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So, Heluvaskier, you've had your say about those two videos, and others have spoken for and against. Whether the two instructional videos with their introductory demonstrations of drills leading students to making their first carved turns match free skiing or racing by you or WC racers is not the issue. Whether their process teaches others to carve is. You state they are teaching people to ski WRONG.
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier
LF, I'm going to try to be educational here. So let's break it down... Note, I watched these with no sound so I wasn't swayed by any of their commentary.
Bergfex first. The first movement is an up movement immediately followed by hip angulation that parks at the same edge angle for the entire turn. The closest they get to showing movements at the feet is the clear illustration of knee drive. It is all park and ride on the edges and almost all hip dump. Where they don't employ a hip dump they are using knee drive. There is no balance on the edges that would create any semblance of ski performance. As a result, the radius never tightens, and edge angle never increases. By the time the fall line arrives they are stuck, static, and have no choice but to stand up to get out of the turn. No balance. No ski performance.
Agree totally. There was no intention to get a radius that tightens, an edge angle that increases, and therefore no intention to get the skis to bend beyond their initial decambering. You think this is the wrong way to teach. I'm don't think is "wrong." There are different ways of introducing carving, and this is one which you have very strong feelings against. I get that.
Sofa Ski School is up next. So they start out their progression with the hands forward, and the first movement they make is to reach down and touch the knee - immediately dumping the hip. Combine this with the "hip width stance", "push the inside ski forward", and "roll your knees to the inside of the turn" you literally have the hip dumping trifecta that will deliver horrible carving. Again, we see skiing powered by an up move and push-off with absolutely no balance or ski performance. Watch the outside ski grab and release... it isn't doing anything, just like in the example above, but it is much more evident here. These guys seem to point out the risk of a hip dump, but what they fail to realize is that with what they are coaching, hip dump and knee drive are their only options for edging the skis.
I see that you use "hip dumping" in a way different from me. OK, I'll go with that for the purposes of this post. The skier is using angulation at the hips and knee drive to edge the skis. This is park and ride, of course. We agree so far.
This is all park and ride carving. It is NOT, the way to teach beginners. There is a right way to teach a skier to carve and a wrong way. What you're seeing above is the wrong way. The proper way is to begin with stance ski balance drills and incorporate free foot tipping to put the outside ski on edge and thus create the turn. Taking a proper approach, there is no need to unlearn a hip dump because from the beginning the skier is balanced on their BTE and is using their feet/ankles to initiate their turns. Take the first run of the video below as an example of a contrast against the videos from Sofa and BergFex. (video of your skiing follows; dynamic turns at speed).
Calling this way to teach beginner carvers wrong, and saying there is a right way, is just odd. Is this a ethical dilemma? Is there a Bible of skiing somewhere? Do we have Ten Commandments? Is there a skiing Hell we'll go to if we get it wrong? Is there a Savior waiting for us to knock on the door?
..if the skier ever wants performance out of riding an edged ski, they need to unlearn hip dumping and parking and riding. It is building on a foundation made of sand. You are giving horrible coaching advice because of your lack of understanding of a carved turn. There is no need to "gum it up" with progressive anything if you teach the skier how to balance, and how to tip their inside foot. Start with stationary tipping, graduate to lifting the tip [I think you mean tail] of one ski while keeping the tip on the snow while in a straight run, and then add the tipping in garlands. Teach tipping on and off the edges - add this to your garlands and you just taught releasing and engaging carving skis without a hip dump. Once comfortable in garlands in two directions, link turns on very flat terrain. Once that can be done while maintaining balance on the BTE, graduate to adding more tipping and creating a long-leg/short-leg on slightly steeper terrain. If you've taught balance properly, the skier will create angles without a hip dump, while in balance.
Now we're getting somewhere. This is your alternative progression for teaching turning. Good; it offers a way to get people to ski without the excessive angulation at the hip, exactly what I was asking for in my original post. It's sad that it is packaged in such a negative and self-righteous package. This is a progression I am familiar with, and have used. However, this progression as described will not by itself guarantee that a student will be getting "performance" out of the ski, which is the big point fueling your vindictive (it is also thread drift, as ski performance and carving are not the thread topic). Had you posted this progression without all the negative stuff the community might have noticed it more. Think about political campaigns; going negative is not always so effective for promoting your platform.
I would not want to make turns like in these two videos. It is not good carving, end of story. No balance, no ski performance, no foot use, no momentum between turns. Instead of disregarding the experts that you DO have posting here, perhaps you should take it as an opportunity to learn something from them. Just because you can't see anything wrong with the skiing in those two videos doesn't mean that it is correct. It just means you can't see or don't fully understand the deficiencies and how that skiing differs from skiing that has the attributes I noted above.
Of course you wouldn't. You're not a beginner. We all recognize the difference between an instructor doing a demo for beginner carvers and dynamic free-skiing by a skier functioning at his top level of competence. Thank you for posting.