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Let's talk about over-angulating - Page 22

post #631 of 642

TDK's assertion about the knee displacing to create effective tipping is actually quite accurate. The implications of the start at the bottom and work up suggests holding the top of the tibia in place as we evert / invert the feet. That would do little to create any tipping of the boots and skis. If anything keeping the top of the tibia still as we roll the ankles (and laterally move the bottom of the tibia) would actually tip the tibia away from where we want to tip the boots. So as the boot cuff tips towards the intended direction it would only tip until it runs into the tibia and any additional pressure from pressing that tibia into the wrong side of the cuff would take pressure away from the side we would want it. Considering the idea that edge angles for a ski turn are rarely that low, the only reasonable conclusion is we need to allow the knee to move to create those larger edge angles. Thus is it unreasonable to suggest movements should move up the body in a sequential way. Sadly, this discussion about body shaping gets bogged down when the sequential verses simultaneous timing issue enters the discussion. I don't want to revisit that stuff because it ruffles so many feathers but when someone states flatly that the knee moving to create tipping is "so wrong that I don't know where to start", it's worth asking them to prove him wrong. Mind you I am not asking for PSIA, USSA, or CSIA references, I'm asking for the studies where the math and mechanical science would support that statement. Without that supporting evidence it's hard to seriously consider those opinions. 

post #632 of 642

thanks for ruining my fun JASP...


:hissyfit:

post #633 of 642

Not trying to ruin your fun JZ. Just asking for proof after providing some concepts that contradicts the strongly stated opinions being put forth by some of our members. I'm fine with them proving TDK wrong (or me for that matter) but simply saying someone is wrong without showing why needs to be questioned.

post #634 of 642
The knee moves, the foot moves, the boot moves. Where is the muscle activation? If you tip the ski by lifting the arch of the foot, the boot moves with it of course and so does the knee. They are all moving. But there are different ways to use different muscle activations which result in this. When you think about lifting he arch, yes there is a small amount of inversion that happens but the boot also moves in a highly efficient way as that inversion movement activates muscles in the leg that tip the ski, and yes move the knee too. This focus from the feet provides more feel for how much you are tipping the feet and the edge to snow interaction.

Personally I feel that I'm able to move the knee further in the right direction for tipping when I invert the foot inside the boot and tip the boot with a focus from the feet.
post #635 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

 The implications of the start at the bottom and work up suggests holding the top of the tibia in place as we evert / invert the feet.

 

Not at all. Where did you come up with this idea?

post #636 of 642
That should be obvious, you cannot start a move in a zone (body part) and move up to other zones if everything starts at the same time...
Edited by justanotherskipro - 3/7/14 at 5:18pm
post #637 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

That should be obvious, you cannot start a move in a zone (body part) and move up to other zones if everything starts at the same time...

 

Unfortunately, we have yet another example of nugatory, semantic quibbling here that does nothing to advance an understanding of ski technique. The phrase "holding the top of the tibia in place" means exerting an effort to stop the top of the tibia moving. You know that's bunk, or at least should.

post #638 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

That should be obvious, you cannot start a move in a zone (body part) and move up to other zones if everything starts at the same time...

 

Unfortunately, we have yet another example of nugatory, semantic quibbling here that does nothing to advance an understanding of ski technique. The phrase "holding the top of the tibia in place" means exerting an effort to stop the top of the tibia moving. You know that's bunk, or at least should.

 

If I don't get this wrong, the instruction to focus on the "micro" movement of tipping the foot, gives rise to doing everything else needed to initiate a good turn.  Go ski. Think about tipping the feet and let the knee move inward on the turn as your hip naturally moves across the fall-line to give power to the turn.  Feel the G's build, then release the edge starting at the ankles...knees...hip...add counter in the upper body.  Do this for a while and the "kinetic chain" becomes more clear.  Add in fore and aft movements and pretty soon you're skiing. 

 

The problem with these threads is the attempt to isolate a single movement seems to become an end in itself.  It is only part of a dynamic balancing act, and the purpose of isolating movements is to make you more aware of them.  Foot tipping is the most subtle of the body movements.  IT WILL make you a better skier, but it does not occur by itself.

 

Carry on.

post #639 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

Not trying to ruin your fun JZ. Just asking for proof after providing some concepts that contradicts the strongly stated opinions being put forth by some of our members. I'm fine with them proving TDK wrong (or me for that matter) but simply saying someone is wrong without showing why needs to be questioned.

I know, I have the same issue with these posts. I was waiting for an explanation before giving my side of the story! 

;)

post #640 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirquerider View Post
 

 

If I don't get this wrong, the instruction to focus on the "micro" movement of tipping the foot, gives rise to doing everything else needed to initiate a good turn.  Go ski. Think about tipping the feet and let the knee move inward on the turn as your hip naturally moves across the fall-line to give power to the turn.  Feel the G's build, then release the edge starting at the ankles...knees...hip...add counter in the upper body.  Do this for a while and the "kinetic chain" becomes more clear.  Add in fore and aft movements and pretty soon you're skiing. 

 

The problem with these threads is the attempt to isolate a single movement seems to become an end in itself.  It is only part of a dynamic balancing act, and the purpose of isolating movements is to make you more aware of them.  Foot tipping is the most subtle of the body movements.  IT WILL make you a better skier, but it does not occur by itself.

 

Carry on.

 

You don't get this wrong. Excellent summary of thousands of posts describing how to ski!

post #641 of 642
HDN, many students take what we say too literally and they forget the overarching need for the entire body to participate in our balancing and turning efforts.
post #642 of 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by 80deg16minW View Post

Have fun with this.......
the reason i was asking if it is from the U14 race is because the blue monkey behind the flag is mine smile.gif what are the odds eh?
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