or Connect
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › How do they get away with these lies?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

How do they get away with these lies? - Page 2  

post #31 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by bliz1978 View Post
 

Now would be a good time to point out that Jay is probably the place with the most powder days if you are counting a few inches of blower snow on any given day. If you want the big dumps, there are better places. Sugarloaf, Saddleback, and Wildcat consistently get the most 12"+ dumps from Nor'Easters.

 

 

lulz not even close.

post #32 of 105

I have had extensive correpondence with 3 people involved in careful snow measuring in Vermont, all in the Stowe area.  They do their jobs the same way people in the West do theirs, and I'm quite convinced that the northern Greens at ~3,000 elevation get somewhat over 300 inches per season.  There is  controversy about this because the independent measurements at WCAX transmitter on Mt. Mansfield (Ricardo referred to this above) look too low.   The "Mansfield Stake" new snow measurements are taken from a 24-inch high canister, while the other measurements are done with a snowboard as in most of the West.   Wind, riming etc. tends to result in less snow getting into the canister than onto a snowboard, plus if there's more than 24 inches in 24 hours (they checked the Valentine's Day storm of 2007) the canister isn't going to pick that up.

 

With regard to Jay, Vermont locals all agree it gets the most snow.   Jay's numbers seemed to increase after a management change in 2000.  They were quoting from an upper mountain location vs. what probably was mid-mountain before.  Jay also keeps lower measurements that I get at the end of the year.  If you average the post-2000 upper and lower, it looks similar to the 1982-1999 data.  I take my best shot for a Nov-Apr number for each area, and with 30 years of data that comes out to 329 for Jay, which I doubt any Vermont local would find unreasonable.  Marketing quoting from an upper vs. more representative mid-mountain location in not a exclusively eastern phenomenon:  Jackson, Alyeska, Squaw, Heavenly and Park City do it too.

Quote:
If you book ahead/have a week vacation you got rocks in your head if you don't head out west.  

 I agree with this but it has little to do with snowfall.  It has everything to due with rain, which is a constant threat in the East and essentially unheard of in Colorado in the winter.

1) The ice that ensues after a rain/freeze event is on a completely different level of unpleasantness vs. spring melt/freeze scenarios.

2) Warmups in the East with or without rain tend to damage the snowpack more with the chronic high humidity.  It is not uncommon for open terrain to lose enough cover to be closed mid-season after a rain or warm spell.  Once terrain in Colorado gets open, it stays open for the whole season with extremely rare exceptions like 2012, which combined an unusually low snowpack with an abnormally warm and dry spring.

3) In the East skiing can great one week (last weekend) and awful the next (this weekend).  That's why booking far in advance is dangerous.  If skiing in Colorado is great one weekend, it may not be powder the next weekend, but it will be mostly packed powder with as much or more terrain open, and it will not suck.  Even a month later it can still be decent with little new snow.

post #33 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

does not take away the fact wolf crreek is flatter than any mountain in northern vermont.

 

I ski jay  alittle, personally I hate jay because the of the long run out, wind, and glades so open every joey can ski them alot of the same reason wolf creek is not my favorite.

 

I ski stowe everyday, I also skied snowbird for 3 years. Stowe under reports and we still got to to 290 last year. plus we have pitch that wolf creek wishes it had.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151754466197382&set=pb.40145377381.-2207520000.1387749550.&type=3&theater justl ook back at the picture from this year. We live in wet place, sometimes it wet enough and cold enough to snow.

lol.....You want steep...there are places out west that make the vt mountains look flat. Snowbird/jacksonhole is much steeper than vt. Oh and then there's the backcountry where shit can get as crazy as you want.Huge cliff drops ect. I don't really need steep pitches to have fun anyway. I'm not a hard charger. Just enjoy playing in the pow and don't feel like getting hurt/taking big risks I like a more laid back mountain.. Let all the crazy's/future ortho rehab cases have at it at jackson.....I'll be at grand targhee with a big grin on my face.

post #34 of 105
Thread Starter 
 

1) The ice that ensues after a rain/freeze event is on a completely different level of unpleasantness vs. spring melt/freeze scenarios.

2) Warmups in the East with or without rain tend to damage the snowpack more with the chronic high humidity.  It is not uncommon for open terrain to lose enough cover to be closed mid-season after a rain or warm spell.  Once terrain in Colorado gets open, it stays open for the whole season with extremely rare exceptions like 2012, which combined an unusually low snowpack with an abnormally warm and dry spring.

3) In the East skiing can great one week (last weekend) and awful the next (this weekend).  That's why booking far in advance is dangerous.  If skiing in Colorado is great one weekend, it may not be powder the next weekend, but it will be mostly packed powder with as much or more terrain open, and it will not suck.  Even a month later it can still be decent with little new snow.

All that's true. It's also an over reliance on fake snow. I've been to an area in new england where they had a dump of a 6 inches the night before.No ice/temperature below 25F. Low humidity. Everything was groomed. They blew snow on 90% of the mountain. That area they blew snow on was typical hardpack/scraping sounds/ice on sections. Over at the seperate area where they did NOT blow snow, it was beautiful cordoroy. ZERO scraping. No ice/crud. It was true packed powder. That fake snow is totally horrible. It only serves to build a base, which you unfortunately need on the east coast. Nothing drives me more crazy than a mountain blowing snow while it's snowing outside! Big pet peeve. lol


Edited by Ricardo Snowmen - 12/22/13 at 2:37pm
post #35 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

lol.....You want steep...there are places out west that make the vt mountains look flat. Snowbird/jacksonhole is much steeper than vt. Oh and then there's the backcountry where shit can get as crazy as you want.Huge cliff drops ect. I don't really need steep pitches to have fun anyway. I'm not a hard charger. Just enjoy playing in the pow and don't feel like getting hurt/taking big risks I like a more laid back mountain.. Let all the crazy's/future ortho rehab cases have at it at jackson.....I'll be at grand targhee with a big grin on my face.

 

 

you missed the part about me skiing at snowbird for 3 year didnt you? there is stuff way steeper out west but do not start comparing BC, we have BC stuff just as steep and anything out there.

 

My real point is wolf creek is flat and stepped.

post #36 of 105
To the OP. You realize there's 40000 or so members on this site? And a good chunk/majority of the regulars ski out West? Many have been skiing for decades and rack up over 50 days a year? Who exactly is your audience for this thread? Curious.
post #37 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

 

 there is stuff way steeper out west but do not start comparing BC, we have BC stuff just as steep and anything out there.

 

 

haha.....Yeah. All those extreme BC video's coming out of the east coast. It's just as gnarly as the chugatch range.

post #38 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

To the OP. You realize there's 40000 or so members on this site? And a good chunk/majority of the regulars ski out West? Many have been skiing for decades and rack up over 50 days a year? Who exactly is your audience for this thread? Curious.

You think if they skied the west regularly they'd agree with me and know the truth that the northern greens don't get nearly 400 inches. Just look at the data bro. Notice they can't back up aynthing? It's just unofficial reporting from a ski area. No nws climate data. ENough said.

post #39 of 105

Ummmm, this thread is below the dignity of Epic regulars.  

post #40 of 105
Thread Starter 

Josh.....Oh and I don't live near wolf creek, so you're not insulting my home mountain anyway, though that's clearly what you're intending to. Nice try buddy boy

post #41 of 105

Jeepers!  Glad I'm not posting in this thread.

 

 

 

 

Oh, shoot.

post #42 of 105

I must say that this thread has gone off far better than I could have possibly hoped.

 

XMAS came early!

post #43 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post

Ummmm, this thread is below the dignity of Epic regulars.  
But it's lack of bile makes it irresistible! There are so many things I don't bring up just to avoid lighting a fire. I guess the way to go is to join a forum where you don't know anybody, then start and try to stoke a thread in the hopes of getting my passive aggressive ya-yas. It must be frustrating to want so badly to get in a fight and find everyone yawning. Heck, not even the "I hate New England" thread shows signs of The Crazy!
post #44 of 105
I am here to post in this very important thread.
post #45 of 105

Actually, @litterbug, the Steamboat posts from @Finndog are the ones that have me on the brink of such a serious existential crisis that I'm feeling tempted to go off on someone out of sheer frustration and envy. The "I Hate New England" one is pretty much a balm as far as I'm concerned. 

post #46 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

Ummmm, this thread is below the dignity of Epic regulars.  

 

I just want to know what kind of beans Ricky put in the coffee maker this afternoon. Because I want some.

 

post #47 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

 

I just want to know what kind of beans Ricky put in the coffee maker this afternoon. Because I want some.

 

 

May 15, 1989

post #48 of 105

Ricardo Snowman just needs more inches.

post #49 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

To the OP. You realize there's 40000 or so members on this site? And a good chunk/majority of the regulars ski out West? Many have been skiing for decades and rack up over 50 days a year? Who exactly is your audience for this thread? Curious.
Perhaps someone should start loudly singing Wolf Creek's praises just to see whether we can get him to defend Jay. duel.gif
post #50 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post

Actually, @litterbug
, the Steamboat posts from @Finndog
 are the ones that have me on the brink of such a serious existential crisis that I'm feeling tempted to go off on someone out of sheer frustration and envy. The "I Hate New England" one is pretty much a balm as far as I'm concerned. 
Say it aloud: Ullr grant me the serenity to suffer the fools that cannot change . . .
post #51 of 105

:popcorn

post #52 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Crocker View Post
 

I have had extensive correpondence with 3 people involved in careful snow measuring in Vermont, all in the Stowe area.  They do their jobs the same way people in the West do theirs, and I'm quite convinced that the northern Greens at ~3,000 elevation get somewhat over 300 inches per season.  There is  controversy about this because the independent measurements at WCAX transmitter on Mt. Mansfield (Ricardo referred to this above) look too low.   The "Mansfield Stake" new snow measurements are taken from a 24-inch high canister, while the other measurements are done with a snowboard as in most of the West.   Wind, riming etc. tends to result in less snow getting into the canister than onto a snowboard, plus if there's more than 24 inches in 24 hours (they checked the Valentine's Day storm of 2007) the canister isn't going to pick that up.

 

With regard to Jay, Vermont locals all agree it gets the most snow.   Jay's numbers seemed to increase after a management change in 2000.  They were quoting from an upper mountain location vs. what probably was mid-mountain before.  Jay also keeps lower measurements that I get at the end of the year.  If you average the post-2000 upper and lower, it looks similar to the 1982-1999 data.  I take my best shot for a Nov-Apr number for each area, and with 30 years of data that comes out to 329 for Jay, which I doubt any Vermont local would find unreasonable.  Marketing quoting from an upper vs. more representative mid-mountain location in not a exclusively eastern phenomenon:  Jackson, Alyeska, Squaw, Heavenly and Park City do it too.

 I agree with this but it has little to do with snowfall.  It has everything to due with rain, which is a constant threat in the East and essentially unheard of in Colorado in the winter.

1) The ice that ensues after a rain/freeze event is on a completely different level of unpleasantness vs. spring melt/freeze scenarios.

2) Warmups in the East with or without rain tend to damage the snowpack more with the chronic high humidity.  It is not uncommon for open terrain to lose enough cover to be closed mid-season after a rain or warm spell.  Once terrain in Colorado gets open, it stays open for the whole season with extremely rare exceptions like 2012, which combined an unusually low snowpack with an abnormally warm and dry spring.

3) In the East skiing can great one week (last weekend) and awful the next (this weekend).  That's why booking far in advance is dangerous.  If skiing in Colorado is great one weekend, it may not be powder the next weekend, but it will be mostly packed powder with as much or more terrain open, and it will not suck.  Even a month later it can still be decent with little new snow.

 

Tony, I've posted this before, but Jay used to keep two numbers on their website. Average snow and maximum snow.  Average snow was typically about 250" per year, but the maximum would come in at 350". The maximum is presumably at a higher mountain elevation, in a section prone to drifts. This probably better reveals the differences with the Mansfield stake.

 

From what I've read before (maybe it was from you), snow measurements in the West are more standardized in what elevation they must be taken from.

 

Also, from someone who has lived in and spent considerable time skiing on the leeward sides of Lake Huron, Lake Erie, and Lake Ontario, I can say the snow piles and snow in towns is considerably more than what I've seen at Jay Peak.  I don't think the Great Lakes lake effect areas would do any better as far as snow preservation as Jay Peak especially since they're considerably lower in elevation.  When I lived in Barrie Ontario, you couldn't see the roads from the sidewalks in mid-winter (not even close), and the local resorts would only boast 120".  

 

My thought is at base elevation, Jay would be less than Blue Mountain, Ontario or Holiday Valley, NY- and they only report 120" and 180" respectively. When you drive the streets, its just too clear to see.  I could see though, at 3000' and up, Jay would be more.

post #53 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeSchmoe View Post
 

 

Tony, I've posted this before, but Jay used to keep two numbers on their website. Average snow and maximum snow.  Average snow was typically about 250" per year, but the maximum would come in at 350". The maximum is presumably at a higher mountain elevation, in a section prone to drifts. This probably better reveals the differences with the Mansfield stake.

 

From what I've read before (maybe it was from you), snow measurements in the West are more standardized in what elevation they must be taken from.

 

Also, from someone who has lived in and spent considerable time skiing on the leeward sides of Lake Huron, Lake Erie, and Lake Ontario, I can say the snow piles and snow in towns is considerably more than what I've seen at Jay Peak.  I don't think the Great Lakes lake effect areas would do any better as far as snow preservation as Jay Peak especially since they're considerably lower in elevation.  When I lived in Barrie Ontario, you couldn't see the roads from the sidewalks in mid-winter (not even close), and the local resorts would only boast 120".  

 

My thought is at base elevation, Jay would be less than Blue Mountain, Ontario or Holiday Valley, NY- and they only report 120" and 180" respectively. When you drive the streets, its just too clear to see.  I could see though, at 3000' and up, Jay would be more.

 

 

eh.......base elevation would not get that much less snow. orographic upslopes are not just tops of mountains but the entire surrrounding area.

post #54 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by qcanoe View Post
 

Actually, @litterbug, the Steamboat posts from @Finndog are the ones that have me on the brink of such a serious existential crisis that I'm feeling tempted to go off on someone out of sheer frustration and envy. The "I Hate New England" one is pretty much a balm as far as I'm concerned. 

 

But you need me to post these things!   :rotflmao:

 

 

(that said I just missed this monster storm that dumped over the weekend. According to one of my friends and I am sure Tam will concur, it was mid-thigh yesterday)  

post #55 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

does not take away the fact wolf crreek is flatter than any mountain in northern vermont.

 

I ski jay  alittle, personally I hate jay because the of the long run out, wind, and glades so open every joey can ski them alot of the same reason wolf creek is not my favorite.

 

I ski stowe everyday, I also skied snowbird for 3 years. Stowe under reports and we still got to to 290 last year. plus we have pitch that wolf creek wishes it had.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151754466197382&set=pb.40145377381.-2207520000.1387749550.&type=3&theater justl ook back at the picture from this year. We live in wet place, sometimes it wet enough and cold enough to snow.

 (with sarcasm) Wait, are you saying a resort can be good if all of the runs aren't 30* or greater?  Blasphemy I say!  

 

 

Folks, you gotta chill on these snow totals, no one knows what they really are; just a relative guide. The numbers can be all over the board depending on where they collect, what time and so on.  Look at what Tony said, they are collecting snow in a can dammit... Seriously, take the numbers in general and look at the frequency of snow; not the totals. One great thing about the boat is we get snow consistently, The dumps are great but having the mountain get a refresh once a week is key.  Look at Tahoe, they get feet of snow (when it does snow there) but it can be 3-4 weeks in between storms.  So, the totals and stats are worthless and useless.  

post #56 of 105

I was under the impression that jay got a bump in snow totals vs mad river/sugarbush simply because of its proximity to lake champlain and the lake effect. 

post #57 of 105

As an engineer, I put a lot of stock in numbers.  Snowfall numbers reported by resorts is the exception that prooves the rule.  In this case, it is better to go by reputation, which is widely held, easily available, changes gradually with conditions and yet is still time tested.

 

Having skied at Blue Mountain Collingwood, ON,  Jay Peak VT, and Mt. Washington B.C. I also have plenty of anecdotal evidence to confirm the reputations.  Jay does have lot's of snow compared to Blue, but it's not like Mt. Washington where I can recall sinking to my armpits when I stepped off my skis just to see how far I would sink   (let's not talk about that other 1/2 day I spent swimming around in the snow looking for a ski instead of skiing).

post #58 of 105

Richard, I know its sad but Colorado just does not get much snow in the grand scheme. Accept the facts friend. I don't think anyone at Alta has their panties in a twist about this stat. 

 

I ski northern VT a lot and my personal opinion is that Jay's stats are inflated a bit, but not by much. I know Stowe's numbers are pretty much spot on from skiing there primarily. Actually one could make the argument that Stowe under reports compared to if you measured it right in the best nooks in the woods where the lake effect really collects. 

 

As a final qualifier, I'm living Jackson this winter and do care about this stuff. (Believe this makes me credible based on one of your earlier comments)

post #59 of 105
I'm more interested in base depths.

Steamboat 60"
Whitefish 67"
Kimberley 86"
Fernie 65"
Bridger 65"
Jay 36"
Stowe 40"

I wish they'd publish some kind of rock depth info to tell us how much base is needed for most of the place to be skiable.
post #60 of 105

Base depth is key, but it's also easier for resorts to lie about.  With all the snow stake cams popping up in CO, overnight snowfall is becoming more difficult to fudge.  The cams don't and can't show base depth, though.  I've noticed some base depths jump up more than they probably should have, giving some well known cheating resorts a few inches more in base depth going forward.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: General Skiing Discussion
This thread is locked  
EpicSki › The Barking Bear Forums › On the Snow (Skiing Forums) › General Skiing Discussion › How do they get away with these lies?