or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Sir Francis Bacon & Mr Pollards Opus mounting / Lines big screw-up?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Sir Francis Bacon & Mr Pollards Opus mounting / Lines big screw-up?

post #1 of 20
Thread Starter 

In October of 2011, my son got a pair of SFB 178s. There was only one mounting line on the ski, so we had his bindings mounted at that. At the end of that season, I was tired of not being able to keep up with him in the pow with my Atomic Sugar Daddys, so I went out and got some 178 Opus' which I enjoy greatly (the only 185s available at the time were $300 more which is why I got the 178s). The recommended mounting point was the same on both skis, fairly far forward. I don't ski backwards much, and don't spend much (if any) time in the park. I spent a lot of time researching if I should mount behind the "recommended" mounting line or not. Against the advise of a very knowledgeable friend (who will never let me hear the end of it when he reads this) I ended up mounting on the "recommended" line, mainly because I could find no one that could tell me they had mounted farther back and all was good. 

 

I was just in REI and saw this years SFBs, which are the same ski as the 11/12s, but they have these mounting options/points:

 

(These are 178s also) When I came home and measured my sons SFBs, his "recommended" line that we mounted his boots (mine also) at is 33 1/4... 2 years ago, everybody said mount there, including where we bought the skis & bindings, now it comes out that Eric's (who loves to ski backwards) line is 2 cm back and the "standard" recommended mounting point is 6 cm back. 

 

Obviously, if I had known the skis designer recommended 2 cm back, I wouldn't have had them mounted where I did. I wonder how many others have their bindings mounted incorrectly, or at least farther forward than necessary. I am assuming that this is the same with the Opus' but REI didn't have any in stock, and the online pictures that I can find, don't show the mounting points for the 13/14 Opus. My son skis backward a lot and loves his SFBs to death, so I probably won't have his remounted, but the 178s were a bit short for me to start, so I will definitely be getting my bindings moved 2-6 cm back. This also explains some of the tip dive issues I have had with my Opus'

 

The lack of correct mounting info on the 11/12 and 12/13s SBFs & Opus(?) seams like a big blunder on Lines part. I need confirmation that this new mounting information is the same on the 13/14 Opus'. Any one have any thoughts or insight on this?

 

Thanks,

Brad


Edited by FB User (Private) - 12/29/13 at 5:21pm
post #2 of 20

I'm pretty postive the "Eric's choice" line on the 13/14 is the same mount point as the recommended line the past few years. Center line is just that... the true center.  I've had mine (12/13 SFB and Opus) both mounted at the recommended line (ie "Eric's choice") and wouldn't change them... I have no issues with tip dive.

post #3 of 20
Thread Starter 

Found a picture of this years Opus with what looks like the same markings as the current SFBs, I think I will be going 6 cm back. 


Edited by FB User (Private) - 12/29/13 at 5:20pm
post #4 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tam View Post
 

I'm pretty postive the "Eric's choice" line on the 13/14 is the same mount point as the recommended line the past few years. Center line is just that... the true center.  I've had mine (12/13 SFB and Opus) both mounted at the recommended line (ie "Eric's choice") and wouldn't change them... I have no issues with tip dive.

I measured it and the "recommended" line of the 11/12s is exactly the same as the "center" line of the 13/14. Maybe the 12/13s were different. 

post #5 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Hall View Post
 

I measured it and the "recommended" line of the 11/12s is exactly the same as the "center" line of the 13/14.

 

Now measure from the tip to the center point and I bet you'll see that it's more than 33 1/4. The binding is just messing up your measurement. The line has always been -2.

post #6 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mclaughh View Post
 

 

Now measure from the tip to the center point and I bet you'll see that it's more than 33 1/4. The binding is just messing up your measurement. The line has always been -2.

That wouldn't really prove anything, I already know that the "center" mark,or whatever it is labeled, isn't actually the center of the ski, I can verify that by measuring the bottom of the ski. What is relevant is that the 2 lines measure the same from the base up, I am smart enough to measure it next to the binding, it isn't messing up my measurement. 

post #7 of 20
Thread Starter 

I just pulled out my Opus, the only marking says "Mid-sole" and it is 33&1/4 inch up from the bottom. I had heard 2 cm back in the past also, I assumed (as did every one else I talked to) that the "Midsole" mark was the proper place and was 2 cm back.  I think that is where the confusion came from. Is the "Midsole" mark the mounting point or the point you are supposed to mount 2 cm back from? I just measured and the "center" or "Midsole" mark is not center, it is about 2 cm back from the true center.

 

If the "Center" or "Midsole" mark is actually supposed to be true center, and it is not, then everything gets very confusing. 


Edited by FB User (Private) - 12/29/13 at 5:20pm
post #8 of 20
IIRC... be aware that Line has a tech note out on a couple of this year's models that were mismarked wrt the mount points. Also IIRC this applies to the Opus and SFB. Maybe a tech can weigh in to confirm/deny my recollection... I certainly would not drill one of these skis without triple checking this...
post #9 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post

IIRC... be aware that Line has a tech note out on a couple of this year's models that were mismarked wrt the mount points. Also IIRC this applies to the Opus and SFB. Maybe a tech can weigh in to confirm/deny my recollection... I certainly would not drill one of these skis without triple checking this...

 

That would make sense, being as the 13/14 "Center" mark (as well as the 11/12 "midsole" mark) is 2 cm back from true center. That suggests the 11/12s "midsole" mark is the correct "Eric's choice" placement and that these markings on the 13/14 are all 2 cm farther back than they should be. 

 

If that is true, I can move mine back 4 cm and be on the "recommended" line. That would work very well for me. Having a Line published mounting point, farther back than "Eric's line", is what I was looking for when I 1st had them mounted.

 

I have sent an email to Line tech support, I will see what they say and report it back here.


Edited by FB User (Private) - 12/29/13 at 5:19pm
post #10 of 20

Mounting lines on 2014 SFB 190s. 

 

Using tape measure, relative to the true geometric center of the ski, the "CENTER" line is 2 cm behind true center, the "ERIC'S CHOICE" line is another 2 cm back, and the "RECOMMENDED" line is another 4 cm back.

 

So, relative to TRUE center:

 

"CENTER"  =  - 2 cm

"ERIC"  =  - 4 cm

"RECOMMENDED"  =  - 8 cm

 

I don't have older model to measure and compare.  When other posts say "2 cm behind center", I can't tell if they mean 2 cm behind true center that they measured, or if they mean 2 cm behind a mark labeled "center", which they may or may not have measured, and which may or may not have been a true center.  Anybody have a definitive answer?

 

Haven't mounted yet, wanted to measure first to know what I was getting. The physical length of the ski is about 187.5 cm.

post #11 of 20

The "midsole" mark on a non-symmetrical twin (a ski that isn't a true twin, meaning that the tip measurement is larger than the tail) is almost always the center of the side cut, not the center of the ski.  The "center" mark on a true twin, like K2's Domain for instance, is the true center of the ski AND the sidecut, as the ski is symmetrical (the ski is identical when measured from true center to the tip, as well as when measured from true center to the tail).  In the case of the Opus (even though it's a non-symmetrical twin) the center mark should be the actual center of the ski (I know this is confusing, but blame Line/K2). The "recommended midsole" mark on the Opus is the center of the sidecut, where you should mount if you want the most out of the designed sidecut of the ski.  Any movement forward or back from this, in theory, will result in poorer turning ability of the ski, as you're negating the sidecut as you move away from the sidecut center.

 

In my experience as a tech and shop manager, it's easier to work out these measurements in cm or mm for closer fine tuning.  I use a helmet measuring tape to do this, as it's more pliable than a standard tape measure. 

 

The comment about Line's tech note concerning the mislabeling of the skis is correct.  Not all of Line's skis have been mislabeled, but the Opus' from this year are on the list.  If you're unsure whether your ski has been mislabeled, stand them up next to each other and flip one upside down, the center marks should match up closely, it will be obvious if they don't, we've run into 5 or 6 pair so far that are mislabeled and it's easy to see using this test.

 

If a ski only has one indicator mark that says "midsole", then this is the usually the sidecut center, and where a mounting jig should line up.  Most skis meant for freestyle/freeride/jib will have several measurements, but front side or touring skis will usually only have a "midsole" mark, a line, or an arrow indicating where to center the mounting jig before drilling/tapping/installing the binding. 

 

So to answer your question (I think)... if you're NOT intending on riding switch (skiing backwards) often, then mount at the "recommended midsole" indicator, this will allow you the most effective use of the sidecut of the ski.  Hope this helps.

post #12 of 20

Very helpful, thanks.  Is the sidecut center typically also the camber center for skis that have camber?

post #13 of 20

That's a good question...my answer would be a really strong maybe.  Haha, I actually had to go grab a couple pairs of skis and look at them to answer this.  It seems that the highest point of camber on a camber only ski is at sidecut center.  The highest point on a cambered ski with a rockered tip is slightly in front of sidecut center.  On my Hell and Back's for instance, the highest point of camber is about where the back screws are on the toe of my binding.  This is also true on my Bondifides.  I have an older pair of Nordica Jet Fuels (no rocker) and the highest point of camber on those is at the midsole point of the binding, which is the sidecut center for that ski.  My wife has an older K2 Sweet Luv in the closet with no rocker and the highest point of camber on that is also directly above the midsole mark, which again would be sidecut center.  She currently rides an Atomic Affinity Storm which has some tip rocker and the highest point of camber on that one is slightly in front of sidecut center.  Maybe someone with more ski design background can jump in on this one, as I'm only able to go off of what I'm seeing here in the shop and at home, but everything I'm seeing is going along with what I've stated so far.  

post #14 of 20

Measuring for mounting site isn't as straightforward as it might seem.  I had previously measured on the top sheet, using a strait line pull from the tip/tail with a regular metal retractible tape. It seemed to make sense, because you could easily mark for drilling.

 

However, after reading the Line/K2 spec sheet, measurements are actually intended to be along the base (including the curves).  This gives a longer measurement than the straight pull. It requires a cloth tape measure, and you're measuring along the bottom of the ski.  If you don't do it this way, the measurement will be off by 10-20 mm.

 

For my 190 Bacons, the spec sheet puts the "center" (i.e. sidecut center) at 933 mm from the tail.  If you measure along the base, this is exactly where the mark is on the ski graphic.  The measurement is on the bottom, so you have to have a way to check that spot on the top.

 

I suppose that measuring along the curve of the ski makes sense from a design/production perspective.  Note that when measuring this way, the length of the ski is almost exactly 1900 mm. 

 

post #15 of 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by debidoson View Post
 

Measuring for mounting site isn't as straightforward as it might seem.  I had previously measured on the top sheet, using a strait line pull from the tip/tail with a regular metal retractible tape. It seemed to make sense, because you could easily mark for drilling.

 

However, after reading the Line/K2 spec sheet, measurements are actually intended to be along the base (including the curves).  This gives a longer measurement than the straight pull. It requires a cloth tape measure, and you're measuring along the bottom of the ski.  If you don't do it this way, the measurement will be off by 10-20 mm.

 

For my 190 Bacons, the spec sheet puts the "center" (i.e. sidecut center) at 933 mm from the tail.  If you measure along the base, this is exactly where the mark is on the ski graphic.  The measurement is on the bottom, so you have to have a way to check that spot on the top.

 

I suppose that measuring along the curve of the ski makes sense from a design/production perspective.  Note that when measuring this way, the length of the ski is almost exactly 1900 mm. 

 

This is why I tend to use a tape measure intended for measuring heads for helmets.   Measuring the bottom is key, although measuring the top can be done with a straight pull (this is actually what Line says to do on their tech note concerning their screw up), but if you measure the bottom along each edge and make your mark on the side wall, you can then use a straight edge to mark your line on the top sheet using the marks on the sidewall...that's what's worked for me anyway, but there's more than one way to skin a cat...

post #16 of 20
Thread Starter 

Thank you for the replies. It seams that the recommended line on the 11/12s is where "Eric's line" should be on a correctly marked pair of 13/14s. The pair of 13/14 Bacons I photoed must have been a mismarked pair. 

 

So if I wanted to match the intended 13/14 "recommended" line, I would have the bindings moved 4 cm back. Now the question is, is that the right move? There is a good discussion on that here: http://blistergearreview.com/gear-reviews/2012-2013-line-sir-francis-bacon#comment-25446 The last few posts comment on the center mount question. Jason the reviewer said he has tried many different mounting points(for Bacons and Opus), and found non better than "Erics line".

post #17 of 20

It's sad that you spend so much time overthinking the line, when in reality....you bought the ski too small. A line ski at 178 is really small, i would bet is measures closer to 173.

post #18 of 20
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecimmortal View Post
 

It's sad that you spend so much time overthinking the line, when in reality....you bought the ski too small. A line ski at 178 is really small, i would bet is measures closer to 173.

It's sad people with nothing helpful to say, post anyway.  Thanks for that very helpful insight.... Per the Line web site, 178 is the proper size for my height/weight (5'10"/160).

 

I thought my skis were the ones that were mismarked, I know now I was wrong. I am not the only one posting with questions about the new mounting locations.

post #19 of 20

wow! long thread!

I actually have had a pair of 2008/09 bacons, 09/10 bacon. 11/12 bacon, 13/14 bacon and soon... 14/15 bacon

mmmmm bacon

I have also skied, 2002/03 182 mothership, 2004/05 178 skogan sprang, 2006/07 179 prophet 100, 2007/08 178 invader, 2008/09 anthem... some k2s, blizzard, elan, salomons.. nordicas, icelantic

I am CSIA level 3 instructor of 10 years and a freeski coach

 

So, before 2011 the ski had regular camber, different mounting points, but the 2011/12, white, with the green tree.... this changed everything!!

I also had this pair mounted on the only marked mounting point for the ski. (184 length) I was so happy with this and yes, this is true center. Turn one ski around the bindings line up.

but... I took a few dings to the side wall and to make one repair the tech took off one of the toe pieces. when he went to remount the toe piece, there was rotten wood and couldn't get the screw back in, so... remounted the entire set up, 1cm back from the only marked mounting point. Boy did it fuck them up, it skied differently, i had edge drag, the only time they skied good was when they were dull and i could slide em, but out of the workshop with a fresh tune... like garbage.

 

So, 2011/12 bacons had a uniquely shaped sidecut that only allowed for grip in the right places, with one mounting point.

As of 13/14, the blue on white graphics, they introduced different mounting points  to make it a real quiver of one and allow people to mount where they want. They could only do this by making the narrowest point of the ski take up a greater length on the ski. This has also created greater sidecut and better radius and better edge hold. Previously, the narrowest part of the ski would only sit under the boot, so if you mounted your 11/12 bacons back from the marked mounting position like i was forced to do... it sucks... and so does 'recommended' mark on the newer models... i mean, really, the ski is so fat and perfect amount of early rise, you don't need to go that far back. Why would you ski a spoon? I hear people say "to keep me floating in the deep stuff" well.... I can ski a 165 Rossignol 9S worldcup in powder, its all about your stance, not your mounting point.

 

I am going to stick with center, it works perfectly. 184, i teach on it, i huck on it, i spin, i hit the occasional rail with my team. If you really have doubts, then invest in the Marker Schizo and have the option to adjust your bindings back and decide what works for you.

But i'm not going to lie, even at center mount, they carve like a beast!

 

I Love the bacons, I hope they continue the model or at least the shape for a while.

post #20 of 20

Like Cobb says, I always buy Schizo bindings for the newer skis, or you can purchase demo bindings. The ability to move your boot back and forth on the fly makes any ski a chameleon. My Line Sick Days are a prime example.......... forward to turn fast, back for deep pow and high speed, mid setting for playing and switch............. three skis for the price of one and no where do I mount them issues! :)

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Gear Discussion
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › Ski Gear Discussion › Sir Francis Bacon & Mr Pollards Opus mounting / Lines big screw-up?