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Dosiflexion - Best boot set up for large ROM

post #1 of 10
Thread Starter 

Hi,

I have a lot of flex at the ankle and was curious what the best boot and binding set up would be to deal with this.

I have read many conclusions on limited dorsiflexion but very little on extended flex. I cant qualify the amount but multiple boot fitters have commented on it but not been clear on the best setup.

The reason I ask is that I have a lot of problems being centered and staying there, I tend to get back but when I flex forward I feel like I will go over the bars. I compensate by breaking at the waist. My boots are 120 flex (vacuum ranger) and I weigh 170#. The tighter I make the boots cuff the better I ski which I believe stiffens them. Right now the forward lean is fairly upright. I typically ski on a Look PX12 which has a fairly big ramp I believe (with my 315mm BSL).

Thanks

post #2 of 10

There is talk that a stiffer boot is better for someone with substantial ROM in dorsiflexion, but personally I dissent.  Although there are others here who will make a good argument and you should certainly listen to the viewpoint.

 

I think the stance the boot/binding combination puts you in is more important and your complaint sounds to me like it could have one or both of two causes; either your bindings are to far back which forces you to exaggerate a forward body position that is hard to maintain or you have to much boot ramp or binding delta.

 

You could experiment with ramp easily by putting a shim between the binding AFD and the boot.  However, remember this dramatically increases friction in the system and almost certainly acts to substantially increase the toe DIN beyond the safe range.  so if you try ski easy runs where you are unlikely to make a mistake.

 

 

Lou

post #3 of 10
Thread Starter 

Lou, I have tried some gross changes too see what happens. I took the riser from under the heal of my PX12 bindings which lowered the heal by about 6mm and it was very hard to ski. I only tried 2 runs but it did not feel good at all.

As to binding position, I typical mount on the line and i tried some demo bindings last year and moved up and back to see what I liked and at the end of the day on a pair of S7's i ended up back on the line. I am on a bonifide now mounted on the line.

If I tried a shim under my toe piece would plexy or some slippery material be a good choice? I am assuming a thin 2 or 3 mm to start?

I did find an interesting thread on here from 06 about dorsiflexion but I am not sure I came away any the wiser.

http://www.epicski.com/t/47351/dorsiflexion-and-turning-balance

Thanks

post #4 of 10

When you had the Vacuum Ranger molded, what setting did the boot guy have the knee rest set on?



 



What is the circumference of your calf at the top of the liner?



 



I would take the other position to what Lou said about using a stiffer boot, as a softer one would allow you to over flex the boot shell and get way out on the front of the ski as you loaded it in a turn.  At your weight and in that boot, I would doubt that it is too stiff.



 



You said the boot is fairly upright---could you measure the amount of forward lean by placing the heel of the boot against a vertical wall and measure from the wall to the liner at the top of the shell.



 



mike


Edited by miketsc - 12/10/13 at 12:42pm
post #5 of 10
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by miketsc View Post
 

When you had the Vacuum Ranger molded, what setting did the boot guy have the knee rest set on?

 

 

 

What is the circumference of your calf at the top of the liner?

 

 

 

I would take the other position to what Lou said about using a stiffer boot, as a softer one would allow you to over flex the boot shell and get way out on the front of the ski as you loaded it in a turn.  At your weight and in that boot, I would doubt that it is too stiff.

 

 

 

You said the boot is fairly upright---could you measure the amount of forward lean by placing the heel of the boot against a vertical wall and measure from the wall to the liner at the top of the shell.

 

 

 

mike

Mike, I dont remember what the knee position was but I recall it was fairly upright.

My calf is about 14" at the top of the liner.

The boot top where the liner meets is about 2.5" from the wall. The boot has a spoiler and that is in the down position (less forward lean).

Any clues?

post #6 of 10

Installing a toe lift has exactly the same effect as removing the heel lift so if you didn't like the latter you won't like the former.  Exactly what was the sensation that made it hard to ski?

 

Lou

post #7 of 10

Hi again,

 

2.5 inches equals 63.5mm so you boot still has the factory setting.

 

with the spoiler removed your boot would have  50mm of forward lean from the factory.  Remove the spoiler, You will have too little forward lean at this position, BUT

 

You should need between 50 and 52mm of forward lean-----I suggest you should fabricate 6 pieces of duck tape 4 inches long by 2 inches wide by 5 layers thick. 

5 layers will equal 1mm of thickness per piece of tape.  make 3 of these per boot and stick them on the outside of your boots.  you will then have them with you out on the hill.

 

Use these pieces of tape as an incremental spoiler, to be added as you ski----go ski---as you ski, feel for whether or not your uphill ski is releasing prior to the initiation phase of each turn.

if not releasing, add a layer of tape---feel for the release,

if not add another layer of tape and so on.  You should find a point where the skis smoothly enter the next turn, this will depend on the length of your lower leg and the girth of your calf combined. 

 

just a suggestion.

 

removing the heel lift, took you to a "too upright" position which caused you to ski on your heels at initiation.

taking the spoiler out will do the same, but as you add the tape you will find the correct centered up position.

 

good luck

 

mike

post #8 of 10
Thread Starter 

Mike, thank you for the guidance, this sounds like a logical way to figure this out. Interesting that the boots are in the factory position, I guess if the tech does not know any different why change it. I will hopefully ski this weekend and I will let you know. Very excited to try.

I assume if I find a more dialed in cuff angle I can get the boots recooked and changed?

AND I now know that 5 x duct tape = 1mm, super useful.

post #9 of 10

It will be hard for a tech to cook and mold the boots to a particular position,  you will still end up with tape in there so why bother.

 

mike

post #10 of 10
Thread Starter 

Well off I went to Mammoth with a bunch of ideas and I learned a lot but nothing I was looking for. In short I changed way to many things at once and got wrapped around the axle.

 

I removed the spoiler from the boots and made 2 x 1mm spacers for each boot to put in place of the spoiler.

I mounted up a brand new pair of Bushwackers with a Head demo binding so I could move the mount position.

I put a 2mm spacer under the toe binding on a pair of Bonafides (did not like the risk of packing under my boot and not releasing or pre-releasing)

 

Drove off all excited to learn something.

 

Spent most of the first day on the new Bushwackers and tried all the available combinations of spacers behind the liner. Also moved the mount forward a couple boot sizes with various spacer combinations. I could not get over the sweetspot of the ski and it was unstable with all the available combinations.

I found that with the original spoiler in place and the ski one boot size forward it was skiable but it was far from stable and I could not get it to turn well on the manmade chop over hardpack. It broke loose from the tail every turn and bounced around, not a pretty sight. I felt like giving up skiing, I had no clue what was going on.

Last run of the day i go back to the car and get the bones with the 2mm toe lift (mounted on the line). Suddenly I can ski again although by now I have lost all confidence and cant tell much about the spacer because I am confused as hell.

Next day i remove the 2mm toe spacer and go off to the hill and ski now with everything back to stock. I remember why I love the bones, thing rips at high speed and does not really care what crud is in front of it, super stable GS turns and I have a big smile on my face. Same snow conditions as the day before. WTF?

I obviously still have an issue getting centered and staying there, this is where I came in to this post but I now dont think it is a boot problem. I spend my day 2 double pole planting and working to get centered BEFORE I start to drop into the turn. Things are not perfect but I am fairly clear this is a driver problem nothing more.

Last run of the day I go back to the car and get the Bushwackers. I moved the binding back to the line so I have a fair comparison to the bones. It still felt like I was not in control and the ski wanted to break loose at every opportunity. It felt like a toy ski not a real ski like the bones. I did not dare push the speed as I did not want to get hurt. I checked the tune of the skis and I think it was good, they were new and felt sharp, no burr.

I suspect I may be overpowering the front of the ski as one of my many technique issues but I would have expected the Bushwacker to take it like a man, not get all squirly.

So, I have a pair of 180 wackers with new Head bindings for sale, only used one day.

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