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Shameless Personal Plug Related to Jackson Hole - Page 4

post #91 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by supergaper View Post
 

Regarding access to skiing here in Jackson, this morning they "oversold" ski school.  So it was about 250 folks ahead of the public. On the other hand, the Hobacks have yet to open this year, except I and about 50 other season pass holders have about 20-30 runs each in them this year

 

In the end it cuts both ways, you can buy access, or you can be "on the inside" and get access too.

 

I was at Sublette chair at about 9:13 this morning, so I would have beat anyone coming from the early gondola.

 

I did have to leave my house at 6:30 this morning, but by all accounts the back dock was way more of a shit show at

the tram than the public maze.

 

Just a snapshot of a powder day from an average local.


I have absolutely no problems with locals making turns.  I have done my share of boot-packing or obstacle uncovering runs while working with patrol or lately, as a paying customer.  What I have a problem with is showing some loyalty to a resort by being a multiple year season pass holder and having 700 or so acres pre tracked on a 14" mid-week powder day that many pass holders took a vacation day off to ski.  In the past, that stuff was reserved for places like the Yellowstone Club and we all know how that worked out. 

post #92 of 113

Ha! If only life were fair!

 

Fortunately your average pass holder and patroller share a love a skiing that allows for things like the skiing

of the Hobacks prior to opening.

 

Its the resort's job to monetize everything, and the avid skier's job to ski powder by any means necessary.  The reality is that

ski school is the main profit center, well above season passes so thats how it works out.

 

Though I try to remain above the fray, I will say that when the early tram folk went up the back steps today and would stop and stare at us proles below, I finally had to say "quit fucking staring and get your ass up on the dock"

post #93 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by supergaper View Post
 

Ha! If only life were fair!

 

Fortunately your average pass holder and patroller share a love a skiing that allows for things like the skiing

of the Hobacks prior to opening.

 

Its the resort's job to monetize everything, and the avid skier's job to ski powder by any means necessary.  The reality is that

ski school is the main profit center, well above season passes so thats how it works out.

 

Though I try to remain above the fray, I will say that when the early tram folk went up the back steps today and would stop and stare at us proles below, I finally had to say "quit fucking staring and get your ass up on the dock"

 

I very clearly remember my first and last experience getting up early for The Tram as a season pass holder.  It was in the middle 90s and there was a big dump.  I still hadn't really learned to ski powder at that time and was stoked to get some.  I was in the line with no breakfast by 6:30 and I was number 3.  I was so pumped!  Imagine my amazement as hordes of rich people with coffee and muffins started cruising past me around 8:25.  I watched three boxes of people go up in front of me.  But I figured that there was a lot of bowl up there.  When I got up there all those people were gone and when I looked at the Bowl in the sunshine, all I could see where tracks.  These weren't even "good" tracks.  Lots of traverses and craters where people had fallen.  I was hungry and pissed beyond belief.  I swore I would never do that again and thought  that it was a crime to sell first tracks.  There were also some douchebags in the public line who thought it was OK to show up early and put their skis in the line then go have breakfast for an hour and come back.  Later on in my pass holding life I started pitching those skis to the back of the line after a while if those people weren't physically there.  The "shit show" isn't limited to the the back dock. 

 

At that time I was barely making it here and had no prayer of paying for early tracks, lessons, or any of that crap.  I could barely afford a season pass and a pair of used demo skis.  My resentment caused me to hate tourists and the ski corp for a bunch of years.  I thought that I was better than them, more pure or something.  I didn't ski well enough to be Air Force, but felt a kinship with them.  There was an us vs them vibe and we felt like it was our mountain and the ski corp had no right to tell us what to do.  I sometimes acted like a little asshole to the tourists who really didn't understand why they were being treated like that.  Over time I grew up a little and I started making money.  I still can't afford to buy early access, but I understand the forces driving it even if I still don't fully approve of it.  Now that I work for the corp I closely interact with several hundred tourists every season.  I have found that 99% of them are good people who are here to enjoy themselves.  

 

When I started looking at tourists as people instead of the enemy or some sort of obstacle, I found that I like a lot of them.  Where I used to see a stupid clueless gaper, I now see a person who is in an umfailiar place with a lot of things going on around them and is maybe a bit overwhelmed and "situationally unaware".  Tourist don't act stupid to piss off the locals, they just don't know any better.  I've also realized that when I travel somewhere new that I often become a lot like them.  I am dangerous in a city.  I don't know where I'm going and my driving shows it.  I also have poorly developed city instincts and need to be extra careful to not get into the wrong neighborhoods and things like that that come naturally to most city dwellers. 

 

My life is so much better now than it was 10 years ago.  I make less money than I did then, but I love teaching skiing and guiding people in the parks.  Because I am happier, I am generally nicer and it feeds on it's elf in a positive feedback loop.  I have found that it is easier to be nice than to be nasty and it makes my day and everyone elses day better.  It feels good for a half second to say something like "quit fucking staring and get your ass up on the dock", but IME it brings everything including myself down.

post #94 of 113
Great post
post #95 of 113
+1 even if he does eat elves...
Quote:
feeds on it's elf
post #96 of 113

$175 is crazy.  At Squaw they have dawn patrol for $29 (limited to Granite Chief and Shirley), but the key is gold pass holders get 2 of them free each season so they aren't being undercut.  And it includes breakfast.

post #97 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post
 

$175 is crazy.  At Squaw they have dawn patrol for $29 (limited to Granite Chief and Shirley), but the key is gold pass holders get 2 of them free each season so they aren't being undercut.  And it includes breakfast.

better to start expensive then discount, rather then trying to go the other way.

post #98 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post

I did that for 4 straight days.  It's called the Steep and Deep Camp.

How did you like it? Worth the money?
post #99 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayT View Post

$175 is crazy.  At Squaw they have dawn patrol for $29 (limited to Granite Chief and Shirley), but the key is gold pass holders get 2 of them free each season so they aren't being undercut.  And it includes breakfast.

Breakfast? I think that benefit is not there anymore.
post #100 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexzn View Post


Breakfast? I think that benefit is not there anymore.

 

You're right.  It used to include breakfast but cost a bit more.  Either way, at least it's not $175.

post #101 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by mummer43 View Post


How did you like it? Worth the money?

 

Steep & Deep Camp was worth every penny.  Hard to see it after 4 days of exhausting lessons, but after 11 years I can say that was a real turning point for me.  Some of my buddies say my skiing gets better the steeper it gets.

 

I can't remember staring at the 'proles' below in the tram dock maze, but I do recall getting up the hill up to an hour before the official start time.  I did a similar camp at Snowbird in 2003, and it was the same tram-line-cutting privileges.  Since you're in a training / learning atmosphere, the powder fever is somewhat muted.  We did score first tracks at the Bookends in Mineral Basin one morning - very cool that a staff photographer was already set up halfway down.

post #102 of 113

As we near the end of the season, I just wonder how the early gondola model has worked out?  I know from experience that every single RPK 3 day this year Ski School OVERSOLD early trams.

 

That meant on Presidents Day, because Franz and Lexi couldn't get things together in the ski school line, they put 30 clients and schoolers on the first PUBLIC tram, cutting 30 people who got there prior to 7am.  Better yet, the tram was overweight and 7 people had to get off, 3 employees, myself and 3 others got off, the schoolers and there clients were let on first and were too far from a door to make their getting off feasible.

 

I got there at 6:30am like I do every powder day.

 

I feel like TPJ was implying that I am somehow anti visitor/tourist- that could be not further from the truth, I am certainly known among most locals as an exceedingly friendly person, I am happy to take pictures, stop to see if someone needs help if they seem in distress, and give real helpful directions around the hill.  I am also happy to wait in line and take my turn to access some great skiing.

 

I am anti elitist, and certainly anti ski school.  As I have said before, the reality is ski school is the number one profit center for any mountain so they get to do a lot of things.  But this year has made a few things clear- the early access is under priced- If you are at capacity, or actually beyond capacity with early access it makes sense to raise the price, the frenzy at the top (which I have experienced more than once) is far worse than the stoke of the "unwashed" down in the public line.

 

I would like to see fewer, ultra wealthy folks up there, paying more to be there, the resort could realize more money, my early arrival in line would be rewarded with more powder- everyone wins!

 

Guess I am for the 1% at the expense of the 2%.

post #103 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by supergaper View Post
 

As we near the end of the season, I just wonder how the early gondola model has worked out?  I know from experience that every single RPK 3 day this year Ski School OVERSOLD early trams.

 

That meant on Presidents Day, because Franz and Lexi couldn't get things together in the ski school line, they put 30 clients and schoolers on the first PUBLIC tram, cutting 30 people who got there prior to 7am.  Better yet, the tram was overweight and 7 people had to get off, 3 employees, myself and 3 others got off, the schoolers and there clients were let on first and were too far from a door to make their getting off feasible.

 

I got there at 6:30am like I do every powder day.

 

I feel like TPJ was implying that I am somehow anti visitor/tourist- that could be not further from the truth, I am certainly known among most locals as an exceedingly friendly person, I am happy to take pictures, stop to see if someone needs help if they seem in distress, and give real helpful directions around the hill.  I am also happy to wait in line and take my turn to access some great skiing.

 

I am anti elitist, and certainly anti ski school.  As I have said before, the reality is ski school is the number one profit center for any mountain so they get to do a lot of things.  But this year has made a few things clear- the early access is under priced- If you are at capacity, or actually beyond capacity with early access it makes sense to raise the price, the frenzy at the top (which I have experienced more than once) is far worse than the stoke of the "unwashed" down in the public line.

 

I would like to see fewer, ultra wealthy folks up there, paying more to be there, the resort could realize more money, my early arrival in line would be rewarded with more powder- everyone wins!

 

Guess I am for the 1% at the expense of the 2%.

 

I am glad that you aren't anti-tourist and are nice to people in real life.  That is not the impression I have of you from your posts and I apologize if I characterized you in an inaccurate light.  

 

To be fair to Franz and Lexy, it's not them doing the selling.  They have to deal with the fall out if the sales desk sells more spots than they should, additionally I think there are VIPs, film crews, and others sent up early through non ski school sources.  I doubt that our new computer system allows marketing and sales to talk to each other very effectively to create an accurate count.  I can say that the portion of the operating system that allows me to check my schedule, pay history, and contact other instructors is not really working yet.  In any case, this is an issue that needs to be worked out if it is as bad as you describe.  I would be beyond pissed off if I had to get out of an early box that I had been waiting for over two hours for.  

 

I enjoy teaching the early Tram lessons and have worked the early box on most of the good days this season.  I have accepted that there are three boxes that go before the first "public" box and that people can pay extra to be on them and I have found my solution to skiing more powder inbounds.  I refuse to wait in the Tram line for more than 20 minutes and made that descion many years before I worked for the Ski School.  When I free ski on a powder day, which these days is almost never, I get up on the Gondola or various lift combinations.  I don't think the prices should be raised.  They are high enough already and the product only sells out on the big days.  The rest of the time there is little demand for early Trams, but I usually up-sell a private guest because it's great to be up there early and first even if you're skiing wind buff and untracked corduroy.  

 

I agree that the early numbers should be fixed and the rules adhered to.  There should be no SS Trams being loaded between 9-9:30am or after 3:00pm and during operating hours the number from the school line should be capped at 25 like the rules say.  I'm not the decider...  My gut tells me that if the box gets oversold, whoever didn't get on the 8:48 doesn't get to go until 9;30, even if it means giving out a refund.  I always tell my people to be ready to go at 8:15 so we can catch the 8:28 and I warn them that the box leaves on time even if we aren't on it.

post #104 of 113
First Tracks is free in Aspen/Snowmass. Since we don't have lift lines, I'm not sure if people would pay?

Originally it was a free for all. I think I screwed it up for everyone when the SSD saw me ripping down the face solo with no one else in sight, on a big day.

Now they usually set one of the main groomed runs as the course and then let you milk the edges on a powder day.

Different philosophy and yet we're the ones with the expensive reputation.
post #105 of 113

Aspen/Snowmass doesn't have liftlines on powder days?

post #106 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

When I started looking at tourists as people instead of the enemy or some sort of obstacle, I found that I like a lot of them.  Where I used to see a stupid clueless gaper, I now see a person who is in an umfailiar place with a lot of things going on around them and is maybe a bit overwhelmed and "situationally unaware".  Tourist don't act stupid to piss off the locals, they just don't know any better.  I've also realized that when I travel somewhere new that I often become a lot like them.  I am dangerous in a city.  I don't know where I'm going and my driving shows it.  I also have poorly developed city instincts and need to be extra careful to not get into the wrong neighborhoods and things like that that come naturally to most city dwellers. 

 

Not exactly on topic, but absolutely the best explanation of tourists I've ever seen.

 

Back on topic, I continue to firmly believe that, if you're skiing on USFS land under a USFS permit, no amount of money should buy you early lift and/or skiing privileges.

 

I'm with TPJ on giving up on the tram first thing in the morning.  For me, this happened years ago when I realized that by the time I had watched all the early trams head up, I was starting my vacation day seriously pissed, in one of the most beautiful places that I spend time.

post #107 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

Aspen/Snowmass doesn't have liftlines on powder days?

Not really. Some of the base lifts will have one at the opening, but usually clear out pretty quick.
post #108 of 113
20 minutes max wait for a tram line - sound advice. I rarely get in the tram line if it extends out the maze, but some days this year the line has been all the way to the Alpenhof. Max wait time for me this year was 45 minutes, just because I wanted to hit upper Tensleep once this century while it was open. I know, I shoulda hiked......

I've never seen the early gondie deal that Bob Peters talked about in post #1 anywhere on the JHMR website. Where is it? (perhaps if one has to ask, they can't afford it?). The link is gone (error 404).
post #109 of 113

tramline tomorrow, see you there.  

post #110 of 113
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDog View Post

20 minutes max wait for a tram line - sound advice. I rarely get in the tram line if it extends out the maze, but some days this year the line has been all the way to the Alpenhof. Max wait time for me this year was 45 minutes, just because I wanted to hit upper Tensleep once this century while it was open. I know, I shoulda hiked......

I've never seen the early gondie deal that Bob Peters talked about in post #1 anywhere on the JHMR website. Where is it? (perhaps if one has to ask, they can't afford it?). The link is gone (error 404).

 

They discontinued the program.  

 

It reached a point this winter where there has been so much demand for private instructors and guides for early tram or gondola lessons that they just decided (I think) to stick with the old way of doing things.

 

And I agree with supergaper that being asked to get off the first tram because of overflow from the lesson cars really sucks.

 

This has been an educational winter.  It seems that JHMR has bumped up against the ceiling as far as how many people the various lifts and systems can handle.  It's been crazy a lot of days.

post #111 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Peters View Post
 

 

They discontinued the program.  

 

It reached a point this winter where there has been so much demand for private instructors and guides for early tram or gondola lessons that they just decided (I think) to stick with the old way of doing things.

 

And I agree with supergaper that being asked to get off the first tram because of overflow from the lesson cars really sucks.

 

This has been an educational winter.  It seems that JHMR has bumped up against the ceiling as far as how many people the various lifts and systems can handle.  It's been crazy a lot of days.


Bob,

 

I think everyone like myself that has been skiing JH for the last 10 years, has been telling everyone you must ski JH.  With all the new hotels there, I understand they are all filling up the hotels this year.  Ski magazines rate JH number one.   

 

End Result, a friend of mine that has been visiting JH for over 10 years just got back this year and was extremely disappointed with the mid-week extremely long lift lines this year.  He is now looking to sell his JH time share condo and was looking at a place on the other side of the mountain. 

 

The JH locals can not be happy with the long lift lines. 

 

As a 10+ year JH tourist that skipped the last 2 years, I am just glad I got my million+  vertical feet at JH before it became so popular.  I guess its time for me to move on to a different mountain in the west.  Sad :-(  

post #112 of 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by catskills View Post


Bob,

 

I think everyone like myself that has been skiing JH for the last 10 years, has been telling everyone you must ski JH.  With all the new hotels there, I understand they are all filling up the hotels this year.  Ski magazines rate JH number one.   

 

End Result, a friend of mine that has been visiting JH for over 10 years just got back this year and was extremely disappointed with the mid-week extremely long lift lines this year.  He is now looking to sell his JH time share condo and was looking at a place on the other side of the mountain. 

 

The JH locals can not be happy with the long lift lines. 

 

As a 10+ year JH tourist that skipped the last 2 years, I am just glad I got my million+  vertical feet at JH before it became so popular.  I guess its time for me to move on to a different mountain in the west.  Sad :-(  

 



- Hotel Capacity
- More direct flights
- #1 SKI Mag rating (I guess that is a factor for some)
- Speedy Casper chair on intermediate terrain
- Obviously a great Mountain School

= paradaigm shift

Add to the above - the snowy weather and nothing in NorCal and you have the makings for a "busy" resort.

We were there week of Valentine's (but before holiday weekend) and I dont think i saw a tram line that wasnt to Alpenhof. It was worth every wait though. Snowed a lot that week. Sublette and Thunder were always fine or just a really short wait.
post #113 of 113

I've skied JH once and visited a few more times in summer.  Got to say as a punter of reasonable but not stratospheric means this thread hasn't made it as attractive as a must revist as many other great places I've been.  Feels like I'm being priced out.

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