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"High C edging" confusion

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 

First of all lets get two things clear:

1. I'm not an instructor but I regularly read this forum in search of constant improvement. 
2. English is not my native language so I might misunderstood some concepts

 

In several threads here I've read about "High C edging" and I decided to give it a try. If I understood correct the term "high C" is used to refer top half of the turn before fall line.

 

And here is how my attempt passed. I picked up a gentle slope where I can arc to arc without a worry about getting too much speed. The turns in my attempts were medium sized on SL skis.So what confuses me is that when I try edging skis early after transition I constantly get feeling of park and ride. I'm quite confident about that because I spent some time to get rid of it and I know how it feels.

 

In opposite - if I am more patient at the beginning I'm able to progressively build relatively high angles and get more tight turn shape.

 

So can you guys help me to sort it out?

post #2 of 22
HighC edging indeed refers to edging early and especially to avoid skidding through the first half of the turn, The fact that you can (if indeed, but most likely) leave sine wave lines in the snow on a green run, means that you were effectively edging in the high-c.

I do like the term high-c, it has snuck into my language. It is the best because it invokes an immediate good visual, as opposed to all other terms I have seen used.

Back to the sine wave... If you were constantly moving, then It was not park and ride.

However, the amplitude would most likely be small, meaning a slightly snaking line, mostly in the fall line. Speed and edging and turn radius are tightly correlated. The point is that to edge more, you need less radius, more frequency or to go out of the fall Iine that is. The speed would be corresponding and the force on your body corresponding as well, also with the time it takes to produce that turn.

Park and ride refers to riding around the turn, not in a traverse.

Progressive edging will progressively tighten the radius of the turn.

I am trying to paint a picture of where you keep increasing edge angles, tightening the turn in the high-c and then the low-c, then take your time transitioning and repeating it on the other side... Not sure I managed to do so...
Edited by razie - 12/10/13 at 7:46pm
post #3 of 22
Thread Starter 

I'll try to describe it better, What I'm feeling is that when I try edging more in the beginning I'm kind of stuck to certain degree early in the turn and I'm not able to reach higher angles and tighten arc later. Might be I'm overdoing it?

 

In both cases there is no skidding it the top of the turn judging on my tracks.

post #4 of 22
Well, to be sure, there is more edging early than late, meaning that you edge faster in the beginning to get the skis to bend int he proper C shape and then there is less room available for edging. In the second of the turn other things keep it more dynamic, like increasing ounter-rotation and more angulation etc. these also contribute to tightening the turn.

In that sense, make sure you are not park-riding through the turn. Even if your edging is high already, keep increasing the counter-rotation and also some angulation helps tightening it further, adding even more energy to the turn.
post #5 of 22

The idea is to engage the edge and get pressure developed before the fall line.  Most people can't do this at all.  It sounds like you can.  The most effective way to remain dynamic is to progressively increase edge angle from transition to fall line and progressively decrease edge angle from fall line to transition.  This keeps things moving and avoids "park & ride".  

 

It sounds like you are trying too hard and develop your edge angles too fast using up your range of motion before the fall line and have no option left except for some park & ride.  Be patient and progressive.

post #6 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

...  Most people can't do this at all.  It sounds like you can. ...

 

I doubt it. From what I read this is high level skill and I don't think I'm close to be an expert.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by tetonpwdrjunkie View Post
 

... The most effective way to remain dynamic is to progressively increase edge angle from transition to fall line and progressively decrease edge angle from fall line to transition.  This keeps things moving and avoids "park & ride"...

This make sense. Seems like I'm rushing too hard too early. So I have to find balance between being too passive and being abrupt.

post #7 of 22

High-C "edging" is actually High-C Engagement. It is NOT High-C Pressure. High-C Engagement refers to rolling the skis onto their new edges and establishing the new edge early in the turn without any active pivoting or twisting of the feet. High-C Pressure means that you're rolling onto your new edges and pushing on the snow before the fall line... The skier should not create the "push" on the snow in a turn; gravity and turn-to-turn  momentum creates the push. High-C Pressure is wrong. High-C Engagement is good [speaking broadly].

 

So, in order to gain High-C Engagement you need to be able to tip your skis onto their new edges before the fall line. In order to do this, you must be in a slightly flexed transition, or you cannot roll your skis into the new turn. Those who do not understand the movements and timing often end up flexed, in the back-seat, and pushing [extending] in the top of the turn trying to create pressure and get their skis to turn. This is what gives the feeling of being locked; because you're rushing extension, and you've let your skis get in front of you.

 

Probably the two most important things are to hold your feet back while flexed, and NOT rush extending your outside leg into the turn. Do not try to create pressure. Patience is key; engage and wait for the turn to happen; allow gravity and momentum to load the skis, and then release the turn in the new direction by flexing the leg that you just extended into the turn. Despite waiting for the turn to happen, the skis are actually working while even lightly engaged in the top of the turn, and it allows the pressure to be transferred to higher in the turn [apex versus lower-C] so the skier can release earlier, get to the next turn, and repeat.

post #8 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

High-C "edging" is actually High-C Engagement. It is NOT High-C Pressure. High-C Engagement refers to rolling the skis onto their new edges and establishing the new edge early in the turn without any active pivoting or twisting of the feet. High-C Pressure means that you're rolling onto your new edges and pushing on the snow before the fall line... The skier should not create the "push" on the snow in a turn; gravity and turn-to-turn  momentum creates the push. High-C Pressure is wrong. High-C Engagement is good [speaking broadly].

Start to understand it better. Here is my video taken a year ago. At 0:31 there is close-up sequence on my transition. Can you describe it as High-C Engagement? The skiing in the video is not nearly good as I wanted to be but it is after company's Christmas party :-) so don't be too harsh on me 

 

post #9 of 22

That video is really hard to MA, but it looks like a push originated from further back. In order to properly MA, I would need to see a third-person video of you approaching, and passing the camera.

post #10 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

High-C "edging" is actually High-C Engagement. It is NOT High-C Pressure. High-C Engagement refers to rolling the skis onto their new edges and establishing the new edge early in the turn without any active pivoting or twisting of the feet. High-C Pressure means that you're rolling onto your new edges and pushing on the snow before the fall line... The skier should not create the "push" on the snow in a turn; gravity and turn-to-turn  momentum creates the push. High-C Pressure is wrong. High-C Engagement is good [speaking broadly].

 

So, in order to gain High-C Engagement you need to be able to tip your skis onto their new edges before the fall line. In order to do this, you must be in a slightly flexed transition, or you cannot roll your skis into the new turn. Those who do not understand the movements and timing often end up flexed, in the back-seat, and pushing [extending] in the top of the turn trying to create pressure and get their skis to turn. This is what gives the feeling of being locked; because you're rushing extension, and you've let your skis get in front of you.

 

Probably the two most important things are to hold your feet back while flexed, and NOT rush extending your outside leg into the turn. Do not try to create pressure. Patience is key; engage and wait for the turn to happen; allow gravity and momentum to load the skis, and then release the turn in the new direction by flexing the leg that you just extended into the turn. Despite waiting for the turn to happen, the skis are actually working while even lightly engaged in the top of the turn, and it allows the pressure to be transferred to higher in the turn [apex versus lower-C] so the skier can release earlier, get to the next turn, and repeat.
 

Now I have to go and delete my post about 80/20 pressure.  :)   Would you describe this as being progressive with your tipping?  The red is really what I'm looking for.  Well said. 

post #11 of 22

I don't think progressive is the best way to describe tipping in this particular situation. Sure, it builds, but tipping is certainly not linear in rate of application to a turn - hence the patience/waiting. In a GS turn this feels like an eternity (transitions become very long while the turn is instantaneous; because you wait and wait wait and then come inside all at once very aggressively), but the result is a tighter radius turn, because you have to get your tipping done in a smaller corridor - and load the ski in a shorter duration as a result. Watch some of my skiing on steeper terrain and calculate the amount of time spent with a loaded ski versus the time spent without a loaded ski -  a lot more time is spent setting up the turn than is actually spent in it.

post #12 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

I don't think progressive is the best way to describe tipping in this particular situation. Sure, it builds, but tipping is certainly not linear in rate of application to a turn - hence the patience/waiting. In a GS turn this feels like an eternity (transitions become very long while the turn is instantaneous; because you wait and wait wait and then come inside all at once very aggressively), but the result is a tighter radius turn, because you have to get your tipping done in a smaller corridor - and load the ski in a shorter duration as a result. Watch some of my skiing on steeper terrain and calculate the amount of time spent with a loaded ski versus the time spent without a loaded ski -  a lot more time is spent setting up the turn than is actually spent in it.

 

So far, I think what you are saying describes the sensations I had the other day extremely well.  Nothing really changed from easy flats, to steep and deep, bumps and flat-light groomers.  IT was a 'one-stop-shop' and I could choose any line and speed I wanted.

 

So, have a slightly flexed outside leg, don't rush to apex, get inside aggressively, tipping creates pressure and rotary, do it again?  This sounds joyfully familiar to me.  I can almost feel the pressure dissipate off my straight outside leg as I speak.   I disagree that the other way is 'wrong', this way is just better.  :)


Edited by Crud Buster - 12/10/13 at 11:18pm
post #13 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post
 

That video is really hard to MA, but it looks like a push originated from further back. In order to properly MA, I would need to see a third-person video of you approaching, and passing the camera.

I know that it is not proper video for MA. But I did not ask for that. I did some frame captures from the time segment I refer.

Frame 1: on the old edges, pointing across the hill;

Frame 2: flat on the ski pointed across the hill

Frame 3: ski on new edges before fall line

Frame 4: ski on new edges at fall line

Frame 5: ski on new edges after fall line

 

So my question is: can we call this high-c engagement since there is clear edging before fall line?

 

post #14 of 22

PeteW, before anyone else talks about that stem entry, it probably isn't a stem entry.

Your camera lens is very close to two parallel skis.  

You know how railroad tracks, real ones, appear to converge in the distance if you stand in the middle of the tracks?

Your POV lens is exaggerating this effect and distorting the way your skis are positioned relative to each other.  

Your skis LOOK like they are in a significant wedge at the start of your turns, but I bet they aren't.

 

So when folks discuss how you are pushing that new outside ski out to start a turn, they might be basing that on your lens distortion.

Get another video with the lens farther away looking at your entire body and skis.  

Put that POV camera on someone else's head, or use another camera held by someone standing down the trail as you ski down and past them.

 

This video's purpose is to show what you saw ahead.  The distortion built into the lens is supposed to help with that purpose.  

But it will not reveal anything accurate about your legs, your skis, or your upper body. 


Edited by LiquidFeet - 12/11/13 at 6:01am
post #15 of 22
Thread Starter 

LiquidFeet, thanks for clarifying issue with the distortion. I can confirm that my skis are parallel and the wedge look is because of the camera lenses. 

 

I did that video for fun not for MA. I post it here just to show exactly when edging occurs because reading Heluva's post I have a feeling that I've already achieved some high-c engagement and entire thread is "much ado about nothing".

 

I just want to be sure if I'm right. 

post #16 of 22
PeteW,
Ideally, there would be another frame between 2 and 3 to see what is happening as you change edges, but yes it appears you are getting some pre-fall line engagement. Your angle to the fall line does not look steep (could be terrain dependent), meaning you aren't getting a lot of offset in your turns, so engaging early in the turn is easier. Any further comments would be speculation.
Cheers.
post #17 of 22

Pete, High C engagement becomes more difficult when you are on a slope that requires speed control. Carving a flat slope means high C engagement almost by default. 

When it is steeper it is very common to see skiers that do nothing in the high C and set their edges hard at or after the fall line. I think this is what most of the high-C discussions you have seen are coming from. 

post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post

... Your angle to the fall line does not look steep (could be terrain dependent)...

Yes it is a gentle slope. So now I have to bring it to more challenging terrain :eek

post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteW View Post

Yes it is a gentle slope. So now I have to bring it to more challenging terrain " src="/img/vbsmilies/smilies/eek.gif">

 



Correct... and as Jamt noted above, steep terrain is what separates the haves from the have-nots when it comes to early engagement.
post #20 of 22

Helluva an Jamt, great comments!  Thumbs Up

 

I'll just add a couple points...  hi-C does not necessarily mean no skidding.  It means the ski is engaged, bent and steering the skier on a round turn path, starting as high as possible.  That could be arcing, or it could be brushed a bit for speed control.   The way to distinguish the difference between a nicely brushed hi-C and say a pivoty skiddy thing, is whether the tail is progressively fanning out, or if the skis are drastically pivoting such that they are changing the direction they are pointing faster then they are redirecting the skier on a curved path.  Those things flag lack of edge engagement and lack of hi-C turn shape.  If the uphill ski stems, that's also a sign of lost high-C.

 

Helluva is absolutely right about avoiding "pushing" movements to create pressure, but pressure development is necessary, its a question of how.  Do it wrong and you'll screw up hi-C.  Ski into the pressure, rather than trying to push with your feet.  Getting "upside down" means someone skiing behind you could see the bottoms of your skis before you get to the fall line.

 

If you are going slow, you will have to actively angulate more and sooner in order to stay in balance, otherwise you will probably fall down the hill as you show the bases of your skis to the guys behind you.  As you pick up more speed, you can delay angulation a bit, you can create turn forces by getting your skis to bend, and ski into that bend, to create those pressure forces that will get you upside down and not falling down.  Its very good practice to see if you can get upside down at slow speed.   Many great comments here about developing a finesse for progressively developing edge angles, even at big speed.  A bit of early angulation helps to do that better if you are trying to get upside down.  This provides a way to ski forward into the bent ski, rather than falling down the hill and hoping the ski will bend and catch up to you sometime before the apex.  If you are progressively developing edge angles, then the ski also bends progressively, so a bit of early angulation will enable you to be in high-c, with engagement, upside down...but progressively.

 

It is possible to get a little bit upside down with an extension move, as endorsed by many, particularly at speed.  However, you can really get a lot more upside down, as Helluva pointed out, by flexing to release the downhill leg and tipping it like crazy to develop edge angles and ski into the pressure.   When you extend yourself down the hill, you do move your CoM down the hill and you do get an initial bit of pressure, but then once you've used up your range of motion, you will lose pressure.  So there is much more of a performance limit there in terms of radical upside downedness.  Conversely, flexing to release the downhill leg moves your CoM across without having to push yourself there.  Skiing forward into the pressure rather than pushing your leg to get it, creates a more sustainable pressure state as you develop hi-C turn shape.   

 

Flexing to release is also generally more conducive to early angulation, as Helluva pointed out, which at slower speeds is crucial for getting upside down high-C turn shape.

post #21 of 22

I think some of the confusion is that turns are rarely 'C' shaped and not that often upside down. Why isn't it "High 'S'"?

Look at the Berger video. How many are upside down or 'C' shaped? Some of the transitions he's even in the air.

So, it's really early edging we're talking about.

post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeluvaSkier View Post


Correct... and as Jamt noted above, steep terrain is what separates the haves from the have-nots when it comes to early engagement.

Darn it - i can do it what feels like properly only up to a blue run.... Does that make me a what, a have-some?
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