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How do they get away with these lies?  

post #1 of 105
Thread Starter 

Has anyone seen the absurd snow averages claimed by resorts in northern vermont? Jay peak claims 375 inches! hahaha

 

Wolf creek, colorado average 435 inches

Here's an actual official climate data

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co9181

 

Comparing the snowiest resort in colorado to jay peak is absolutely laughable. I'd say at middle elevation(proper place to measure snow) in the northern greens you are lucky if you average 200 inches. 

post #2 of 105
popcorn.gif
post #3 of 105

I'm guessing this is an attempt at trolling, but I'm bored, so I'll play.  You don't say where you're from or what your experience is with skiing Northern Vermont, so I'll just give my anecdotal evidence.

 

I'm not very familiar with Jay Peak, so I'm not sure how accurate their quoted snowfall totals are.  However, I've been to Jay several times over the years in late March and early April, and while most places have melted out and are skiing only on their man-made snow trails, Jay was 100% open and skiing the trees.  Part of that is undoubtedly related to the fact that they are so far north that they avoid some of the warm-ups, but part of it is because they do get a shitload of snow.

 

I am pretty familiar with Stowe which is maybe an hour south of Jay.  Stowe claims over 300" a year as well.  I've been a part of enough powder days at Stowe that it seems like a reasonable total to me.  A couple big dumps a season plus a nice refresher of an inch or two here and there two or three times a week and it adds up.  Stowe the mountain and Stowe the town don't get anything close to the same weather.  I've seen a dusting in town translate to thigh-deep on the mountain.

post #4 of 105
Tony Crocker's site is sort of the go to site for Epic members. Tony tries to normalize for various resorts' reporting anomalies. Many resorts start counting at the first flake even if it melts. Some resorts include snow outside of their opening and closing dates. Some stick the stake in pockets where the snow blows TO.

Nevertheless, he's showing quite a bit of average snowfall for Jay.
post #5 of 105
Thread Starter 

His site is just regurgitating what the ski area's are reporting. It's not official nws data that's unrelated to a ski area.

post #6 of 105
Thread Starter 

So you had a few powder days in norther vermont? That doesn't mean anything. People can have a powder day with a 40 inch average! Ski wolf creek for a year. 3 feet in a day is common. Hell look at the snow banks! Anyone that believes that jay peak/stowe get anywhere near the level of snow as wolf creek has never been out west for a season. You don't chain up to visit jay peak. lol

post #7 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

His site is just regurgitating what the ski area's are reporting. It's not official nws data that's unrelated to a ski area.

 

On what basis do you say this? In my experience, Tony's site reflects reality better than any other. 

post #8 of 105
Thread Starter 

The problem with type of thread is it becomes east vs west and east coasters don't want to admit their home turf can't compare to out west if you like sking lots of natural snow. There's a reason even ski magazines have such a thing as an east coast ski vs west coast ski. East coast is notorious for ice because man made snow turns to ice/crude in a heartbeat compared to the natural stuff. No comparison.

post #9 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
 

 

On what basis do you say this? In my experience, Tony's site reflects reality better than any other. 

On facts. There no offfical nws climate data from jay peak or most of the sites he lists.  Contact ncdc for climate data and look at official reporting stations from the nws. Contact burlington nws and ask them for official snow reporting stations. The only official one I saw was mount mansfield which averages 220 inches at nearly 4400 feet. So you can imagine what stowe/jay average at MID elevation.

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416

post #10 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

So you had a few powder days in norther vermont? That doesn't mean anything. People can have a powder day with a 40 inch average! Ski wolf creek for a year. 3 feet in a day is common. Hell look at the snow banks! Anyone that believes that jay peak/stowe get anywhere near the level of snow as wolf creek has never been out west for a season. You don't chain up to visit jay peak. lol

 

As for the height of the snow banks...  There's no denying that Vermont goes through its unfair share of thaws in any given winter.  Last week, Stowe got somewhere around 18" of snow.  It's largely melted in the last two days due to the current thaw, so it doesn't look like they got it...  but they got it.

 

As for chaining up...  Getting to Stowe involves a half-mile 10% grade hill just before getting to the resort.  I've seen enough cars spun off the road on that hill that I imagine some people have chained up to get there on storm days -- or, perhaps, at least wished they had.  Granted, it's not like driving up Wolf Creek Pass, but we don't have the elevation around here to require 10-mile long climbs.

post #11 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

On facts. There no offfical nws climate data from jay peak or most of the sites he lists.  Contact ncdc for climate data and look at official reporting stations from the nws. Contact burlington nws and ask them for official snow reporting stations. The only official one I saw was mount mansfield which averages 220 inches at nearly 4400 feet. So you can imagine what stowe/jay average at MID elevation.

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?vt5416

 

As far as I can tell, Tony tries pretty hard to tease out reality given the on-mountain and local data available. Here is his statement on this from his site.

 

Quote:
Column three (both tables): Average annual snowfall. By utilizing the extensive monthly statistics compiled for avalanche forecasting, we can project reliable seasonal averages for the period November 1 through April 30. Within each region there is at least one area with a minimum of 30 years of complete monthly data that can be used to index snowfall to any closely correlated area in that region. Discrepancies between averages presented here and those advertised by ski areas are due to several factors: 1) Ski areas don't always measure snowfall over the monthly periods required to make such broad, even comparisons; 2) Ski areas may not keep long-term snowfall data, and utilize averages over shorter periods of time--typically five years--for marketing purposes; 3) ski area snowfall figures are occasionally "white" lies--marketing directors blow smoke with anecdotal information and inflated figures. More often legitimate data is collected from a choice snowfall area and marketed as representative of the entire mountain. Altitude comparisons from columns 1 and 2 can be revealing here.

 

I recently double checked an article that included a snowfall scoring component. I compared what Tony had vs the published numbers. Here's the comparison with Tony's numbers vs the published (Tony's first).

 

Kirkwood 472/600
Alta 539/514
Snowbird 459/500
Jackson 369/475
Squaw 457/450
Big Sky 261/400
Mammoth 359/400

 

Just saying that he clearly is not just regurgitating the published numbers (which are clearly usually cherry picked).

post #12 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinF View Post
 

 

As for the height of the snow banks...  There's no denying that Vermont goes through its unfair share of thaws in any given winter.  Last week, Stowe got somewhere around 18" of snow.  It's largely melted in the last two days due to the current thaw, so it doesn't look like they got it...  but they got it.

 

As for chaining up...  Getting to Stowe involves a half-mile 10% grade hill just before getting to the resort.  I've seen enough cars spun off the road on that hill that I imagine some people have chained up to get there on storm days -- or, perhaps, at least wished they had.  Granted, it's not like driving up Wolf Creek Pass, but we don't have the elevation around here to require 10-mile long climbs.

The average high/low at the pass level in feb is 31/6. It's gotten into the 50's before in the middle of winter. It's not that cold there suprisingly. Yes snow depth and snowfall are obviously two different variables.

post #13 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spindrift View Post
 

 

As far as I can tell, Tony tries pretty hard to tease out reality given the on-mountain and local data available. Here is his statement on this from his site.

 

 

I recently double checked an article that included a snowfall scoring component. I compared what Tony had vs the published numbers. Here's the comparison with Tony's numbers vs the published (Tony's first).

 

Kirkwood 472/600
Alta 539/514
Snowbird 459/500
Jackson 369/475
Squaw 457/450
Big Sky 261/400
Mammoth 359/400

 

Just saying that he clearly is not just regurgitating the published numbers (which are clearly usually cherry picked).

So where are his numbers coming from? Where's the links to official nws data showing jay peak gets over 300 inches like his site says?  Avalanche forecasting means he can tell there's  a 539 vs 514 split in a 30 year average? Give me a break. You need someone measure religiously there for that.

post #14 of 105
Calling @Tony Crocker to the white courtesy phone...
post #15 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

So where are his numbers coming from? Where's the links to official nws data showing jay peak gets over 300 inches like his site says?  Avalanche forecasting means he can tell there's  a 539 vs 514 split in a 30 year average? Give me a break. You need someone measure religiously there for that.

 
 

What you need is consistent measurement. Do I think there is a statistically significant difference between those two numbers? No. Do I expect someone doing a long term average to be consistent in the numbers they are averaging? Yes. 

 

I can't say how Tony is doing the measurements for any given location. I can say he has talked about a number of places over time and has been pretty reasonable in his approach IMO. Perhaps he will weigh in here. Or you could PM and see if you are satisfied. 

 

Having skied a decent number of places, I'd say that over time, Tony's numbers have painted the best picture I've seen of what reality seems to be in many places. Not that these is anything intrinsically sacred about his numbers. Just that they are not gamed marketing departments and reflect the longer term realities I've seen "on the ground"....

post #16 of 105

ehh, The resorts are just reporting based on their area, all subject to all kinds of fluctuations and practices that the resort employs. Its kind of like monopoly; everyone has their own rules for their homes.  Snowfall amounts can vary widely depending on where they fall on the mountain (direction and/or altitude) so where they collect and measure will play a huge role in the numbers. Steamboats a classic example on crazy reporting practices.  No one can accurately report or even equalize. Frankly, who cares!  Seriously, take any resort and assume they get could get ~20% delta per season depending on how the flows go.  Its not ike anyone knows when or how much is going to fall. Its all a generalization.  Even past snowfalls in todays climates really don't mean much.  Use some rough generalizations for a guess when is the best time to go to XXX mountain but its really a crap shoot.  So what do you really care if an average snowfall for a resorts annual snowfall totals says 350 vs. 400 inches?  Are you not going to a resort because one "averages" a mere 4 feet more snow over the course of 6 months? 

post #17 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

Has anyone seen the absurd snow averages claimed by resorts in northern vermont? Jay peak claims 375 inches! hahaha

 

Wolf creek, colorado average 435 inches

Here's an actual official climate data

http://www.wrcc.dri.edu/cgi-bin/cliMAIN.pl?co9181

 

Comparing the snowiest resort in colorado to jay peak is absolutely laughable. I'd say at middle elevation(proper place to measure snow) in the northern greens you are lucky if you average 200 inches. 

And did you just find out that Santa Claus is a lie as well?

post #18 of 105
It's just trolling, litterbug. Do not be tempted. Just trolling...probably because everyone's been too busy with ski season to get serious about bickering. Perhaps Ricardo isn't getting any (skiing, that is). Don't bother looking up data, litterbug. Go skiing.
post #19 of 105

wake up, look out the window, if its really really white and you hear snow plows, go skiing.  Thumbs Up

post #20 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

  So what do you really care if an average snowfall for a resorts annual snowfall totals says 350 vs. 400 inches?  Are you not going to a resort because one "averages" a mere 4 feet more snow over the course of 6 months? 

No, but that's my whole point. Jay peak probably averages less than 200 inche instead of 375. That's a HUGE deal. If jay peak and wolf creek were equal distance......where would you go if you wanted powder? According to the numbers jay peak says, there should be hardly any difference between the two. But heck if you guys believe that jay peak gets around the same snowfall as wolf creek.....than obviously the marketing department has got the east coast guys who don't know any better figured out pretty well.. lol Why else would someone book a week long vacation in Northern vt when they live in nyc/nj when they could get a round trip ticket to denver for 200 bucks. Sucker born everyday. 

post #21 of 105

I have no idea how much jay peak gets but lets be real here, if you choose Jay peak over wolf due simply to a resorts reporting of snowfall, well, there are other problems at play.  Any skier knows the resorts numbers are off.  

post #22 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post

 Any skier knows the resorts numbers are off.  

You do! Most don't! It's unbelievable, but a lot of people don't! "John q ski public" 

 

Why do you think they market their snowmaking capabilities so much? "SNOWMAGGEDON"! lol They actually tell people there's no difference from the real stuff. There's a huge difference between fake and real snow EVEN when its been groomed. Real snow is soft and powdery. Fake shit turns to ice/crud. And for people who hit up hunter/east coast resorts a few times a year, they don't know any better! Some of them have never even skied real snow. Why do you think some resorts on the east coast like jiminy peak groom 95% of their trails after a powder dump? (That place really sucks btw. It's only an extra 30 minutes to mount snow. I don't get how they do any business charging nearly 70 bucks for that mole hill). Some don't leave anything ungroomed after an overnight dump! Because these people that visit their have no clue how to ski real snow! It's really NOT that hard and you don't need to go super steep. I can ride powder on a green trail that has no big flat spots obviously.

 

How do you think these vt resorts do the business they do? It's all NYC metro baby! VT locals have to work at mountain to afford pass. It's all resort buildups/condo's ect for new yorkers. They charge nearly a 100 bucks for a lift ticket and have completely priced out middle class/working class families going on a vacation. All so people can ski on fake ice crap. VT is not wolf creek, but it can be absolutely awesome if you know how to work it and you live CLOSE. That means no booking vacations/lift tickets ahead of time. Too unpredictable. Got to hit it when it's on. If you book ahead/have a week vacation you got rocks in your head if you don't head out west. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

post #23 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

You do! Most don't! It's unbelievable, but a lot of people don't! "John q ski public" 

 

 

 

How do you think these vt resorts do the business they do? It's all NYC metro baby! VT locals have to work at mountain to afford pass. It's all resort buildups/condo's ect for new yorkers. They charge nearly a 100 bucks for a lift ticket and have completely priced out middle class/working class families going on a vacation. All so people can ski on fake ice crap. VT is not wolf creek, but it can be absolutely awesome if you know how to work it and you live CLOSE. That means no booking vacations/lift tickets ahead of time. Too unpredictable. Got to hit it when it's on. If you book ahead/have a week vacation you got rocks in your head if you don't head out west. Just my 2 cents. Take it for what it's worth.

 

that's why any reasonable person would never book a trip to Jay Peak over Wolf (of course, Wolf is a small "resort" and really not a resort you would necessarily travel to) but again, anyone who has a little sense would know that a resort in Summit county will have more snow or at least better options than Jay Peak.  Its just not that complicated. If you are a NYC skier and can't afford to fly to Colorado (for instance) you know what you are getting on the EC. 

post #24 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finndog View Post
 

 

that's why any reasonable person would never book a trip to Jay Peak over Wolf (of course, Wolf is a small "resort" and really not a resort you would necessarily travel to) but again, anyone who has a little sense would know that a resort in Summit county will have more snow or at least better options than Jay Peak.  Its just not that complicated. If you are a NYC skier and can't afford to fly to Colorado (for instance) you know what you are getting on the EC. 

Yeah wolf doesn't even have a hotel. They should get one. 10 miles to nearest hotel and road is a nightmare. Just don't overdo it and create a mega resort with crowds. Maintain small charm. Who can afford a week long vacation in vt, but can't afford to fly to salt lake city or denver and have 100 options? Have you seen the cost of skiing in VT? It's a complete RIP-OFF. It's not like it's cheap. I could see someone saying they can only afford to ski close to nyc for a day trip(ie hunter/ct/catamount berkshires), but once you get into a vacation length stay in vt it end ups being expensive either way. 

post #25 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post

No, but that's my whole point. Jay peak probably averages less than 200 inche instead of 375. That's a HUGE deal. If jay peak and wolf creek were equal distance......where would you go if you wanted powder? According to the numbers jay peak says, there should be hardly any difference between the two. But heck if you guys believe that jay peak gets around the same snowfall as wolf creek.....than obviously the marketing department has got the east coast guys who don't know any better figured out pretty well.. lol Why else would someone book a week long vacation in Northern vt when they live in nyc/nj when they could get a round trip ticket to denver for 200 bucks. Sucker born everyday. 

Well, personally I'd probably hit Asahi Dake in Hokkaido, or some random volcano in Kamchatka, but whatever. Honestly, I'd just follow the weather. Whitefish MT would be the call lately. I have to ask, why do you care? Because you'd like plane loads of NYers at your hill? It happened in Niseko... Place got over run with Aussies. I'd happily go back to see and ski with friends, but I don't know that I'd recommend it to friends as a travel destination any more, and their snowfall totals dwarf yours. smile.gif. Nice troll though! Well played!
post #26 of 105

As a Jay Peak passholder, I can assure you that they lie like a rug. That aside, I do believe that they get the most snow in the East, but it tends to come from the post-frontal orographic lift (the marketing term: Jay Cloud). Their amounts vary wildly based on how you measure it. That snow tends to be very light blower snow that compacts under its own weight. If you measure an inch, clear it away, and then repeat you might hit their advertised numbers. That's how they justify it.

 

As for the market they serve, Jay's largest customer base is actually from Ontario. The second largest market is Quebec. This is in stark contrast to the rest of Vermont which definitely draws predominantly from Connecticut and the Mid-Atlantic. The Boston metro area is another big market, but they have the option of Vermont, New Hampshire, or Maine all within a few hours drive. Given those choices, most choose New Hampshire or Maine where crowds are smaller and prices are lower. New England skiers see Vermont as a novelty to hit occasionally for the variety and experience of overpaying and standing in lift lines. Sometimes we need that to make us appreciate what we have.

post #27 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post


Well, personally I'd probably hit Asahi Dake in Hokkaido, or some random volcano in Kamchatka, but whatever. Honestly, I'd just follow the weather. Whitefish MT would be the call lately. I have to ask, why do you care? Because you'd like plane loads of NYers at your hill? It happened in Niseko... Place got over run with Aussies.

I don't think anyone is going to pay attention to a thread on an internet forum and suddenly decide to change their plans and over-run a mountain. If marketing a ski area was only that easy.....lol Hokkaido looks sick, but that's a killer plane ride.

post #28 of 105
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bliz1978 View Post
 

As a Jay Peak passholder, I can assure you that they lie like a rug. That aside, I do believe that they get the most snow in the East, but it tends to come from the post-frontal orographic lift (the marketing term: Jay Cloud). Their amounts vary wildly based on how you measure it. That snow tends to be very light blower snow that compacts under its own weight. If you measure an inch, clear it away, and then repeat you might hit their advertised numbers. That's how they justify it.

 

As for the market they serve, Jay's largest customer base is actually from Ontario. The second largest market is Quebec. This is in stark contrast to the rest of Vermont which definitely draws predominantly from Connecticut and the Mid-Atlantic. The Boston metro area is another big market, but they have the option of Vermont, New Hampshire, or Maine all within a few hours drive. Given those choices, most choose New Hampshire or Maine where crowds are smaller and prices are lower. New England skiers see Vermont as a novelty to hit occasionally for the variety and experience of overpaying and standing in lift lines. Sometimes we need that to make us appreciate what we have.

Yeah up slope effect on the backside of a low.. It's not just jay that gets it, but the entire spine of the green's. Jay probably maximizes it due to topography. Jay is probably snowiest on east coast

post #29 of 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo Snowmen View Post
 

Yeah up slope effect on the backside of a low.. It's not just jay that gets it, but the entire spine of the green's. Jay probably maximizes it due to topography. Jay is probably snowiest on east coast

Now would be a good time to point out that Jay is probably the place with the most powder days if you are counting a few inches of blower snow on any given day. If you want the big dumps, there are better places. Sugarloaf, Saddleback, and Wildcat consistently get the most 12"+ dumps from Nor'Easters.

post #30 of 105

does not take away the fact wolf crreek is flatter than any mountain in northern vermont.

 

I ski jay  alittle, personally I hate jay because the of the long run out, wind, and glades so open every joey can ski them alot of the same reason wolf creek is not my favorite.

 

I ski stowe everyday, I also skied snowbird for 3 years. Stowe under reports and we still got to to 290 last year. plus we have pitch that wolf creek wishes it had.

 

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151754466197382&set=pb.40145377381.-2207520000.1387749550.&type=3&theater justl ook back at the picture from this year. We live in wet place, sometimes it wet enough and cold enough to snow.

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