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Thoughts on managing edge burn

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 

I've been pondering my options, and decided it was time to ask the experts! 

 

Some background:

I have two pairs of new Fischer's (SC's & RC's) that I'm planning to use for some beer league racing. Both skis were hot boxed (raceskis.com - Swix MB88 Moly Flouro base wax saturation 4 hour cycles @ 130 Deg. F) I'm preparing each pair with fresh wax the night before, and typically ski all day (5-6 hrs) on manmade snow.  To keep it simple, I'm sticking with the Dominator system. I'm using Zoom Graphite as my everyday / training wax and Race Zoom / Bullet as a race day base wax. I'll probably get into the overlays, but that's a topic for another post.   Also, I hot scrap with Renew Graphite and brush regularly, brass then blue nylon. I've been considering adding the fine steel, but I'm not sure it would make that much of a difference for a Nastar type GS. 

 

Here's what I've noticed:

Regardless of temperature (I've seen the same thing when it's been 15, and when it's been 40), it looks like I'm getting edge burn.  From about two inches forward of the binding plate to maybe an inch behind, the first centimeter or so inside of each edge looks grayish at the end of the day.  The rest of the ski looks great.  I'm primarily concerned with maintaining the long term performance of the skis, and ensuring the bases stay flat and fast.  I recognize that this is probably pretty normal, but I thought the hotbox would have helped the skis hold the wax longer.  I know some shops use a different approach and include hard waxes in the hotbox cycle.

 

What I've considered: 

I've heard of crayoning in a harder wax in along the edge to prevent the base burn (prior to applying the wax of the day).  The question I have is, will using the Dominator Bullet (New Snow) be enough, of should I look into the Dominator Psycho?  If I go with too cold/hard a wax along the edges on race day will this impede performance, or will the harder wax still improve performance?   I should mention I'm not committed to only using Dominator.  So, if there's another wax that works well with the Zoom waxes let me know.  I look forward to your suggestions regarding edge burn, and any other thoughts on economical beer league race prep.  

 

Thanks! 

Meno

post #2 of 16

Jacques got a video on dat.

Jacques got a video on everything you need to know about tuning.

Then, Zenny, etc..........

There is more wax information on this site than oil in Texas.

post #3 of 16
It might not be burn it might be wax. Can you scrape it off with a fingernail? Can you brush it out?
post #4 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

It might not be burn it might be wax. Can you scrape it off with a fingernail? Can you brush it out?

Nope, it definitely looks like a dry strip next to the edge rather than excess wax.  I always make several passes with the brass brush and blue nylon after each waxing (and a fibertex in between) so there's no excess wax on the ski or left in the base structure.  However, I'm not sure if I could tell the difference between "edge burn" and just excess wax loss.  Hitting it with the brass brush after skiing (but before rewaxing) does remove some apparent oxidation, but it still looks grayish and dried out.  

 

I'm planning to crayon in the Dominator Bullet along the edges and see if it makes a difference.  Most of the advice I've seen on handling base burn has involved extreme cold waxes.  I don't own any, so I'll try what I've got and see what happens.  


Edited by Meno Goslowski - 12/28/13 at 6:54pm
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakine View Post
 

Jacques got a video on dat.

Jacques got a video on everything you need to know about tuning.

Then, Zenny, etc..........

There is more wax information on this site than oil in Texas.

Thanks for the suggestions. Yeah, I've seen a few of Jacques videos. Very informative stuff!  I did look at several forum posts related to edge burn prior to posting.  Consensus is crayon in a harder wax along the edges.  My main reasons for posting are:

 

a) My understanding is edge burn typically only occurs under colder hard snow conditions.  So is what I'm seeing edge burn or just wax loss, and what's the difference?

 

b) Most of what I've read in the forums involves extreme cold waxes.  I'm still new to layering multiple waxes, so the idea of using a extreme cold wax under a relatively soft wax seems a little counterintuitive.  Won't there be a tradeoff in performance once the softer wax wears away?

post #6 of 16
You're only worrying about the time impact for two runs for these races, right? How much could it wear off with two runs? Just don't put in a whole day of skiing first.
post #7 of 16

I iron on a strip of powdered LF3 along the edges in the pressure zone of the ski to combat this.

Cold snow is very abrasive and cold machine snow is even more so.

Edges and the high pressure zone next to them take a beating in arctic conditions when there is no lube water in the snow.

post #8 of 16
Very familiar with the phenomenon, but no magic answers.

Would be worth asking @Dominator Tom.

Seems like you're not starting the day with with a deep enough / durable enough set of wax layers to endure the day. Therefore you are starting from scratch each time. You need to do something different to get yourself out of the hole. I notice that once I get a good foundation going, I no longer get the edge burn as long as I stay on top of it, waxing for each outing. But how to get there is the question.

My amateur inclination would be to lay off the hot scrapes for a while. You WANT build-up in this situation, I'd think. After each ski day, brush thoroughly with a metal brush. Then do two cycles of a med-hard hc wax before the wax of the day, if that is different. Pros, feel free to countermand.
post #9 of 16

Meno,

As mentioned, you might want to contact Dom Tom.  Also, when I read the info on Dominators site, I remember something about the wax you use as your first layer.  If you are Hot Scraping with Renew, which is fine for a hot scrape, but you don't get the full benefit of Renew and that is to "hold" on to the harder waxes.  It's something like - softer waxes aren't as durable or protective but have great adhesion and the harder waxes have great durability but not adhesion (Don't quote me but I think that is right).  Do a couple cycles of hot waxing with renew and letting the skis sit for the required time to cure (I think it is 1.5 hours) before scraping.  Scrape and brush after each application.  Then add the hard waxes.

 

You can also do a search on this site for more info on Dominators wax.  I use Dominator too and learned the hard way what you are seeing now.

 

Hope this helps,

Ken

post #10 of 16

@ Meno Goslowski

 

You are raising a number of issues, I will comment on them one at a time:

 

“Both skis were hot boxed (raceskis.com - Swix MB88 Moly Flouro base wax saturation 4 hour cycles @ 130 Deg. F “)

 

<It is not a good idea to use a fluorinated base prep wax on a new or newly ground base. The fluoro additive prevents deep absorption by the hydrocarbon into the base and the goal with a new base is to saturate it deeply with as much hydrocarbon as possible as this creates a foundation for the hard waxes to bond to.>

 

“I'm using Zoom Graphite as my everyday / training wax and Race Zoom / Bullet as a race day base wax” 

 

<Excellent choice!>

 

I’ve been considering adding the fine steel …“

<A fine steel brush will be very beneficial, especially for base prep and for brushing out hard waxes, like the Bullet you have on hand.>

 

“Regardless of temperature (I've seen the same thing when it's been 15, and when it's been 40), it looks like I'm getting edge burn.  From about two inches forward of the binding plate to maybe an inch behind, the first centimeter or so inside of each edge looks grayish at the end of the day. “ 

 

<This is most definitely edge burn, a problem we see more and more frequently as bases on production skis seem to be getting softer every year. Your skis were not adequately saturated by the fluoro base prep and the inside edge is a high friction area. This is a problem that requires a more systematic approach than just waxing harder, the base must first be free of fuzz, then re-saturated with a soft, deep penetrating hydrocarbon and adapted for hard snow (with hard waxes) near the edges.>

 

I know some shops use a different approach and include hard waxes in the hotbox cycle.

 

<Yes they do, and it is a good idea if you want to avoid edge burn.>

 

“The question I have is, will using the Dominator Bullet (New Snow) be enough, of should I look into the Dominator Psycho? “

 

<This depends on the snow conditions as well as the softness of your base and how well it retains wax. Psycho will provide better protection against burn, but on warmer snows may feel a bit slow on edge. My suggestion is to use Bullet and see if the problem goes away. If it does not, the Psycho New Snow will almost definitely correct the situation.>

 

“a) My understanding is edge burn typically only occurs under colder hard snow conditions.“

 

<This is not always the case. Frozen snow can be quite abrasive, even at warmer temperatures; so can chemically fertilized snow. The presence of impurities such as salts from snow making and pollen can also make snow abrasive, regardless of temperature.>

 

“b) Most of what I've read in the forums involves extreme cold waxes.  I'm still new to layering multiple waxes, so the idea of using an extreme cold wax under a relatively soft wax seems a little counter intuitive.  Won't there be a tradeoff in performance once the softer wax wears away?”

 

<Layering hot waxes is somewhat of a myth, waxes mix with each other as soon as they are melted together. Once the wax components are melted, the harder wax components stay near the surface and the softer waxes penetrate deeper into the base, so you have a gradient with the softer waxes nearer the core and the harder waxes nearer the surface.>

 

 

<<This is how I suggest you proceed:>>

 

Remove the edge burn fuzz with a metal scraper or by buffing with Scotchbrite.

Hot scrape with Renew Graphite, brush well.

Iron in Renew Graphite, wait for 15 minutes to half hour, scrape and brush well; do this twice.

Sprinkle one inch strips of Psycho New Snow near the edges, iron it in, then wait 5-10 minutes, scrape and brush. If you don’t have Psycho, any of the Bullets may be an adequate substitute.

Wax the entire ski with Bullet or Race Bullet, wait for half hour, scrape and brush. If you expect the temps to be in the upper 20’s or warmer, crayon Bullet near the edges and Graphite Zoom on the rest of the base. If you expect colder snow the skis are ready to ski.

 

Go out and ski and take a brush with you; brush and check the condition of the skis a couple of times during the day. If edge burn still appears, you will need to use Psycho near the edges every time you wax for this aggressive type of snow. We see this happen very often with new skis, the good news is that this treatment takes care of the problem. You might also consider carrying a bar of Rocket with you and rubbing on a coat during the day to help protect the base from burn.

 

Remember this, if you only wax a super-hard wax on a non-waxed, dry base, the hard wax does not bond well to the ski base and will scrub off quickly leaving the base venerable to burn. It is a vital step to take a few minutes to iron in a base prep and ReNew is the best choice for this. The base prep adheres to the base and then the hard wax -- like Psyco or Bullet -- bonds to the base prep resulting in less base burn and better overall wax durability.

 

visit: www.dominatorwax.com for more detailed information.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Tom

post #11 of 16

Sound advice from Dom Tom.  Other alternative, use a strip of holmenkol Ultra down each edge, crayoned or dripped and ironed, your choice.  Works well and easier than powders

post #12 of 16

no offence but, I prefer to use swix in preventative edge burn prep, and swix, toko, maplus in cold temp glide layers.  jmo

post #13 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chenzo View Post

no offence but, I prefer to use swix in preventative edge burn prep, and swix, toko, maplus in cold temp glide layers.  jmo

I'm deeply offended chenzo! biggrin.gif Happy new year!
post #14 of 16
Haha. HNY everyone!
post #15 of 16

Meno,

 

Did you try any of these tips?  I have been working w/a tuner to try and get down the process of race-hardening a ski base. Its where you use a colder wax like Swix CH4 and apply it to the base (after some prep wax like Dominator Renew, Briko Race Soft or similar) at an even higher temp then normal in a controlled method to harden the base.  I don't completely understand the process as of yet, but I am hoping to have a basic understanding and some practice with it before next season.

 

Look forward to hearing if any particular method improved your base edges.

post #16 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScotsSkier View Post

Sound advice from Dom Tom.  Other alternative, use a strip of holmenkol Ultra down each edge, crayoned or dripped and ironed, your choice.  Works well and easier than powders

I have been crayoning ultra down the base edge of all my skis this season prior to waxing and I have had zero issues with base burn, despite having a lot of manmade snow underfoot this year and with training/ racing. Easiest way to go
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