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What Ever Happed to Moguls? - Page 3

post #61 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
 

 

FWIW, if you know anything about skiing bumps, you realize they're not that stressful on the joints unless your really hitting them hard and/or they're ice bumps.  If you can do unweighted squats without hurting your joints, you can do modest zippers in good snow conditions.  I'm in my 40s.

 

I'm in my 30's. I have a bad knee, and it doesn't take many squats for my knee to go out. Putting weight on it with any type of reasonable bend will generate pain after only a few reps. No zippers, modest of otherwise for me.  But I can ski bumps reasonably well by using the wide line instead of the zipper.

post #62 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldsbar View Post
FWIW, if you know anything about skiing bumps, you realize they're not that stressful on the joints unless your really hitting them hard and/or they're ice bumps.  If you can do unweighted squats without hurting your joints, you can do modest zippers in good snow conditions.  I'm in my 40s.

Very true.  I'll be 61 in 2 days and one knee has a blown mensicus from 2 bad kiteboarding jumps (now there's a sport the park rats can certainly relate to!!).  And skiing bumps is fine.

post #63 of 187

I agree a 100% with kletter1mann with our young people not learning how to link short radius slalom turns keeps alot of them from enjoying moguls.The younger skiers of today that are skiing the frontside of the mountain seem to ski fast and make longer and fewer turns and that skill set will not help them in the moguls.I have a ton of respect for the kids in the park and feel if we could just get them on a super quick,nimble slalom.......................Who am I kidding,that's not gonna happen,besides I believe the young lady's hangout at the park so I can't blame them.

post #64 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by viking9 View Post
 

I agree a 100% with kletter1mann with our young people not learning how to link short radius slalom turns keeps alot of them from enjoying moguls.The younger skiers of today that are skiing the frontside of the mountain seem to ski fast and make longer and fewer turns and that skill set will not help them in the moguls.I have a ton of respect for the kids in the park and feel if we could just get them on a super quick,nimble slalom.......................Who am I kidding,that's not gonna happen,besides I believe the young lady's hangout at the park so I can't blame them.

Park skiers are kind of like the Harlem Globe Trotters of basketball. Very entertaining, but different than Bird vs Magic. Apples/Oranges

post #65 of 187
Almost apples/oranges, except park skiers will be competing for gold medals this year. The globe trotters never competed for a world championship.
post #66 of 187

My "resort" never really has moguls. What am I to do?:o

post #67 of 187
I guess this is a similar debate to the half-pipe specialist snowboarders. Shawn White especially, boosted his snowboarding street cred with his trip and movie to AK to hit the steeps. Park skiers could boost their street cred by hitting some mogul runs, throw down some aerials and do a little backcountry too.
post #68 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok View Post

I guess this is a similar debate to the half-pipe specialist snowboarders. Shawn White especially, boosted his snowboarding street cred with his trip and movie to AK to hit the steeps. Park skiers could boost their street cred by hitting some mogul runs, throw down some aerials and do a little backcountry too.

 

The problem is that you are ignoring the fact that many of them do. Your typical freeskiing porn movie is about 30% in park, 30% urban skiing (which has never really done it for me but whatever) and 30% big mountain backcountry, with the same skiers getting filmed doing all three.

post #69 of 187
Which is why I basically gave up on ski porn.
post #70 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJskier164 View Post

On the subject of moguls, most of the places near me, if they have moguls at all, they are hard as a rock and badly shaped. The exception would be Upper Tunkhanock at Elk Mountain.  And the past few years, Camelback has been seeding man-made moguls on Lower Cleopatra, which is a green/blue level trail.  Since they are man-made, they have perfect spacing (at least to start LOL) so you can get a great rhythm without working hard, and it's a place for beginner mogul skiers to get their feet wet. There's a lot I don't like about Camelback, but I have to give management credit for doing this. 

 



I skiied Lower Cleopatra a bunch of times when I was at Camelback in December. It was only my second day of the season and I was doing some pretty decent zipper lines. I really appreciate trails like that one for those of us who don't get to ski as much as we'd like but want to improve our bump skiing. I even did it on non-bump skis (Fischer Progressor 9's).

I actually fancy myself a bump skier right now. I'll have to hit a steeper, icier run soon to put myself back in my place. Lol.
post #71 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

 

The problem is that you are ignoring the fact that many of them do. Your typical freeskiing porn movie is about 30% in park, 30% urban skiing (which has never really done it for me but whatever) and 30% big mountain backcountry, with the same skiers getting filmed doing all three.

 

Hey now, let's not let the facts get in the way of pretending park skiers don't know how to ski.  Surely they have no balance around the mountain and can only take off jumps while skiing switch at full speed out of sheer luck.

 

And remember, Candide was once considered one of those x-games / park rats until he started crushing big lines and won the FWT on his first try... curious what those folks think of him now.  Simon Dumont, also a park rat who "can't ski," put out a pretty impressive edit himself this year skiing big lines in the back country.

post #72 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

 

Hey now, let's not let the facts get in the way of pretending park skiers don't know how to ski.  Surely they have no balance around the mountain and can only take off jumps while skiing switch at full speed out of sheer luck.

 

And remember, Candide was once considered one of those x-games / park rats until he started crushing big lines and won the FWT on his first try... curious what those folks think of him now.  Simon Dumont, also a park rat who "can't ski," put out a pretty impressive edit himself this year skiing big lines in the back country.


Jon Olsson FTW!

 

I think the point was that the youngster jibbers don't have as much incentive to get the good, all around ski tools at an early age if they can navigate from feature to feature without them.  Having the balance and feel helps a lot when they do decide to become better all around skiers though.

 

The same phenomenon can be seen somewhat in skateboarding these days.  I've seen kids that can throw pretty sick tricks going 5 mph but not carve a bowl or bomb a hill at all.

post #73 of 187
I think the OP was talking about average folks on the local hills don't seem to be interested in moguls as much as they used to be, possibly drawn to the park. Seems the observation is that the average park rats either can't or don't want to learn to ski the fundamentals before hucking the jumps, and they look like Gapers getting to/from the park. I bet the pros that can throw down can also ski very well, as noted above, and I also bet that if you put all mountain skis on most park rats they can probably ski well too, they just don't want to, and park skis with rocker ski very differently than all mountain charging skis. I think it's all a factor of new technology, new techniques to ski that technology and a perception that old school moguls aren't "cool" anymore.

FWIW I plan to get several lessons this season to get more comfortable in the bumps, I want to be a better all around skier so I can find the best snow and not be limited to terrain. And my kids (5, 3, 4months) are learning the fundamentals of skiing before heading into the park.
post #74 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewok View Post

I think the OP was talking about average folks on the local hills don't seem to be interested in moguls as much as they used to be, possibly drawn to the park. Seems the observation is that the average park rats either can't or don't want to learn to ski the fundamentals before hucking the jumps, and they look like Gapers getting to/from the park. I bet the pros that can throw down can also ski very well, as noted above, and I also bet that if you put all mountain skis on most park rats they can probably ski well too, they just don't want to, and park skis with rocker ski very differently than all mountain charging skis. I think it's all a factor of new technology, new techniques to ski that technology and a perception that old school moguls aren't "cool" anymore.

FWIW I plan to get several lessons this season to get more comfortable in the bumps, I want to be a better all around skier so I can find the best snow and not be limited to terrain. And my kids (5, 3, 4months) are learning the fundamentals of skiing before heading into the park.


Most park ski's are either full camber, or have very little true rocker. Even rockered park ski's are going to have a good amount of camber under foot.

post #75 of 187

Everything Stranger wrote is true, and there is more.

 

First let me say the shapes of moguls in the picture at thread top is a thing of beauty.

 

Am not a fan of machine made bumps freestyle skiing though have respect for all the pro's that ski them because they all can smoke lines through natural bumps also.

 

Resorts mowing down mogul, especially on lower gradient runs, only leaves bumps on steep, narrow awkward impossible to groom areas. It is the lower gradient bumps fields a skier needs to learn to ski bumps on before taking it to steeper bumps.  In past decades such areas were all over ski areas.   So in effect, resorts have made it difficult for the newer younger generations of skiers from learning how to ski moguls.  Instead some of them do try skiing in the only moguls available, in the steeper areas, and quickly become disinterested due to the difficulty.

 

Do resorts know that is killing the learning process?  Of course!   There have always been legions of advanced skiers that HATED moguls even from the old days.   Even back then there were always fair  numbers of advanced skiers that never learned how to ski bumps.  Some simply because they didn't bother maybe because they preferred other fun while others because it was difficult.   And many of them worked in resorts.  Some were racers, some instructors, all manner of ski industry people.  Additionally some that could ski bumps got older, some got knee injuries keeping them away from such terrain, and some changed their everyday one-quiver skis to models that are not able to ski moguls.  And that especially means the new fat skis.   I have the Rossignol S7 but my everyday ski's are the the more traditional waisted Dynastar Twisters that are outstanding in bumps, groomed, and skier packed snow areas.

post #76 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post


Most park ski's are either full camber, or have very little true rocker. Even rockered park ski's are going to have a good amount of camber under foot.

I think you know what I meant. Most snowboards are cambered too but there are park specific boards with flat bases and rocker bases for spinning, and they are specific application tools, as are the park skis, mostly cambered but specific rocker models I'm sure. What I was getting at is if you observe a park rat skiing weird or with poor traditional technique they could just be on different equipment which can be used with different techniques. I know you can carve with a rockered ski but I bet it looks a little different.
post #77 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post

 

The problem is that you are ignoring the fact that many of them do. Your typical freeskiing porn movie is about 30% in park, 30% urban skiing (which has never really done it for me but whatever) and 30% big mountain backcountry, with the same skiers getting filmed doing all three.

Hey now, let's not let the facts get in the way of pretending park skiers don't know how to ski.  Surely they have no balance around the mountain and can only take off jumps while skiing switch at full speed out of sheer luck.

And remember, Candide was once considered one of those x-games / park rats until he started crushing big lines and won the FWT on his first try... curious what those folks think of him now.  Simon Dumont, also a park rat who "can't ski," put out a pretty impressive edit himself this year skiing big lines in the back country.
Yeah but your skewing things. Thovex, Dumont, Olsson did not start in the Park. Thovex was a French Moguls Champion at 14 yrs old! Grew up skiing the Alps.
Dumont's father was a competitive mogul skier and Simon did moguls at Gould. Olsson grew up racing and is back to it.
All are very impressive.
Would we say they are better skiers than say Seth Morrison? - that's a tough one. It gets into defining Skiing.

Now people are coming along that are say 90% time in the Park from an early age. Just like lots of racers cant do moguls well, many of these cant either That's the point someone made above.
post #78 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Yeah but your skewing things. Thovex, Dumont, Olsson did not start in the Park. Thovex was a French Moguls Champion at 14 yrs old! Grew up skiing the Alps.
Dumont's father was a competitive mogul skier and Simon did moguls at Gould. Olsson grew up racing and is back to it.
All are very impressive.
Would we say they are better skiers than say Seth Morrison? - that's a tough one. It gets into defining Skiing.

Now people are coming along that are say 90% time in the Park from an early age. Just like lots of racers cant do moguls well, many of these cant either That's the point someone made above.

 

Fine, good points.  But there's also a whole lot of BS lurking behind many of the comments in this thread and others on this forum (not referring to what the OP said, btw).  In general, I think many of those park skiers everyone says suck so bad are actually much better skiers elsewhere on the mountain than they are given credit for, and as you said in your other post, people are not properly taking into account the skis they have on their feet when doing park laps.  Definitely some insecurity at play IMO because those park rats might be doing something they can't.

post #79 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Yeah but your skewing things. Thovex, Dumont, Olsson did not start in the Park. Thovex was a French Moguls Champion at 14 yrs old! Grew up skiing the Alps.

Dumont's father was a competitive mogul skier and Simon did moguls at Gould. Olsson grew up racing and is back to it.

All are very impressive.

Would we say they are better skiers than say Seth Morrison? - that's a tough one. It gets into defining Skiing.


Now people are coming along that are say 90% time in the Park from an early age. Just like lots of racers cant do moguls well, many of these cant either That's the point someone made above.

Fine, good points.  But there's also a whole lot of BS lurking behind many of the comments in this thread and others on this forum (not referring to what the OP said, btw).  In general, I think many of those park skiers everyone says suck so bad are actually much better skiers elsewhere on the mountain than they are given credit for, and as you said in your other post, people are not properly taking into account the skis they have on their feet when doing park laps.  Definitely some insecurity at play IMO because those park rats might be doing something they can't.
Yeah I'd agree. One issue is if you're doing rails then you'll have no edges. That pretty much means on hard snow keeping your feet underneath you in technique.
I really wish mogul comps would change to something more interesting.
post #80 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by anachronism View Post
 

And yes, I agree that it seems mogul skiing has taken back burner. Odd because expert resort runs have moguls more often than they have fresh pow, and almost everyplace has mogul runs to ski.

 

Maybe its my foggy memory, but I also seem to remember generally friendlier moguls as a kid- they might have been huge, but they tended to have nice rounded sides. These days I seem to see more and more trapezoidal box moguls with every side having near vertical walls and sharp corners.

I strive to ski the zipperline wherever I go.  If it is nice bumps it is a nice zipperline.

 

In the real world, everyone thinks they are better than they really are, particularly in steeper terrain.  This leads more shall we say conservative skiers into runs where they press their edges into the poor snowpack for all they are worth, it is all they have between themselves and gravity to scrape and shave off that top layer of snow in a "controlled" turn.  I did this too, for decades at that, now I shudder to contemplate the body tension needed to bring those boards around for another "turn".

 

I ask many overedgemongers about it.  Control is the primary reason, yet I then ask are you controlling your ski or is the ski controlling you?  A good portion of these skiers' shoulders dutifully follow their tips making effective Z turns down a nice bump line carefully pressing their abused edges as forcefully as possible into the scraping action.

 

Eventually you find the verticle sided, fully braking "turns" the only way through.  

 

This makes a zipperline a chore or a dangerous proposition, it takes a true master to find the sinewave through the nasty Zs, I ususally see it as the fastest line through.

 

More snow usually fixes things up for a week or so.  In the meantime on the lift, I gently suggest that pressing P-Tex into the snow with edge engagement as a side effect will let them relax and see how easy it is to turn the other way with your feet underneath you.

 

This is a difficult proposition, getting skiers to let go and let gravity take them is akin to convincing the faithful to give up their God.:dunno

post #81 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by sofort99 View Post

Which is why I basically gave up on ski porn.


^^^This!!  me too.

post #82 of 187
So a reasonable thread has been Epic'd again with a load of reactionary bs about what is and isn't proper skiing, who lacks skillz, equipment is to blame etc etc.

Most resorts don't leave lots of moguls to develop because the paying punter doesn't like them. Simples. Unless you're blessed enough to be somewhere where it drops a foot every night you can usually find them if you want.
post #83 of 187

I think the OP' s thread was about a lack of mogul skiers,the lack of films where your sitting in the local restaurant and all they show are guy's making 60 mile an hour powder turns turns down an alaskan mtn. range or young people doing crazy tricks on stair railings;which is all great;but it doesn't do anything for us guy's in our 50's,60's or 70's who are riding the chairlift on saturday and sunday dying to see a 16 yearold come flying down under the chair making short,dynamic,athletic turns and slaying a bump section.Can you imagine if their were no snowboards,fat powderskis or parks for our young people to go to and they had to ski the frontside all day?Our young people today have fantastic skill and athletisism,to see them all on slalom ski's like we used to ski but instead of 195's they'd be  on 165's..........the chairlift rides would be like they used to be,watching guy's and gals tear up the bumps all day.I don't think anyone has been disrespectful to any type of skier or style in this thread,alot of us were teenagers in the 70's and in our twenty's in the 80's because thats all we had to ski back then of course their were alot more and better frontside skiers.But I think to us older guy's we know that we have basically lost a whole generation of frontside and mogul skiers due to what I have mentioned earlier,and i'm sure people will tell me that at their local mtn I should see such and such but I just don't see any driving up with mom and dad for the weekend.I also don't have a problem disscusing reasons for this either and solutions;I have a big problem with teaching 16 year olds how to carve as the best way to make a turn;that's like taking him fishing and instead of a spinning reel,two pound test and a worm,we hand him a 9' flyrod and tell him to catch fish!!

post #84 of 187

Uncanny timing of this thread... finally just got this published in SAM (look for it in January print edition also): http://www.saminfo.com/article/speakout-where-are-all-moguls

post #85 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
 

Uncanny timing of this thread... finally just got this published in SAM (look for it in January print edition also): http://www.saminfo.com/article/speakout-where-are-all-moguls

"In addition, as the Boomer generation has aged, some have given up on the adventure and adrenaline aspects of skiing."  I don't understand what this has to do with moguls; I never found any connection between mogul skiing and adrenaline.  True, I avoided moguls when I could in the 1980s, but for the opposite reason; they slowed me down and speed produced adrenaline.  I also swam against the flow in the 80s (and now too), preferring Black Sabbath to Disco.  I guess I'm just different. 

post #86 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 

"In addition, as the Boomer generation has aged, some have given up on the adventure and adrenaline aspects of skiing."  I don't understand what this has to do with moguls; I never found any connection between mogul skiing and adrenaline.  True, I avoided moguls when I could in the 1980s, but for the opposite reason; they slowed me down and speed produced adrenaline.  I also swam against the flow in the 80s (and now too), preferring Black Sabbath to Disco.  I guess I'm just different. 

 

I have seen some of these former bumpers who competed at USSA level. They can rip the line so fast its f'ng amazing, youtube vids or any vids for that matter is rather deceptive in speed. 

post #87 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

Yeah but your skewing things. Thovex, Dumont, Olsson did not start in the Park. Thovex was a French Moguls Champion at 14 yrs old! Grew up skiing the Alps.
Dumont's father was a competitive mogul skier and Simon did moguls at Gould. Olsson grew up racing and is back to it.
All are very impressive.
Would we say they are better skiers than say Seth Morrison? - that's a tough one. It gets into defining Skiing.

Now people are coming along that are say 90% time in the Park from an early age. Just like lots of racers cant do moguls well, many of these cant either That's the point someone made above.

Seth Morrison has a race background as well... Just say'in, as they say.
post #88 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post


Yeah but your skewing things. Thovex, Dumont, Olsson did not start in the Park. Thovex was a French Moguls Champion at 14 yrs old! Grew up skiing the Alps.
Dumont's father was a competitive mogul skier and Simon did moguls at Gould. Olsson grew up racing and is back to it.
All are very impressive.
Would we say they are better skiers than say Seth Morrison? - that's a tough one. It gets into defining Skiing.

Now people are coming along that are say 90% time in the Park from an early age. Just like lots of racers cant do moguls well, many of these cant either That's the point someone made above.

 

While it is true at times that many racers don't ski moguls well that is because of time in the moguls.  When I was in college I worked with a bunch of people that were racers that had never skied bumps.  They started coming to Killington with us to ski and within weeks were ripping through the bumps.  I can't comment on if someone who skis the park can learn quickly to be a good bump skier but I do know a good slalom racer can learn to ski bumps well very quickly.

post #89 of 187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post

  I also swam against the flow in the 80s (and now too), preferring Black Sabbath to Disco.  I guess I'm just different. 

Disco was more of a 70's thing, and so was Black Sabbath for that matter. Ozzy Osborne was doing solo albums by 1980 after the rest of band got tired of his drug use and replaced him with Ronnie James Dio, who had previously been with Rainbow (Ritchie Blackmore, previously with Deep Purple).
post #90 of 187
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BushMogulMaster View Post
 

Uncanny timing of this thread... finally just got this published in SAM (look for it in January print edition also): http://www.saminfo.com/article/speakout-where-are-all-moguls

Exellent article.  I must admit my home mountain Purgatory at Durango Mountain has embraced the practice of grooming only half of a run resulting in numerous "low angle/small bump" type runs.

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