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Keeping out of back seat when tired?

post #1 of 25
Thread Starter 
The local mole hill got enough snow today to build a small mogul field. I played with it tonight, and noticed something I've been having a lot of trouble with.

At the end of a mogul run, or carving run in later part of the day, my fore/aft balance goes down the toilet and often slip into backseat without realizing it. Sometime I notice it and pull myself forward again, other time it takes a ruder awakening.

So any good way to keep this from happening, or notice in time to correct myself? (other than get in better shape, lol)
post #2 of 25

If you are in reasonable shape I would say this is a balance problem either caused by boot alignment fore/aft or technique alignment problem.   Without watching you ski its impossible to tell.  My guess would be a combination of both.  You are most likely back a little bit all the time and by the end of the day your muscles know it.

post #3 of 25
Use your contact between your shins and your boot cuff as your sensor to remind yourself to remain forward.
post #4 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post

Use your contact between your shins and your boot cuff as your sensor to remind yourself to remain forward.

 

 

....but.....

 

if your contacting your shins on the front of bumps there is no way you are contacting your skins on the backside of the bump.

 

with out videos is really is impossible to tell you why. I am also certain the problem is present all the time in any situation you are skiing.

post #5 of 25

Some of the worst injuries ski patrols see happen late afternoon because people are skiing aggressively after being too burned out to still be skiing that way.  The late afternoon flat light just before the resort lights (if they have them) kick on also adds to the problem of people getting bounced around late in the day.

 

If you recognize fatigue as being a significant factor on your performance I recommend dialing things back on the way down and taking a break or calling it a day.  The more you ski/better shape you are in, the longer you will be able to go before this happens.  Outside of a closed training course I don't recommend pushing your limits after you start to notice fatigue setting in.

post #6 of 25
Quote:

.... I am also certain the problem is present all the time in any situation you are skiing.

I don't think this is always true.  There were a lot of things wrong with the way I originally learned to ski.  That was a long time ago, and I have done a lot to re-make my skiing in the meantime.  But when I get overly tired, or when visibility is really bad, some of those bad old movements come back to haunt me.

post #7 of 25
I think it is normal that once you are tired, you want to lay back and relax instead of stay forward and be aggressive. I agree with @crgildart that you may want to get some rest when you are tired.
post #8 of 25

You never want your last run to be your last run. Always quit on your next to last run, that greatly reduces your chance in injury. 

post #9 of 25
Lot of good advice in this thread. I am now smart enough to understand that when I am tired my technique goes down the drain. What point is there in continuing to ski lousy and potentially dial in bad habits that need to be corrected the next time out?

My first day out Wednesday and midway the last time down the hill I felt it. Done. Time to hunt down bumps and whales to turn me with no effort to get down the hill with some bit of style and come back to fight another day.

One more run? Back in my 100 + days on the snow years I was always up for one more. Now?

Not for me.
post #10 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

So any good way to keep this from happening, or notice in time to correct myself? (other than get in better shape, lol)

 

Sure. Just get this.

 

Seriously, I've struggled with back seat issues, and when I first get out (and occasionally throughout the day) I'll do some one-legged skiing drills. They help me dial in being centered. Throughout the day when I get off the chair on the way to a run I'll make use of that space to stand tall and very lightly pressure the shin against the front of the boot. I know I've got it when I can make easy, smooth, swaying turns by gently rolling my ankles side to side. Skating and skiing one-legged on cat tracks also helps keep me centered.

 

I guess you were asking for something more real-time, that you can use as a check while you're in the middle of a run, but I find if I do those things regularly they help keep me on track and avoid the back seat. I'm a nobody intermediate, but even the best take a breather and do this kind of stuff to get the right feel back.

 

Bottom line? As others noted, when the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak usually best to quit and live to ski another day. 

 

Easy to say here, of course.  ;-)

post #11 of 25

i'll throw in a thought.

 

When I get tired then the stuff that is not in muscle memory takes over, that's why drills in the flats are so important. If fore/aft are not ingrained then try this. 

 

 

 

 

I posted this in another thread about balance training  several months back but figure it would be appropriate here.  

post #12 of 25
Skiing in the backseat takes energy. Chances are, we've been in the backseat most of the day already. Could be the symptom IS the cause, no?. smile.gif
post #13 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

At the end of a mogul run, or carving run in later part of the day, my fore/aft balance goes down the toilet and often slip into backseat without realizing it. (other than get in better shape, lol)

 

No...only getting in better shape will keep your muscles from fatiguing.  Try Ted Ligety's six minute work out <grin>.

 

post #14 of 25

jz,

 

Speed control takes effort. Like pro bumpers letting it go at the end of their run, doing less speed control uses less effort and makes it easier to stay centered. We can't always get away with that. When I get tired I usually widen the line and keep the speed way down. Occasionally I will use a pivot slip technique with skids up the uphill face of the bumps to an edge set. If you focus on speed control movements on the uphill face of the bumps, you'll at least minimize the performance impact of being in the back seat. But in general, if you're in the back seat, it's time to get out of the bumps. Another tactic I use is to "grind" turns in the moguls. If you do a mini skid all the way through your turns (but especially on the downhill sides of the bumps), you'll need less absorption for speed control (which can easily put you into the back seat when you are tired). The trick here is to slightly back off the edge angle and use slightly more steering to cause the tiny skidding continuously through the turn. If you're in the backseat trying to do this, you'll only skid out the bottom of the turns with more tail push than whole ski skidding.

 

On groomers, a quick foot shuffle before edge change will help detect and fix back seat issues. If you can do the shuffle easily before edge change, then you are centered and ready to go to the next turn. If the shuffle is hard to do then you've started in the backseat and may be recentered after the shuffle.

post #15 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philpug View Post
 

You never want your last run to be your last run. Always quit on your next to last run, that greatly reduces your chance in injury. 

Good advice. 

Reminds me of that old conundrum of an admonition: Repent on the day before you die.

D1

post #16 of 25
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post

I'm a nobody intermediate, but even the best take a breather and do this kind of stuff to get the right feel back.

We are in the same boat, I'm an intermidiot myself. smile.gif

One of the problem with the mogul "field" at the local mole hill is they used half of a run (which is narrow to begin with), so it's only 4 or 5 moguls wide and I'm forced to do the zipperline down, which as you can probably guess isn't the best way to start learning.

Here's an google earth photo from 2010. Remember, local mole hill.



Maybe I should save up for a trip to Stowe and meet the legendary BushwhackerinPA for a lesson. biggrin.gif
post #17 of 25

Others have all given you good advice. From the look of your run why not go in and out of the moguls, one turn in , one turn out to give yourself a break, just be careful going out if others are cruising the groomer part. There is no reason you have to ski the zipper line, round turns skipping very other bump in moguls can lesson the fatigue. As others said if you are really tired then stop don't risk an injury and your season to squeezing out more. I like Kneale's shin contact que for sensing when things aren't working.

post #18 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by markojp View Post

Skiing in the backseat takes energy. Chances are, we've been in the backseat most of the day already. Could be the symptom IS the cause, no?. smile.gif


Hell I've been skiing in the backseat for years. That's why I've got legs of Steel.:D

post #19 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post


Hell I've been skiing in the backseat for years. That's why I've got legs of Steel.biggrin.gif
The monster quads and calves are the only thing I miss from my year and a half in the Boots from Hell. I just don't get the mean-looking quads in my nice upright Lange RS's. Of course, I also don't have frozen/numb/screaming feet full of hot spots, so I guess it's a fair trade-off.
post #20 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 


Hell I've been skiing in the backseat for years. That's why I've got legs of Steel.:D

And knees of cotton? ;)

post #21 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogsie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by slider View Post
 


Hell I've been skiing in the backseat for years. That's why I've got legs of Steel.:D

And knees of cotton? ;)


That's a lot closer to the truth than you know. Crawled underneath a piece of furniture the other day to retrieve a dog toy and could hardly get up.  Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

post #22 of 25

Bad dog! :D

post #23 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagles Pdx View Post
 

 

No...only getting in better shape will keep your muscles from fatiguing.  Try Ted Ligety's six minute work out <grin>.

 

... or learning how to balance and manage the forces of skiing better. 

post #24 of 25

Thread drift has been deleted.  The thread turned when a person giving advise was criticized, rather than the advise he gave.  It spiraled into a series of unacceptable personal attacks and video saber rattling.  So why?

 

Please try to help the original poster and the discussion by focusing on positive skiing tactics, and leave the personal attacks out of it. 


Edited by Cirquerider - 12/22/13 at 8:08pm
post #25 of 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post


....but.....

if your contacting your shins on the front of bumps there is no way you are contacting your skins on the backside of the bump.

with out videos is really is impossible to tell you why. I am also certain the problem is present all the time in any situation you are skiing.

The bolded statement is true, but sliding the feet forward at bump approach is a very momentary loss of that contact. If the shins aren't on the cuffs after that point, all is lost anyway.
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