuff.  

Skiing around with friends during fun weekends usually doesn't provide the focus you'll need for advancement (exception:  kids in terrain parks).

15-25 days per season spent skiing around with friends will follow the dictum:  Practice makes Permanent 

(as opposed to Practice makes Perfect).

You need more than time.

 

How good do you want to get?  

How much are you willing to work to get that good?

How much are you willing to spend on lessons and lift tickets to get that good?


Edited by LiquidFeet - 1/14/14 at 4:15pm
post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLoveSkiing View Post
 

I assume you mean in average, as everyone is different.

You need to state in how many season aswell, or its best to ask in a timeframe, so how much one would expect to achieve in 1,2,3,5,7,10 seasons.

 

So with:

 

5-10 days a season

15-25 days a season

30+ days a season

 

what should one expect his skill level to be with average progress after :

 

1 season

2 seasons

3 seasons

5 seasons

7 seasons

10 seasons


ILS,

 

I applied the KISS principle to the question I asked and left it more open to a variety of answers.

 

fom

post #5 of 16

KISS = intermediate for all questions.

post #6 of 16
I really think it depends on the individual. Someone who is motivated to improve and has the right direction can achieve impressive results with little snow time. Getting the student's motivation and perception of their ability as it relates to what they are working toward, in-line with the coaching that is being provided is often one of the biggest challenges. Once those components are in line, improvement can come very quickly. Motivation, awareness, and coaching are not the three silver bullets for achieving skiing greatness, but they can certainly can give a skier a strong upper hand in the improvement process. Your mileage may vary because not all skiers are created equal.

The video below shows a 10-day per year skier, who has drastically improved with only a few days on snow each season. The majority of the changes came in the last two seasons. It can be done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doublediamond223 View Post

post #7 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoldman View Post
 

If someone skis 5 to ten days a season what is a reasonable level of ability for them to expect to achieve?

 

Same question for 15 to 25 days and again for 30+ days.

 

fom


What is a reasonable level of ability? Any.

 

Simple.

post #8 of 16

My resort has a first time skier program that gives free lessons for the first season. I had one 10YO girl for her 8th day. Our expert run is a step below the black runs out West, but based on her performance, she could have done an out West black run just fine. For once a week for 2 months, I'd call that unremarkable. I've had a few rock stars in my day who could have gone from first time to expert runs in 2 days. I've also seen plenty of intermediate skiers think they were experts because they could ski a black run without getting killed.

 

What's the point?

post #9 of 16

If you're an adult (over age 25) you're a terminal intermediate.  All these other folks may pump you up with hope, but that's it.  Sorry. Want to be more than that?   Bump up you time to 20 days or more for a few seasons, that's enough to get you to the next level.  And remember:  1 uninterupted week = 8 or 9 weekends.

post #10 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

I really think it depends on the individual. Someone who is motivated to improve and has the right direction can achieve impressive results with little snow time. Getting the student's motivation and perception of their ability as it relates to what they are working toward, in-line with the coaching that is being provided is often one of the biggest challenges. Once those components are in line, improvement can come very quickly. Motivation, awareness, and coaching are not the three silver bullets for achieving skiing greatness, but they can certainly can give a skier a strong upper hand in the improvement process. Your mileage may vary because not all skiers are created equal.

The video below shows a 10-day per year skier, who has drastically improved with only a few days on snow each season. The majority of the changes came in the last two seasons. It can be done.

 

 

funny it all groomer skiing.

 

I am going to have to agree with Kletter here. if you want to be an expert skier just find a way to ski every day. If you love enough you already have.

post #11 of 16

Yeah, not sure what the point is.  The guy in the video isn't much of an example of anything in my book.  With some effort almost anybody can be doing that on green groomers.  So what's next?  Odds are pretty good that he'll be doing the same thing in 5 years unless he skis more than a few days per year. 

 

It's said that mastery of pretty much anything takes 10,000 hours of practice.  This apparently holds true for academics and  musical pursuits as sports.  That's about 4 years of doing whatever for 7 hours a day, 365 days a year.  Along with that, perfect practice makes perfect.  Practicing the wrong stuff subtracts.  If you have innate talent, maybe less.  If you're a dunce or genetically enfeebled maybe more (or never).  But let's take it at face value.

 

The best progression example of a non-instructor or ski bum that I can think of is me. I lived in Switzerland for 5 years when I was in mid-30's.  When I went I was probably an "advanced skier."  I looked fine on the blues and could get down anything in the east but it was often ugly, I sucked at bumps and had virtually no experience with powder.  If it dumped a foot I was screwed.  Up to that point I skied with people a lot better than I was (New England college ski team types).  Their only advice was "Too icy?  Just ski the edges!"  For them that 5 foot wide strip of non-ice snow was just fine.  Skiing the edges seemed like an impossible dream.  But my starting point wasn't zero, I was probably at the 1500 hour mark. 

 

In Switzerland I skied about 40 days a year for the next 5 years.  That was broken into a 2 week block, a number of 3-day weekends and then successive weekends bringing total time up to about 3000 hours.   At that point I could handle any kind of snow conditions, ski bumps well on a good day and go pretty much anywhere on the mountain.  (Longer trips were usually Zermatt or Verbier, Andermatt for weekends).   It was probably 'expert' level skiing (whatever that means) but it didn't feel that way and I felt like I still had a long way to go.

 

At that point I plateaued.  Family and life intruded. I didn't ski at all for 4 years and then got into a 10 day a year pattern for about 10 years.  I simply couldn't ski often enough and hard enough to get better.  On top of that, it was simply impossible for me to get the level of conditioning necessary for the next level.  At that point it was also hard to find partners to ski with.  Most of the old crew had dropped out and my skiing was head and shoulders ahead of a younger crew who learned to carve on shaped skis (much like the guy in the vid).  Add another 700 hours that achieved nothing.

 

Then, about 6 years ago, life changed and I got back into it:  30+ days a year.  This was 2 weeks at AltaBird and successive weekends at Cannon (NH) or backcountry in the White Mountains.  I got AT gear and started working on conditioning.  If it snowed locally I'd do XC tours.  At this point I was in better shape than ever and therefore able to push harder.  Add another 1200 hours for about 5000 cumulative.  The improvement from this period was dramatic.  I won't do if-you-fall-you-die lines or huck cliffs.  Other than that it's game on.  My advice is now "ski the edges."  Yet, by the 10,000 hour dictum I'm only half way there!

 

It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.  I'm moving to SLC in the spring with the plan to bump up to 70+ days a year or until my knees disintegrate.

post #12 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by kletter1mann View Post
 

Yeah, not sure what the point is.  The guy in the video isn't much of an example of anything in my book.  With some effort almost anybody can be doing that on green groomers.  So what's next?  Odds are pretty good that he'll be doing the same thing in 5 years unless he skis more than a few days per year. 

 

It's said that mastery of pretty much anything takes 10,000 hours of practice.  This apparently holds true for academics and  musical pursuits as sports.  That's about 4 years of doing whatever for 7 hours a day, 365 days a year.  Along with that, perfect practice makes perfect.  Practicing the wrong stuff subtracts.  If you have innate talent, maybe less.  If you're a dunce or genetically enfeebled maybe more (or never).  But let's take it at face value.

 

The best progression example of a non-instructor or ski bum that I can think of is me. I lived in Switzerland for 5 years when I was in mid-30's.  When I went I was probably an "advanced skier."  I looked fine on the blues and could get down anything in the east but it was often ugly, I sucked at bumps and had virtually no experience with powder.  If it dumped a foot I was screwed.  Up to that point I skied with people a lot better than I was (New England college ski team types).  Their only advice was "Too icy?  Just ski the edges!"  For them that 5 foot wide strip of non-ice snow was just fine.  Skiing the edges seemed like an impossible dream.  But my starting point wasn't zero, I was probably at the 1500 hour mark. 

 

In Switzerland I skied about 40 days a year for the next 5 years.  That was broken into a 2 week block, a number of 3-day weekends and then successive weekends bringing total time up to about 3000 hours.   At that point I could handle any kind of snow conditions, ski bumps well on a good day and go pretty much anywhere on the mountain.  (Longer trips were usually Zermatt or Verbier, Andermatt for weekends).   It was probably 'expert' level skiing (whatever that means) but it didn't feel that way and I felt like I still had a long way to go.

 

At that point I plateaued.  Family and life intruded. I didn't ski at all for 4 years and then got into a 10 day a year pattern for about 10 years.  I simply couldn't ski often enough and hard enough to get better.  On top of that, it was simply impossible for me to get the level of conditioning necessary for the next level.  At that point it was also hard to find partners to ski with.  Most of the old crew had dropped out and my skiing was head and shoulders ahead of a younger crew who learned to carve on shaped skis (much like the guy in the vid).  Add another 700 hours that achieved nothing.

 

Then, about 6 years ago, life changed and I got back into it:  30+ days a year.  This was 2 weeks at AltaBird and successive weekends at Cannon (NH) or backcountry in the White Mountains.  I got AT gear and started working on conditioning.  If it snowed locally I'd do XC tours.  At this point I was in better shape than ever and therefore able to push harder.  Add another 1200 hours for about 5000 cumulative.  The improvement from this period was dramatic.  I won't do if-you-fall-you-die lines or huck cliffs.  Other than that it's game on.  My advice is now "ski the edges."  Yet, by the 10,000 hour dictum I'm only half way there!

 

It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.  I'm moving to SLC in the spring with the plan to bump up to 70+ days a year or until my knees disintegrate.

I'm not sure what DD223 showed is that trivial. I would surmise that most people, unless they have a rare natural talent or very good coaching in some way, are not able to ski like that anywhere. (I thought I could, but as I understand skiing more, I learn that I was wrong.) Mammoth, my home mountain, is not exactly a bunny hill populated by beginners, but I see few people other than the folks wearing funny spandex suits and team jackets skiing like that.

 

It's great that you are only half way after so much skiing; it will never get boring. But I do hope you are wrong about the number of days per season to roam the mountain with flair. Part of it is my potentially wishful thinking since I can only ski 10 days/yr in the foreseeable future, but I also believe that skiing is a very special, highly technical sport that with the right understanding and coaching a skier can make significant progress without the proverbial mileage usually required for the body to "click".

post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post
 

My resort has a first time skier program that gives free lessons for the first season. I had one 10YO girl for her 8th day. Our expert run is a step below the black runs out West, but based on her performance, she could have done an out West black run just fine. For once a week for 2 months, I'd call that unremarkable. I've had a few rock stars in my day who could have gone from first time to expert runs in 2 days. I've also seen plenty of intermediate skiers think they were experts because they could ski a black run without getting killed.

 

What's the point?

That is because the posted sign says "Experts Only" :yahoo:

 

I always smile with empathy and fond memories when my intermediate friends or relatives talk about skiing black and double black runs. In the first few seasons (in my early thirties), I measured my progress by the difficulty of the runs. I used to be able to get only 5 days per year (now 10). I always looked for "gnarlier" slopes to hack my way down - hehe, chasing the toute neige, tout terrain definition of expert skiing. I was unhappy if the "serious runs" were closed. Somewhere around year 5, I figured trying to ski more dynamically on mellow groomer may be more difficult and more fun. My skiing became a lot better and I became an expert at having fun on easy runs which is great from my perspective.

post #14 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckT View Post
 

I'm not sure what DD223 showed is that trivial. I would surmise that most people, unless they have a rare natural talent or very good coaching in some way, are not able to ski like that anywhere. (I thought I could, but as I understand skiing more, I learn that I was wrong.) Mammoth, my home mountain, is not exactly a bunny hill populated by beginners, but I see few people other than the folks wearing funny spandex suits and team jackets skiing like that.

 

It's great that you are only half way after so much skiing; it will never get boring. But I do hope you are wrong about the number of days per season to roam the mountain with flair. Part of it is my potentially wishful thinking since I can only ski 10 days/yr in the foreseeable future, but I also believe that skiing is a very special, highly technical sport that with the right understanding and coaching a skier can make significant progress without the proverbial mileage usually required for the body to "click".


Can't agree about DD223.   Sure, it looks good as far as it goes. And I don't mean to take away from his accomplishment, that's terrific in a couple years. If I just got there after a couple years I'm sure I'd be psyched.  But I see guys doing that all the time only to fall apart when it's steep or bumpy.  And those guys have been plateued at that level for years.  To me it's boring and monotonous.  

 

Let's be clear - "mastery" in the context of the 10000 hour thing is achieving world-class performance.  As anybody gets better at anything it becomes clear that the gap separating the good or the great from the best becomes increasingly hard to bridge.  That's why I can be a strong all-mountain skier but I'll never be a Glen Plake.

 

I'm also a rock climber and there are many useful analogies.  Obe Carrion, a close friend and one-time world bouldering champion used to say "I may be climbing 5.14's (triple black diamond extreme level) and you may just be climbing 5.4's (beginner).   But, if we're both pushing our limits it feels the same for both of us."  Word.  (BTW, watch the vid.  It's fantastic.)  So don't fret over your 10 days a year.  That's enough to stay psyched!

post #15 of 16

For a guy who has less than 40 or so days on snow (assuming Heluva is characterizing the skier in his video accurately) this is remarkable indeed. Moreover, he has developed outstanding fundamentals (which many life long skiers, including a substantial percentage posting on this site, don't approach) that will allow him to develop further and rapidly. Of course it's not "world-class performance". After 40 days? Hell, I thought I was demanding.

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

For a guy who has less than 40 or so days on snow (assuming Heluva is characterizing the skier in his video accurately) this is remarkable indeed. Moreover, he has developed outstanding fundamentals (which many life long skiers, including a substantial percentage posting on this site, don't approach) that will allow him to develop further and rapidly. Of course it's not "world-class performance". After 40 days? Hell, I thought I was demanding.


I read wrong or had a brain fart.  I thought he was skiing longer.  If that's just 40 days TOTAL it's pretty astounding.

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