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short carving turn in somewhat different style - Page 4

post #91 of 107

Bob, thanks for explanation.  I understand it/you now, even if I'm not quite discriminating enough to see it.

tch

post #92 of 107
Thanks for returning some perspective and horse sense to the thread.
post #93 of 107

Thanks for your excellent postings Bob. I have a few comments.

 

I like the definition that rates cross under and over as the same thing. Somehow cross under has become synonymous with OLF and cross under with ILE. IMO retraction turns or maybe more correct retraction transitions where the legs move under a stable upper body are both cross under and cross over. Depends on what you use for reference. ILE is IMO vaulting over. But very seldom you have a pure this or that. Its because we have two legs and depending on how we distribute our weight we have an endless combination of extending, flexing, vaulting, ILE, OLR and cross under and cross over.

 

One detail that has caused arguments beyond reason is the extension of the inside leg after the transition when using OLR. Same as the extension at the end of the turn also during an OLR transition. The way you explain it using this two extension concept is right on the mark. There are cases where there would be no extension of the inside leg at the end of a turn but skiers that always resort to this technique because they know nothing else end up on the toilet seat if transition is delayed or if they need to end up in a traverse for some reason. However, true experts such as WC skiers are no one trick ponies. Retraction turns are used only when linking turns and turn rebound fuels the transition. I must agree that the Koreans should extend where appropriate and not resort to always flexing through transition. This is the reason they end up folding their upper body so much forwards. To stay balanced. They need to compensate for ending up in the back seat. But they rip off course. Especially in bumps and short non carved turns.

 

On the topic of rotary.... not sure I understand PSIA definitions.... according to our standards "rotary" refers to many things. So its impossible to condemn rotary as purely negative. The most common use is in the concept of "counter". Also know as "counter rotation". A good and healthy move. Its counterpart "rotation" on the other hand is the opposite and considered bad even if there is a hint of it in most experts skiing. Particularly in powder and crud. It has to do with directing mass at initiation. And lately in GS racing where skiers are forced to pivot their skis more than before at turn initiation. Its naturally closely coupled to extension and flexion. Femur rotation is another context where the word rotation is being used. However, its important to understand the difference between femur rotation when skiing edge locked carving like the Koreans in their short turn clips and bump skiers skiing the zipper line. This should be clear to every ski instructor or advanced skier.

post #94 of 107

Bob,

 

I posted something regarding pivot slips in the thread on part-time instructor perks after someone asserted that there was no relationship between the carve and the pivot slip. It sounds a little like some of your statements regarding the pivot slip. As it was the next-to-last post in the thread, it seems to have contributed to ending the thread.

 

You may wish to review it and offer corrections. Or not.

 

Here's the link: http://www.epicski.com/t/121645/part-time-ski-instructor-perks/30#post_1665282

post #95 of 107

Since there has been a fair amount if discussion about the Korean Interski Team's technique in short radius turns, I thought it might be illuminating to post the following video of them.  About 1/3 of the way through, their coach talks about their technique in pretty good English.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHERrKCTq5g

 

I don' think that anyone who watches this video will have any doubts about their athleticism and technical prowess.  This video is also of higher quality than the other one, so more of what they are doing is visible.

 

Surfdog

post #96 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post

 

I don' think that anyone who watches this video will have any doubts about their athleticism and technical prowess.  This video is also of higher quality than the other one, so more of what they are doing is visible.

 

Surfdog

It seemed to me that the way they were skiing in the video (with the body not turning much), was a result of the specific task they were doing, and in no way was representative of what they could do if they wanted too.  If the rules are make your skis stay in a 4 m lane to score top points, then that's what the that's what they do.

post #97 of 107

And how could I have forgot to add this, the 28th Korea Technical Ski Contest - final short turn:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UrhJLGBS4Q

 

This was fun to watch,  :popcorn  but I was so tired after it finished that I had to go lay down. 

 

Surfdog

post #98 of 107

Not sure what point you are trying to make, Ghost.

 

Surfdog

post #99 of 107

Point was there was never any doubt as to the abilities of the Koreans implied by my expressed preference for another type of short turn, even though it may have been interpreted as such.

post #100 of 107

More Koreans skiing, they have a whole bunch of tips about their technical development but not useful for me as I don't understand Korean, anyone that does should check it out.

 

post #101 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdog View Post
 

Since there has been a fair amount if discussion about the Korean Interski Team's technique in short radius turns, I thought it might be illuminating to post the following video of them.  About 1/3 of the way through, their coach talks about their technique in pretty good English.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHERrKCTq5g

 

I don' think that anyone who watches this video will have any doubts about their athleticism and technical prowess.  This video is also of higher quality than the other one, so more of what they are doing is visible.

 

Surfdog

 

Great video. And the coach talking about their technique was worth listening to. Thanks for posting. I need to go to Korea and ski with these guys.

post #102 of 107
I'm starting to see a pattern from the video compilation on this thread...

I don't see much of decent carving at all. I'm sure they are capable of making dynamic carved turns, but why not? It's either very short turns or long park & ride turns.
post #103 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by nochaser View Post

I'm starting to see a pattern from the video compilation on this thread...

I don't see much of decent carving at all. I'm sure they are capable of making dynamic carved turns, but why not? It's either very short turns or long park & ride turns.

 

In order to make turns look dynamic I think that there should be movement all the time. So instead of squatting down through the transition doing nothing else it looks a lot more dynamic and functional if they lift their CoM up by extending through the transition. In short turns they don't need to do this because their feet move, retract and extend through the transition.

post #104 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

Yea, I for one, am not horribly impressed by RR turns where the CoM is just moving down the hill and the skis are swiveling back and forth cross under style.  That is pretty easy to do with short radius skis and a bit of retraction timing.  its not hard.  

 
Did you mean to imply you can make the same turns at the same speed as shown in video of the Korean tech comps?
post #105 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by skiatansky View Post

It's definitely not easy.
post #106 of 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by jthski View Post

More Koreans skiing, they have a whole bunch of tips about their technical development but not useful for me as I don't understand Korean, anyone that does should check it out.



Started another thread, but it's an interesting tech comparison:

http://www.dartfish.tv/Player.aspx?CR=p1490c81240m1771517&CL=1
post #107 of 107

One thing that nobody has mentioned yet is the difference in terrain/snow conditions. I started a thread last year comparing the Japanese style to other styles. I got a response from markojp below which I think is spot on:

 

Quote:

The interesting thing that might be a large influence in the 'divergence' of styles is typical terrain. I've skied many different places in Japan including a lot of touring. There really isn't any inbounds terrain equivalent in Japan to the percentage of steep, ungroomed terrain you find in N. America. We ski a ton more crud and very steep terrain.

 

Asians also have a cultural liking for art and form. Though the ski styles in technical competitions may not look very functional, it is what Koreans and Japanese believe is the "prettiest."  The average Japanese skier may try to mimic the form displayed in technical ski competition which often results in bad functional skiing (myself included). In fact, SAJ (Ski Association of Japan) has changed their teaching style starting this year and added a new criteria to their level I ski test to include pivot slips. 

 

Below is a link to the thread I started last year, if anyone is interested.

http://www.epicski.com/t/119745/different-countries-different-skiing-styles-ma-welcome

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