or Connect
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

wide turn video - Page 5

post #121 of 139

   It provides a force to begin to be applied in the opposite direction the skis are and thus helps enhance femoral rotation...

 

   zenny

post #122 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


Meta what do you mean by "coiling" exactly? What is it and why?

Complete neutral is only achieved if you square the hips. Nobody is saying that is always desirable. Sometimes it is. What is the beef?
This is pretty much summing up the ignorance on this topic in general. Early counter is upper rotation??? Really Teton? It's the dead opposite! How do you figure that?

Can anyone here answer the question of WHY a countered hip is important? If you understand that then you will know why early counter is awesome. Quit trying to think you are supposed to look a certain way. Explain WHY counter matters biomehanically in a ski turn.

 

Yes, I guess I am ignorant.  I have no idea what coiling means, this is the first time I ever heard that term as it refers to skiing.  I still firmly believe that there is no such thing as early counter.  I actually talked with one of our best most technical skiers who is also a PSIA-I examiner about this while two other PSIA-I examiners were eavesdropping.  He agreed with my position that counter is an outcome of keeping the upper body facing in the intended direction of travel through all phases of the turn.  How can you have EARLY counter?  Counter is effective at the appropriate time and develops through the turn.  Therefor any attempt to create counter before it would naturally develop is by definition upper body rotation.  He also agreed that to maintain the illusion of an upper body that stands still while the lower body turns under it requires a counter rotational force between the upper and lower body parts that is canceled out so that the upper body seems to be "anchored".  This is what BTS and I have been saying.  As to why a countered hip is important...  I can think of several reasons, some of which have been touched on.  I really don't want this post to get too long.  None of the advantages of counter require the non-existent early counter.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Matta View Post
 

 

everyone in jackson/alta and snowbird allows their upper body to rotate though every turn I call it the alta turn.....

 

 

countered hips are important for balance(specifically rotational balance)  on our outside skis we gain tons by driving our inside hip towards our outside tip.  its also going to allow our legs to turn more quickly underneath us.

 

so TPJ I am not trying to though you under the bus but if I had to guess you do the "alta" turn which is a great tactical choice for some situations but IMO does not do well in any sort of short turn, or on hardpack.

 

Not everyone...  Certainly the majority of non PSIA locals do.  In fact I worked long and hard to ski like the good skiers I saw around me and I too learned to drive the outside hand through the end of the turn.  It works great on larger turns and on steeps.  It really feels solid at the end of the turn.  The problem is that it messes with the beginning of the next turn.  This is not a problem if you are strong and athletic and don't mind a bit of upper body rotation to get the next turn moving.  There are a lot of very strong skiers making what I call the Troller Turn on hard terrain everyday.  I have found this a very hard habit to break.  Mostly because it works pretty well in the terrain and at the speeds that I like to ski.  The problem is that it's not really efficient and I'm getting older.  I am also professional ski instructor and owe it to my guests to demonstrate and teach the best most efficient movements.  I have been working on it ever since I started with the SS and I think it's really gone...  Mostly:rolleyes.    The things you say in your second paragraph are right on, but I don't see what they have to do with EARLY counter.  I don't feel the wheels of the bus just yet.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


The CSCF is trying to get away from notion of separation/counter/counteracting and instead uses the more performance-oriented idea of coiling. Here's a good one for you to digest: "creating impulse with coiling".

Anyways, Early counter is important. It is basically just holding onto your old counter. Largely, in skiing, your uper body faces down the fall line and skis move around. From fall-line to flat to fall-line then, there is counter-rotation. Some is early, after flat and some is... i guess "late"?, between fall-line and flat?

I don't think the words "skiing into counter" capture the concept, if i even understood what it means, exactly.

 

I don't get how this is early counter if you're saying that it's the old counter.  I don't disagree with what you are saying, I just think the term "early counter" has no meaning.  What people seem to be calling early counter, I would just call counter.  How is it produced early?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Counter (projecting one hip forward and upward compared to the other) pronates the opposite foot.  So if you project your new inside hip up and forward, that movement automatically tips your new outside foot onto its BTE.   You can generate gentle turns on gentle terrain simply by projecting one hip forward and upward, then the other.  

 

 

 

 

"Skiing into Counter" in PSIA language means you start a turn facing more inside the new turn and end it facing more outside that turn.  Facing outside the current turn is the same as facing inside the new turn.  If you consistently end a turn facing (with your hips etc.) more down the hill than your skis, and you slowly switch to facing outside the current turn as it progresses, that's "skiing into counter."  You'll be set up to do the same thing with the next turn.

 

I agree with this.  Just to be clear... In this description we assume that turns are defined as starting and ending at transition.  I also agree with BTS that to hold your upper body as described above requires a specific type of counter rotational force between the upper and lower body segments.  Where and how is counter developed "early" within this description?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

If you choose to square up at the transition, you'll need to establish "early counter."  You won't still be hanging onto the vestiges of the old counter.  You'll get countered earlier than if you "ski into counter as described above.  

 

You can square up then establish early counter and actually end up facing slightly uphill at the start of a new turn.  It lengthens the top of the turn.  Caution:  if people are watching who are critical, they might say you park and ride, especially if you establish all your counter all at once and ride the skis around passively.  In that case they will be right (...an exhilarating feeling, by the way).  


Technically, if you are into verbal precision, that business of facing more down the hill at the beginning of a new turn is (cough...) "rotated."   But for simplicity's sake, and because using upper body rotation to motorize a turn is usually a beginner and intermediate weakness (it's definitely not what is happening in this case), most folks don't describe this as "rotated."  They just say skiing into counter and leave it at that.   

I don't follow you here.  If you square up at transition and then establish counter (late counter?) how do you do that without a rotational movement of the upper body down the hill?  I'm even more baffled by your second paragraph.  How do you square up, establish counter, and end up facing up the hill at the start of the new turn.  Not only does that sound contorted, but where do you find the time to do all that?

 

I am into verbal precision...  I think that facing down the hill more than your skis is counter.  It becomes rotation if it's forced rather than developed.  Hence early counter is upper body rotation.  "Counter" "developed" after squaring up is also upper body rotation.

post #123 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post

...He also agreed that to maintain the illusion of an upper body that stands still while the lower body turns under it requires a counter rotational force between the upper and lower body parts that is canceled out so that the upper body seems to be "anchored".  This is what BTS and I have been saying...

TPJ & BTS,

I am curious about this part above.

Are you able to execute this canceling while on one leg?
post #124 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

TPJ & BTS,

I am curious about this part above.

Are you able to execute this canceling while on one leg?

Don't see why not... assuming you know where your feet are and you know how to use them when you find them.
post #125 of 139
Thanks, HeluvaSkier. So you are able to do pivot slips in a corridor like in the animation on one leg. That's cool. If you do a video again this season it would be great to see those!
post #126 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

If you choose to square up at the transition, you'll need to establish "early counter."  You won't still be hanging onto the vestiges of the old counter.  You'll get countered earlier than if you "ski into counter as described above.  

 

You can square up then establish early counter and actually end up facing slightly uphill at the start of a new turn.  It lengthens the top of the turn.  Caution:  if people are watching who are critical, they might say you park and ride, especially if you establish all your counter all at once and ride the skis around passively.  In that case they will be right (...an exhilarating feeling, by the way).  


Technically, if you are into verbal precision, that business of facing more down the hill at the beginning of a new turn is (cough...) "rotated."   But for simplicity's sake, and because using upper body rotation to motorize a turn is usually a beginner and intermediate weakness (it's definitely not what is happening in this case), most folks don't describe this as "rotated."  They just say skiing into counter and leave it at that.   

I don't follow you here.  If you square up at transition and then establish counter (late counter?) how do you do that without a rotational movement of the upper body down the hill?  I'm even more baffled by your second paragraph.  How do you square up, establish counter, and end up facing up the hill at the start of the new turn.  Not only does that sound contorted, but where do you find the time to do all that?

 

I am into verbal precision...  I think that facing down the hill more than your skis is counter.  It becomes rotation if it's forced rather than developed.  Hence early counter is upper body rotation.  "Counter" "developed" after squaring up is also upper body rotation.

 

Clarification of "early counter" after squaring up (words, words, words.....):

"Counter" by definition means facing the outside of the turn.  

"Rotated" by definition means facing the inside of the turn.

"Squaring up" between turns means your skis are pointing and moving towards the trees, and your hips and shoulders are facing the trees, aka everything is facing across the hill.

"Early counter" means you move your new inside hip (downhill hip) and everything above it forward (while keeping it elevated) -- early, as you initiate the turn.  Call it "hip drive" if you like.  

This may mean, for the nanoseconds you are still traveling across the fall line at the very top of the new turn, that your hips are actually facing a little uphill, but this is only going to happen if you are toodling around and exploring just how long you can extend that top of your turn.  It's an exaggeration, guys. 

 

If you drive your new inside hip forward and up, you will be facing outside the freshly begun turn.  You are by definition countered, not rotated.

Yes, this is a "rotary" action, but it doesn't put you in a "rotated" relationship with your current turn.  It makes you countered, early.

post #127 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgeib View Post

Thanks, HeluvaSkier. So you are able to do pivot slips in a corridor like in the animation on one leg. That's cool. If you do a video again this season it would be great to see those!

 

you know its impossible, I know its impossible although this is where I think I only know it is, and not the reason why. I owuld love to here your thoughts on why it can not be done.

 

 

I can do these one legged(either leg) but my body will follow even if my leg does the first motion.  the abilty to counter effectively in pivot type moves comes from being 2 footed......

post #128 of 139
Yeah, a nit confused here. Can anyone who actually knows post the definitions?

I take it then that early counter means to have the hips pointing to the outside of the turn above the fall line? That seems to be the lnly reasonable meaning given the definition of counter,

I was thinking all the time about separation and counter-acting, i.e. The fact that you merely maintain the separation by continuing to counter-act what the skis are doing, i.e. Att he end of the turn, skis pointing right, hips down - if I do not counteract, as the skis turn to point down, my hips would point left...

If counter means hips pointing to the OUTSIDE as BTS said...
post #129 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidFeet View Post
 

 

Clarification of "early counter" after squaring up (words, words, words.....):

"Counter" by definition means facing the outside of the turn.  

"Rotated" by definition means facing the inside of the turn.

"Squaring up" between turns means your skis are pointing and moving towards the trees, and your hips and shoulders are facing the trees, aka everything is facing across the hill.

"Early counter" means you move your new inside hip (downhill hip) and everything above it forward (while keeping it elevated) -- early, as you initiate the turn.  Call it "hip drive" if you like.  

This may mean, for the nanoseconds you are still traveling across the fall line at the very top of the new turn, that your hips are actually facing a little uphill, but this is only going to happen if you are toodling around and exploring just how long you can extend that top of your turn.  It's an exaggeration, guys. 

 

If you drive your new inside hip forward and up, you will be facing outside the freshly begun turn.  You are by definition countered, not rotated.

Yes, this is a "rotary" action, but it doesn't put you in a "rotated" relationship with your current turn.  It makes you countered, early.

 

Upper body rotation can move in either direction.  If you end your turn in a "rotated" position, using your definition of rotated, your next move will be upper body rotation down the hill to start the turn.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post

Yeah, a nit confused here. Can anyone who actually knows post the definitions?

I take it then that early counter means to have the hips pointing to the outside of the turn above the fall line? That seems to be the lnly reasonable meaning given the definition of counter,

I was thinking all the time about separation and counter-acting, i.e. The fact that you merely maintain the separation by continuing to counter-act what the skis are doing, i.e. Att he end of the turn, skis pointing right, hips down - if I do not counteract, as the skis turn to point down, my hips would point left...

If counter means hips pointing to the OUTSIDE as BTS said...

 

Counter before initiation is pointing to the outside.  The same counter after initiation points to the inside of the new turn. 

post #130 of 139

Teton, its not surprising to me that the PSIA people you admire are ignorant about counter, that is common throughout the industry.  Talk to some hard core racers.

 

The word "early" only gets thrown in there by some, as relative to what PSIAers and other counter-deniers are doing.  

 

Early counter would mean, that compared to PSIA, you manage to get your upper half facing outside of square before the fall line.  If you happened to square up at transition because it was a particularly long traverse perhaps, your early counter could start potentially much sooner.

 

But I would like to say that I'm a lot more interested in the verb.  Counter-ing, or count-action.  The attempt to reach a countered state earlier then the ridiculous "ski into counter" idea which delays it too long.

 

Teton, as you have agreed also that the verb is what you believe is happening, even when the appearance is of a stable upper half...when do you think that should begin?  If you begin counter-acting at the top of the turn, might it sometimes be that you acheive counter only in the bottom of turns (SRT), but perhaps in longer turns you acheive it earlier?

 

I think too many people equate "counter" to mean "facing down the fall line".  That is not the meaning of counter.   Counter is only facing down the fall line in the last phase of a turn.  If you acheive counter earlier (and there can be advantages to doing so), then you will be facing other directions, but always in all cases, a countered hip will be facing outside of square.  If your hip is facing inside of square then you are not countered at all, zip, and you won't be again until you are facing at least slightly towards the side of the skis that are lifted in the air. 

post #131 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

The attempt to reach a countered state earlier then the ridiculous "ski into counter" idea which delays it too long.

 

To quote The Princess Bride, "I do not think that means what you think that means". I'm not 100% sure about this, but I think my SSD was at the very least involved in coining that phrase, and I have always taken it to mean that the counter is driven by what your skis are doing on the snow and not by pulling the skis into a countered position with your muscles if that makes sense. I've never taken it to have anything to do with timing anyway particularly any kind of delay in getting there.

post #132 of 139

Words, words, words.  I doubt that there is much disagreement about anything amongst all of you, it's just the failure of terminology.

post #133 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiMangoJazz View Post

Words, words, words.  I doubt that there is much disagreement about anything amongst all of you, it's just the failure of terminology.

I disagree. wink.gif
post #134 of 139

    I think the main theme here is that you're going to get out of it what you put into it. If you let things (positions) happen on their own then lower performance turns will likely be the result. Conversely, if you get after it and make something happen [in the case of this discussion, perhaps actively adding counter, and sooner] new possibilities will open up (such as enhanced angulation and crisper turns). But it seems this all falls under the idea of dirt (at least for me). I have no problem whatsoever with the word counter, it's skiing into counter that I feel can be misleading as it seems to imply a certain passivity to some, IMO.

 

  I guarantee you that a skilled slalom racer is putting forth some effort in his or her seperation whereas a skilled skier pleasure skiing down a blue run on soft snow making medium radius turns at lowish speeds may not even have to think about it much. 

 

  One size does not fit all--just sayin'...

 

   zenny

post #135 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post


Meta what do you mean by "coiling" exactly? What is it and why?

 

Coiling is turning the lower joints while resisting the turning forces with the upper body - essentially coiling like a spring. Coiling creates torque between your upper and lower body so that you can unwind the lower joints into the next turn. The outcome is lots of potential force. Once you combine with mobility, or "getting long" through the joints early in the turn, you're generating a lot of impulse which, by tipping on edge and balancing over the outside ski, you can harness as speed. 

 

It's a different way of describing counteracting/counter-rotation, and allows skiers (racers) to avoid this notion of squaring up over your skis. 

 

Quote:
Complete neutral is only achieved if you square the hips. Nobody is saying that is always desirable. Sometimes it is. What is the beef?

 

Not a beef; I wanted to understand where you see a use for squaring up with the skis. I see being more square with the skis as useful in really long radius turns like DH, or possibly intermediate parallel turns - but never actually square to the skis at the end of a turn. (I would stay square to the skis if skiing a traverse though, or pointing straight downhill.)

post #136 of 139
Or how about any time you want to be truly rotationally neutral going into a new turn an there is time for it? Why would you want to be rotationally neutral? To avoid unwanted pivots!!!!!

This is not just about terminology SMJ.

I agree with zenny that the ski into counter dogma inspires a certain passivity which is a flawed perspective. You can't ski into counter under a stable core without counteracting at the same time. So the phrase is misleading to begin with even if your intention is to have your upper half facing down the fall line and facing inward at the tops of turns, you still have to use counteraction to make it happen and implying that you can just "ski into it" is just ridiculous. There is more you have to do and that slogan doesn't tell you how to do it, while at the same time making you think you don't have to do anything else.

On top of that it has inspired people to embrace an anticipated turn entry as not only the norm, but some kind of one size fits all way to ski. and to literally demonize earlier proactive counter, to the detriment of all.
post #137 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post


Counter before initiation is pointing to the outside.  The same counter after initiation points to the inside of the new turn. 
you will most likely end with a hip dump if you counter before initiation... Annd even perhaps before the fall line - i will post a vid of my youngest who just figured out what we use the outside ski for as well as how to cheat.... All in one day smile.gif

Edit: here, look at green pants he figured out how to cheat almost between runs... http://youtu.be/B5YQGguzrns
Edited by razie - 1/3/14 at 3:40pm
post #138 of 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

Teton, its not surprising to me that the PSIA people you admire are ignorant about counter, that is common throughout the industry.  Talk to some hard core racers.

 

The word "early" only gets thrown in there by some, as relative to what PSIAers and other counter-deniers are doing.  

 

Early counter would mean, that compared to PSIA, you manage to get your upper half facing outside of square before the fall line.  If you happened to square up at transition because it was a particularly long traverse perhaps, your early counter could start potentially much sooner.

 

But I would like to say that I'm a lot more interested in the verb.  Counter-ing, or count-action.  The attempt to reach a countered state earlier then the ridiculous "ski into counter" idea which delays it too long.

 

Teton, as you have agreed also that the verb is what you believe is happening, even when the appearance is of a stable upper half...when do you think that should begin?  If you begin counter-acting at the top of the turn, might it sometimes be that you acheive counter only in the bottom of turns (SRT), but perhaps in longer turns you acheive it earlier?

 

I think too many people equate "counter" to mean "facing down the fall line".  That is not the meaning of counter.   Counter is only facing down the fall line in the last phase of a turn.  If you acheive counter earlier (and there can be advantages to doing so), then you will be facing other directions, but always in all cases, a countered hip will be facing outside of square.  If your hip is facing inside of square then you are not countered at all, zip, and you won't be again until you are facing at least slightly towards the side of the skis that are lifted in the air. 

 

I think this will be my last post on this...

 

I don't think that you should be so sure about the credentials of the "PSIA people that I admire".  The particular guy that I was speaking of has a racing background and generally considered to be one of the top 5 or so guys in our SS of over 500 people and an extremely technically minded skier.  He is currently an examiner in PSIA-I and a long time AK heli guide.  I know a lot of examiners and while none of them are idiots, even the dogmatic Utahards, some I really don't have time for.

 

I'm not beginning my counter at the top of the turn.  My counter starts as I leave the fall line and ends when I re-enter the fall line in any size turn.  I don't advocate facing down the fall line at initiation, I'm not pretzel boy.  I like the definition of coiling given by Metaphor...  Sounds like what I understand as counter.  I use the spring analogy a lot in lessons.

 

BTW...  I don't get square on traverses.  I teach a bit of counter on a traverse as a means to get more pressure on the outside ski and a way to always be ready to launch off the traverse into a turn.  IMO people get lazy on traverses.

 

TPJ out

post #139 of 139
I think this is my first post on this....

Its quite simple really.
Counter: facing towards the outside
Square: facing straight forwards
Anticipation: facing inside
Couteraction / counter / upper body counter / counter rotation: same thing basicly
Rotation: opposite of above. Usually both hips and upperbody.
Skiing into counter: if you start your turn anticipated to some degree and keep your upper body facing downhill through out the whole turn you will square up at apex and end up countered. Counteraction started at transition if you want to clarify its a movement.
Squaring up at transition: not ending up anticipated at the end of the turn. Involves rotation to some degree.
Skiing squared: skiing without counter or anticipation. Typical reason for unwanted rotation.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Ski Instruction & Coaching