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MA request, short crappy video

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
New video, pivot turns, not sure if it's because of the camera angle or what, but I seem to have a bit too much counter/anglulation at times.




So finally got a video after 5 years of skiing, pretty short and not good angle, but it'll have to do for now redface.gif

It's my only run of the day (spent almost 4 hours sliding backward on bunny hill). No warm up, so I'm definitely not in the rhythm and did not open up as much as I'd like (higher angle and more dynamic). But I figure it would show my weakness the best, so here we go.

No hold backs, let the flogging begin. eek.gif

-
Edited by jzmtl - 2/2/14 at 8:09pm
post #2 of 24
It's hard to judge from the video, but I think what you say about a lack of dynamism is on the money. You are carving nicely, but a bit more energy and dynamism is needed to get to the next level. I would work on:

Reaching more actively for pole plants. This will keep you working forward and in longer radius turns help your upper body follow more with the skis (with less counter), even if the pole plant itself is just a light touch.

Stand up less in the transition in shorter turns. Bend the knees more and take the legs under your body rather than lifting your body up over your legs.

I'll be interested to read some other replies...

M
post #3 of 24

jz,

 

You are getting some incredibly nice angulation angles in this clip. It's too bad you did not have more people on the slopes to share these turns with.

 

This is from before you reach the fall line. See how the body from the waist up is vertical? This is textbook form.

 

This is after you've passed the fall line. See how the upper body has begun to lean into the next turn? You have begun the release of the old turn with an upper body lean. You've also created counter (see the difference between where the skis are pointing and where the chest is pointing?) very early in the turn. From this point in the turn all the way into the release for the next turn, no additional is created (although it be hard to create too much more). This approach clearly works. But as you suspect performance is being "left on the table". My three recommendations are to:

1) Steer into counter through turn finish

2) Tip the boots for turn initiation and control of turn shape

3) Let the hips flow through the turn instead of letting the shoulders flow through into a lean

 

Try the picture frame drill. Hold both poles in the middle of the pole instead of the grip. Hold them up so that they "frame" an object at the bottom of the slope. Start with short radius turns keeping your upper body square to the target object, keeping the object "framed" in between the poles. Since the upper body is not turning at all (if the turns are short enough), this should be easy. Gradually widen out the turns so that keeping the object framed is harder and harder to do. At the point where it becomes difficult to do, focus on how the relationship of the orientation of the skis varies to the orientation of the upper body. The upper body turns out of the fall line just like the skis do, just not as much. In the fall line, both point in the same direction. You need to take this movement pattern back to your normal skiing.

 

When you get high angulation angles, it is very easy to add boot tipping to increase the ski edge angle and get snappier turns. Try playing with tipping your boots onto higher edge angles at the 1/4 point of your turns (10:30/1:30 on a clock face where 3:00/9:00 in the fall line). If you have trouble doing this try doing uphill traverses to a stop where you vary the shape of the uphill turn only through boot tipping - no steering). This is the movement we want to add to initiate your edge release (i.e. 11:30/12:30 point in your turns). Note: it won't work well if you are not countered.

 

If you initiate the turns with lower body tipping instead of upper body leaning, you'll be able to pull the hips across the skis/let the hips flow across the skis instead of using shoulder lean to pull weight across the skis to the inside of the new turn. This will drive higher edge angles earlier in the turn and let you add more shape and dynamicism to turns that are more than ok to start with.

post #4 of 24

Very nice skiing. In only 5 years! Thats pritty awsome. You have the basics down. Good. Now join a race team and start skiing gates. I like your flow and your angulation. Nice clean tracks also. Try to come out a bit stronger out of the turn. Now you are pritty much just changing direction. You should be accellerating. Work harder. Thats all something you will learn by doing so keep on practising and be proud of yourself. Are you teaching own or others kids on the bunny hill?

post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 
Rewatching the video, it looks like I have a bit of A frame and hand position isn't as stable as I'd like. I can eliminate the A frame if I pay attention to it, but need to ingrain that into muscle memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post

Very nice skiing. In only 5 years! Thats pritty awsome. You have the basics down. Good. Now join a race team and start skiing gates. I like your flow and your angulation. Nice clean tracks also. Try to come out a bit stronger out of the turn. Now you are pritty much just changing direction. You should be accellerating. Work harder. Thats all something you will learn by doing so keep on practising and be proud of yourself. Are you teaching own or others kids on the bunny hill?

Teaching a first timer friend, and act like a bumpstop (good thing she's light!), never done so much backward sliding in my life.

I usually carry a bit of speed onto this slope, this time I had to stop on top to let her know that I'm coming, so without a bit of speed I find it hard to have pop at end of turn/accelerate into new one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRusty View Post


1) Steer into counter through turn finish

If you initiate the turns with lower body tipping instead of upper body leaning, you'll be able to pull the hips across the skis/let the hips flow across the skis instead of using shoulder lean to pull weight across the skis to the inside of the new turn. This will drive higher edge angles earlier in the turn and let you add more shape and dynamicism to turns that are more than ok to start with.

Could you explain these two parts a bit more?

Edit, I think I see what you are saying on the 2nd part. In the latter half of a turn (i.e. your 2nd screen capture), my shoulder is already leading the lean into the new turn. After I loosen up I usually have more edge angle, so it's possible that I'm angulating the same amount despite the lower edge angle, thus tipping the upper body pass the vertical axis?
Edited by jzmtl - 12/8/13 at 11:16pm
post #6 of 24

jz,

 

At the end of a turn you want to have your upper body facing more down the hill than where the skis are pointing (lower body). We call this counter. In the middle of the turn we want the skis and the upper body both facing down the hill. Therefore, from the middle of the turn to the end of the turn we want to "Create" counter. From the middle of the turn, if the shoulders follow the skis out of the fall line, we can create counter by turning our shoulders to face down the hill. Yuk! If we let the skis turn more across the hill than our shoulders (faster rotation/steering of the skis out of the fall line than the shoulders, then an increasing amount of counter will be created as the turn progresses. For short radius turns, the shoulders hardly ever change from pointing straight down the hill. At the turn size increases the shoulders should start turning more, but just less than the skis do.

 

If you keep your upper and lower body aligned straight (i.e. a straight line from between your heels through your belly button to your chin), you can create edge angles by leaning. We call this "inclination". If you keep your upper body upright but have your lower body leaning, we call this angulation (the line from between your heels to your chin would bend at the belt buckle/belly button). If you are angulated, it is much easier to adjust the amount of edge angle through tipping the boots (or wiggling the knees). If you use this movement to start turns vs a leaning movement, you can increase performance. 

 

Try this at home. Stand more than arms length away from a wall facing sideways. Lean sideways with a straight body and catch yourself with one had against the wall. Increase lean by moving the hand lower along the wall. This is how you turn today. Try it again standing just arms length away. You can't lean as much. but you can bend your knees and move them closer to the wall to get your feet on higher edge angles. That's the movement I want you to use to start your turns.

post #7 of 24

Good skiing at 5 years. You appear to be maintaining a consistent speed, and it appears that you're balanced fore-aft over the ski. You also are clearly getting on edge! 

 

I have a hard time seeing how your skis are performing, given the blurry footage. But I do notice: To initiate your turns, you're using an aggressive push to throw your mass over your skis. Once you're over the edge, you put yourself into a position and hold it for the carve. These two issues are related. You need the aggressive release because you're holding yourself in one position. What I'd suggest is: 

 

  • Mobilize your lower joints. Do some shuffle turns to wake up those joints. Hop throughout the turn. Also, skiing more bumps will help you get out of any stiff or static positions. 
  • Learn to turn with the lower joints. A good starting point is bracquage/pivot slips. Keep your upper body facing downhill; turn by flattening the skis and turning the legs. This exercise will also help your stance since you need some mobility to make this happen. 
  • Work on releasing the ski. Allow the ski to flatten before the turn. Bracquage will help since your skis will be in a perpetual state of release! Work on linking together hockey stops. Do a hockey stop, flatten the skis, turn, and do another hockey stop. You should stay within a track the width of your skis. It looks like bracquage, but with a hockey stop between each slip. 

 

Another way to keep yourself from unintentionally throwing your mass: as you start to transition between turns, wait one second before starting to turn the joints and tip the skis. (You won't be able to throw anything if you pause!)

 

Good luck! 

post #8 of 24
Thread Starter 
I think I figured out why I was throwing my weight around, I was trying to create edge angle I didn't have speed for, so I need to so that to get skis on edge more than legs would allow.I was doing it subconsciously, but now that I know I'll watch not to do that.

At the local mole hill right now, but can't try it since it's full of wet crud.

And yes impatience os also a factor.
Edited by jzmtl - 12/9/13 at 4:47pm
post #9 of 24

Look at about 11 or 12 seconds.  See how far your feet are in front of your hips?  Not good.  You want your feet under your hips, even behind your hips at the initiation of a turn.  And, your inside foot is way too far forward.  Look at a pic of one of the winning World Cup skiers, and you'll see that their inside boot is against their outside knee.  If you pull your inside foot back strongly all the way through every turn your skiing will immediately be better.  Try it.  It is like turning on power steering.  The strong pull of that hamstring muscle will impel your body forward over the sweet spot of your skis.  The sweet spot is the place that when the weight is over it, the skis ski their best as the designer intended.  This sweet spot is somewhere between the binding and the logo on the ski.  If the skis are about even, and your weight is over the sweet spot of both skis, both skis will respond their best.

 

Too much arm waving.  Ski with your feet.  You don't need to move your arms much at all.

post #10 of 24

I think a combination of Rusty's post #6 and SoftSnow's #9 are helpful.   If you don't do what SoftSnow is saying, then it is tough to do what Rusty is saying. 

post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoftSnowGuy View Post
 

Look at about 11 or 12 seconds.  See how far your feet are in front of your hips?  Not good.  You want your feet under your hips, even behind your hips at the initiation of a turn.  And, your inside foot is way too far forward.  Look at a pic of one of the winning World Cup skiers, and you'll see that their inside boot is against their outside knee.  If you pull your inside foot back strongly all the way through every turn your skiing will immediately be better.  Try it.  It is like turning on power steering.  The strong pull of that hamstring muscle will impel your body forward over the sweet spot of your skis.  The sweet spot is the place that when the weight is over it, the skis ski their best as the designer intended.  This sweet spot is somewhere between the binding and the logo on the ski.  If the skis are about even, and your weight is over the sweet spot of both skis, both skis will respond their best.

 

Too much arm waving.  Ski with your feet.  You don't need to move your arms much at all.

 

Yes.  The blue.

Just to add confusion, I've been playing with pulling the new outside foot back at the top of the turn too (a Rob Butler ski tip) ... that does some nice stuff too.

post #12 of 24
Thread Starter 
It's one of the things I need to ingrain into muscle memory. Later on in the day I usually do them and keep my hands more steady, but I need a conscious effort to do them, and if things get hectic one could fly out the window.

Need to figure out a way to get good video after a few warm up runs. redface.gif
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

Rewatching the video, it looks like I have a bit of A frame and hand position isn't as stable as I'd like. I can eliminate the A frame if I pay attention to it, but need to ingrain that into muscle memory.
Teaching a first timer friend, and act like a bumpstop (good thing she's light!), never done so much backward sliding in my life.

I usually carry a bit of speed onto this slope, this time I had to stop on top to let her know that I'm coming, so without a bit of speed I find it hard to have pop at end of turn/accelerate into new one.
 

 

IMO your biggest fix would be to add some pressure to your skis above the fall line. The reason you are not doing it in the video is that it takes time for your extended body to vault over your legs and back down again into the new turn. Before you are able to add pressure you are already past the fall line. You should either delay your turn entry and ski a bit longer across the slope in a GS type turn at transition so that your upper body has more time tipping into the new turn. Or flex through the transition in a SL type of turn keeping your CoM low and your skis crossing back and forth underneath you. 

 

For the A-framing problem just keep on paying attention to it.

post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post

It's one of the things I need to ingrain into muscle memory. Later on in the day I usually do them and keep my hands more steady, but I need a conscious effort to do them, and if things get hectic one could fly out the window.

Need to figure out a way to get good video after a few warm up runs. redface.gif

 

The funny thing with video is that you actually don't look too different after warming up. Or even a few years later. It might feel better but it will only look better after you actually change something in your skiing.

post #15 of 24
Thread Starter 
New video! I took suggestions in the thread and they did help. Managed to get another pivot turn down a short slope that's a bit over 20°, because there' no runoff I needed to keep speed checked all the time.

post #16 of 24
Lift your inside ski and carve on your outside ski inside edge. This will help your counter issue. Slow down your movements & work on progressive ski/snow interactions.
post #17 of 24

Find a centred position to work from. You ski from the tail of the ski, and should try to slow things down and work out how to find centre, and then move from there, without a good foundation, you can't pivot, edge or steer the ski. 

post #18 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rollo87 View Post

Find a centred position to work from. You ski from the tail of the ski, and should try to slow things down and work out how to find centre, and then move from there, without a good foundation, you can't pivot, edge or steer the ski. 

Details? I'm self taught (well internet taught) so not very well versed on big words and concepts. So I want to hear the "why" and "how" portion instead of only the "you are this, be that" part.
Edited by jzmtl - 2/2/14 at 10:20pm
post #19 of 24

Jzmtl, here's the big picture of your turns in a few screen shots.  Nice angles, by the way!  Those turns must feel good.

 

At apex, when your skis are pointing straight down the fall line, your torso (hips, shoulders, arms) are pointed to the outside of the turn (counter).

 

You can see this in this image and the one below -- in the top image the torso points to your right as the skis begin to turn back to the left, and vice versa in the second image.  The way your torso points shifts dramatically left-right-left-right throughout your turns. Watch the run for this upper body turning motion; you'll see it.  People are calling this excessive counter.  I'm going to try to explain why it's considered excessive.

 

First, you are expending extra energy.  Turning that heavy torso left-right requires unnecessary energy expenditure.  That might not mean much in this short run, but it will mean something in other runs.  There are ways to turn that don't involve so much upper body drama, that don't threaten to throw your balance left and right with so much force.  I'd suggest that you add to your versatility by figuring out how to make the turns without turning your upper body.  Keep it facing downhill for these short radius turns.  Get your legs and skis to turn under your upper body as it travels calmly down the hill (more on this below).  


Then there's a second thing.  You are creating your edging by throwing your hips left-right.  Your skis can't do anything else but tip when you throw your hips out to the side and down towards the snow.  In order to maintain balance over your skis as you do this, you have to keep turning your torso to the side, thus the counter.  Hold onto that thought....

 

 

Most of your time within each turn is spent with your skis pointing close to straight down the hill.  The tops and bottoms of each turn, when your skis point left and right and carry your across the hill, is very short during this run.  Those parts of each turn are shorter than the straight down part, and this comes from your "throwing" your hips side-to-side.  That hip throwing very effectively gets your skis edged high, but it also keeps them pointing mostly down the fall line and eliminates your ability to control your speed by making rounder turns.

 

For that reason you are traveling pretty fast.  If you turn your skis without throwing your hips down, you'll be able to lengthen the tops and bottoms of your turns.  Some are suggesting you slow down.  That may be their purpose, to get you to add to your versatility by incorporating a more lengthy top and bottom to your turns.  Such turns are something you need to be able to do, not only so that you can go slower when the conditions call for it, but because having a top to your turns enables you to do all kinds of things during that extra part of the turn.  Are you already doing round turns but this video doesn't show that?  More on this below.

 

Another thing to think about -- in this image above, your inside leg is bent more than your outside leg.  That keeps your inside knee up under your inside shoulder, and your inside foot/ski closer to under your torso.  This is one of the few instances I see in your video of the inside leg being significantly more bent than the outside leg.  Perhaps you do this more on one side than another.

 

Now look at this one.

Here the inside leg is not bent much more than the outside leg.  The way you know this from a camera view looking at you from the front is indirect; you have to look at the knee.  That inside knee is off to the side, not up under the inside shoulder nor anywhere near it.  

 

Bending that inside leg feels like sucking that knee up towards your chest. Try that instead of dropping the hip; feel the placement of your inside knee under your torso; try to keep it under you instead of out to the side.  When you suck that knee up high, you will get the same angles you currently get, without you having to drop the hip so much.  This will in turn give you the same edge angles while allowing you to enter and exit your turns more leisurely.  Your turns will be rounder, and will have a chance of having a top to them.  You won't have to turn your torso left-right either, so the "excessive" counter will go away.

 

Set as your goal figuring out how to get a top to your turns that lasts as long as the bottoms of your turns, with an inside knee that is bent way more than the outside knee, and a torso that does not turn itself left-right.  The big deal with this is to seek as much travel to the right (top of turn) as to the left - on a "left turn."  Once you are doing this, you will be golden, because you can set your edges in the top of the turn when you are light, and have more grip on steeps all the way through the turn.  Yoiu can work on getting "upside down on the hill" at the top of your turns, and all sorts of good things come from doing this.  Adding a top to your turns is a goal worth seeking.  


Edited by LiquidFeet - 2/3/14 at 11:22am
post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
For rounder turns (I take it you mean finish the turn with skis more across the hill), I can do it, but this time I didn't think I was going too fast so I didn't. Should I do it regardless but scrape less (i.e. less down ward pressure)?

The hip dumping was mentioned before and I am trying to correct it by doing what you said, bending the inside leg instead, but I have a bit of psychological barrier that even though I know it won't happen, I'm a bit afraid on completely retract the inside leg for fear that I'd topple inside, something I'd have to work on.

For excessive counter, I felt I was facing down hill, but apparently wasn't. At the moment I am trying to correct it in longer turns, but at times when I do 180 up the hill it still causes problem and I have to bail a bit halfway through. So from what you said, the excessive counter is related to the previous problems, should I focus on correcting excessive counter, or mostly on retracting inside leg first?
post #21 of 24

Jzmtl, try both pulling that knee up and keeping the upper body more stable.  What works for your body is not predictable; only you can figure that out.

As far as falling over while retracting that knee, why not try to fall over?  Do it on soft snow; then you'll know how far you can go.  Just aim to hip the snow and see how much retraction it takes.  The uncertainty will disappear for sure.  

 

Why not do this at slow speeds on soft snow, while your friend is trying to work on her balance.  Her goal will be to not fall over, and yours will be to successfully fall over. Fun!

post #22 of 24
Thread Starter 
Just arrived at local molehill, going to try to work on them.
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jzmtl View Post


Details? I'm self taught (well internet taught) so not very well versed on big words and concepts. So I want to hear the "why" and "how" portion instead of only the "you are this, be that" part.


Why: No idea...habbit i would guess. 

How:

You're back. Your bend comes a lot from the knee, so your hips are behind your feet. This causes you to ski on the tail of the ski. When you pivot (turn) the leg it comes from the back of the ski, causing the hip to rotate instead of the leg inside the hip socket. This isn't as proficient as using the center of the foot. I would bend more in your ankle and get you to slow down and find center.

Same with your edging, you edge the ski by rotating the hip and dumping it inside because you are back and can't create separation through leg turning, (separation from turning the leg, creates a position of strength and allows you to angulate correctly with balance against your outside ski)  it creates a high edge angle, which is why you'll feel big amounts of grip and the skis bite, you create a counted position, which isn't exactly wrong, but is slightly un natural, and less powerful than a separated position achieved through turning the leg in the hip socket. 

For my 2/c all I would do, would be to get centered, so you can turn your leg properly, so you can achieve separation, so you can angulate or edge correctly. However without a solid stance you won't achieve this. So, slow it down, bend the ankle joint and hip, keep the shoulders over your feet and then work on getting the leg to turn independently of the hip. 

post #24 of 24
Thread Starter 
Okay, less bend at knee, more at ankle, I'll keep that in mind.

Tried to practice today but that particular slope was closed even though we got a lot of moist snow just yesterday, maybe they figured it's too icy with the overnight freeze.
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