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Carving - why cant I tip that inside ski as much as I should - Page 7

post #181 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


1. Plants grow up from the ground, roots grow down into the ground from their seed.

2. I have no idea what you're talking about regarding disappearing posts. I have no moderator status.

When I raise the pinky toe edge of my foot, I sense a lessening of pressure on the bottom of that side of the foot and an increase of pressure on the outside CUFF of the boot. I'll see today whether I also feel the outside top of my boot. last.

I'm skiing sensations in my foot, not thinking about muscular activities.


That's all I was getting at - Feeling and sensations which is highly overlooked by many on this board.  I'm glad you understand the importance of sensations in the foot.   Try and notice the correlation between how well you ski with and without a sense of tension  and feeling in the little round meaty area that I mentioned, or near it anyway.  Maybe this little spot could be thought of the seed to functional tension as it allows me functionality above that spot and the outcome goes down into the ground like a root from there.  I am not a horticulturalist nor an anatomy professor, but I'm pretty aware of what I feel in my feet while skiing. 

 

Has anyone tried lifting one foot an inch off the ground and then tapping your foot heel to toe?  Try it and let me know what part of your foot or ankle feels tired after a minute of doing so.  I have a feeling that nobody is going to cue on a point on the inside of their ankle. 

post #182 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


Clap your hands together. Do you feel it in your arms, or in your palms? I'm skiing sensations, not muscle movement thoughts.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
 


I felt in in my hands, arms, shoulders, the first time.  I tried it again, paying more attention and also felt it in my ribs.  Then I clapped my hands over my head and could feel it in my back too.

 

Nice give and take.  I think it shines some light onto this actually.

 

Intention/Attention. We can intend to turn from our feet, as stated over and over, the ankle and foot are the first line of feedback when our feet are on the ground, but we can also shift attention to how that movement is part of larger synergy in ourselves.  You can also isolate just one part, but that isn't very dynamic and not functional, it is beneficial for sensory training. Add to that the fact that we can move our skeleton in an unbelievable array of sequences (not just a kinetic chain sequence), and our language to describe our movement does it little service and voila, circles.

 

Kneale, I like your metaphor. Are your hands extended/open with excessive effort, or clenched/flexed in a fist when you clap?  Some where in between and depending on how you want it to sound you can alter the shape of your hand, it's finesse is wonderful, but the ability to move it was dependent on the rest of the arm, the elbow position, the shoulder mobility, the trunk, etc and the muscle function around those bones. The function is the same,  if you want clap and can clap, success. But you can use attention to how to use yourself to create a variety of claps. No one is wrong and I can appreciate not everyone likes minutiae, but they exist none the less.

 

@HDN - which part of the autonomic system? 

 

and the ankle is triplanar, it is not a hinge joint(single plane), the talus is a dome shaped bone, it does rotate FWIW

post #183 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


Clap your hands together. Do you feel it in your arms, or in your palms? I'm skiing sensations, not muscle movement thoughts.

 

Sensations of hand clapping...

 

post #184 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kneale Brownson View Post


And that's a "phase" one generally passes through, sometimes very quickly.

I contend that the ability to control one's neutral phase (duration) is one of the hallmark skills of truly expert skiers

post #185 of 209
Thread Starter 

Back to the issue at hand. Inside leg tipping. I have made a quick photomontage of two great skiers featured recently here in different threads. I put in some lines to mark the direction of tibia and femur. Both skiers are driving their outside knee into the turn. Lorenz to the left slightly more than Bode on the right not a huge difference. The big difference however, is that Bode managed to point his inside knee way further inside the turn. Bodes upright upper body and leveled shoulders might also add a bit to the visual but for him to go that far inside with his knee while his foot still points straight forwards caused his foot and his tibia to twist at the ankle. 

 

post #186 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

and the ankle is triplanar, it is not a hinge joint(single plane), the talus is a dome shaped bone, it does rotate FWIW

 

Don't be so modest. You nail the discussion at hand here in your above statement Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up 

post #187 of 209

From Wiki:

 

In humans, no muscles attach to the talus, unlike most bones, and its position is therefore dependent on the position on the neighboring bones. 

 

Interesting. 

post #188 of 209

Not trying to change anyones mind. I think people who are aware of their feet would enjoy using that same sensory skill relative to the hip and vice versa, each person will find what resonates and creates the most pleasurable movement.  Just being flexible enough to play with all the assortments of intention and awareness is ultimately my POV. 

post #189 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post

From Wiki:

In humans, no muscles attach to the talus, unlike most bones, and its position is therefore dependent on the position on the neighboring bones. and ligaments...

Interesting. 
post #190 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by chad View Post
 

@HDN - which part of the autonomic system? 

 

 

There is no part of the autonomic nervous system (sympathetic or parasympathetic) that plays any role in learning and engraining the motor activities of skiing. That was the point of my remark to JASP. The development of the motor engrams that underlie complex learned motor activity is entirely different from the innate autonomic pathways that we are born with ( and which regulate heart rate, digestive processes, respiratory rate, vascular resistance, salivation, perspiration, micturition, pupillary dilatation and sexual arousal). Unless, perhaps, a beginner becomes so terrified that he hyperventilates and shits his long johns.:)

 

Discussions of skiing don't benefit from bogus theories.

post #191 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by HardDaysNight View Post
 

 

There is no part of the autonomic nervous system (sympathetic or parasympathetic) that plays any role in learning and engraining the motor activities of skiing. That was the point of my remark to JASP. The development of the motor engrams that underlie complex learned motor activity is entirely different from the innate autonomic pathways that we are born with ( and which regulate heart rate, digestive processes, respiratory rate, vascular resistance, salivation, perspiration, micturition, pupillary dilatation and sexual arousal). Unless, perhaps, a beginner becomes so terrified that he hyperventilates and shits his long johns.:)

 

Discussions of skiing don't benefit from bogus theories.

 

When was the last time you skied with a hangover :)

 

All of those functions require movement, which require tone regulation, skiing also requires it, no connection? Compartmentalizing is fine for the test, but don't all these systems work together all the time.  It is not a discussion for this topic. I know what you mean.

post #192 of 209
Obviously HDN didn't read post 152. Automaticity resembling autonomic responses in the context of neither needing or benefitting from conscious thought is well established in coaching. Call it bogus if you please I really could care less. I stand by what I wrote about mental triggers and allowing the body to operate without too much conscious thought. It's why race coaches advise their charges to avoid the detailed narratives and instead use a single word as a trigger. Even George Lucas echo's the idea with the famous "use the force, Luke" scene in his Sci FI classic Stat Wars. Paralysis through analysis is another well known version of this idea.
post #193 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Paralysis through analysis is another well known version of this idea.

...and oft demonstrated around here wink.gif

Hell, I think the solution for the OP is just a good dose of "Mindfulness".

Yup, get out of your own way. Less "doing" and more "being" to tip that inside ski.

You know: "Be...Be the ball Danny"
post #194 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Obviously HDN didn't read post 152. Automaticity resembling autonomic responses in the context of neither needing or benefitting from conscious thought is well established in coaching. Call it bogus if you please I really could care less. I stand by what I wrote about mental triggers and allowing the body to operate without too much conscious thought. It's why race coaches advise their charges to avoid the detailed narratives and instead use a single word as a trigger. Even George Lucas echo's the idea with the famous "use the force, Luke" scene in his Sci FI classic Stat Wars. Paralysis through analysis is another well known version of this idea.


 I guess wild animals operate their bodies without too much conscious thought.

post #195 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

Obviously HDN didn't read post 152. Automaticity resembling autonomic responses in the context of neither needing or benefitting from conscious thought is well established in coaching. Call it bogus if you please I really could care less. I stand by what I wrote about mental triggers and allowing the body to operate without too much conscious thought. It's why race coaches advise their charges to avoid the detailed narratives and instead use a single word as a trigger. Even George Lucas echo's the idea with the famous "use the force, Luke" scene in his Sci FI classic Stat Wars. Paralysis through analysis is another well known version of this idea.

I don't think he would call that bogus, he was just suggesting the autonomic system isn't part of the neural map in our movement development. Technically, thats is impossible, but the motor relays are higher in the brain structure, so... again, no one is wrong, just laying down different lines.  Breathing may certainly be something we never have to think about, thank goodness.  But, attending to how we breath is/can be important for movement, just as recognizing when we are tense, where we are tense, etc. The list goes on and on. Getting back to the thread though, maybe more people should just play with variations in movement, while the limbic structures are not autonomic, they do not rely on consciousness, as you know JASP and many preferred engrams can be retuned and expanded upon because when they were formed they don't often change, the whole neurons that fire together wire together deal.  major drift, apologies. we can turn with our ankles, we can turn with our hips, know when you need and prefer them both.

post #196 of 209
As a young man I was a singer. So I am well aware of breath control. With training I learned to rehearse until I got it right. But how I actually expand, or contract my diaphragm, or expand and contract my chest is not my focus. If I am doing that opening night, I am not prepare to perform and wouldn't want to walk out on the stage. Groove the moves in rehearsal. Then, and only then, would I expect to perform at my best.
Skiing is exactly the same. That epiphany that came about for some by rolling the ankle, got their conscious mind out of the way of the rest of their body. So it did the lion's share of the work on autopilot. And that is ultimately the goal, Rehearse until you get it right, then shut up and ski.
post #197 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


Do you have a better idea on how to get it out of the way and get the other one carving faster? wink.gif

 

 


See what I said in post #11...

post #198 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

As a young man I was a singer. So I am well aware of breath control. With training I learned to rehearse until I got it right. But how I actually expand, or contract my diaphragm, or expand and contract my chest is not my focus. If I am doing that opening night, I am not prepare to perform and wouldn't want to walk out on the stage. Groove the moves in rehearsal. Then, and only then, would I expect to perform at my best.
Skiing is exactly the same. That epiphany that came about for some by rolling the ankle, got their conscious mind out of the way of the rest of their body. So it did the lion's share of the work on autopilot. And that is ultimately the goal, Rehearse until you get it right, then shut up and ski.

 

One problem with skiing is that its such a thrilling sport that we rather just cream our dreams than work on movement specific and boring drills. Some do, but most of us don't. I remember in the 70s it was default to learn how to ski in a ski school. Today its more common to just ski with your friends, jump or hike the back country. Singing is a good example. It takes discipline to stick with proper education. Same with anything, skiing included. Another problem we have is that our sport gives us very little time to do stuff on the hill. And the circumstances vary a lot. Anything from rain to -25c.

 

I don't remember how many repetitions are needed before a specific movement becomes ingrained beyond conscious human taught but golfers should know.

post #199 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post

As a young man I was a singer. So I am well aware of breath control. With training I learned to rehearse until I got it right. But how I actually expand, or contract my diaphragm, or expand and contract my chest is not my focus. If I am doing that opening night, I am not prepare to perform and wouldn't want to walk out on the stage. Groove the moves in rehearsal. Then, and only then, would I expect to perform at my best.
Skiing is exactly the same. That epiphany that came about for some by rolling the ankle, got their conscious mind out of the way of the rest of their body. So it did the lion's share of the work on autopilot. And that is ultimately the goal, Rehearse until you get it right, then shut up and ski.

performance and training for performance are to different things.  it not what you do its how you do it, we don't want to attend to movement in performance, we want to attend to sensation.  But we need to spend time attending to movement to see how it effects sensation.  You might like this woman.

 

listen from 1:00 to 5:00, could easily substitute skiing for voice training. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4X5gVENkn4

post #200 of 209

Honestly, my only reason for joining Epic years ago was to work on presenting ideas prior to doing so out in the real world. Not being a professional writer I strived to improve my writing so I could share all the coaching and mentoring I have been lucky enough to have received from so many luminaries of this sport. Paying it forward with the expectation that those who listened would do the same. I feel I have improved my writing and along the way gained insight into how a word here and there make all the difference. Similar being one of those. I included it in the idea that automaticity and autonomic functions do not require conscious thinking. What transpired was some folks got it but others chose to ignore the word similar and go off on a tangent about what the autonomic bodily functions are. We don't tell the kidneys and liver to filter things, the heart to beat, or the respiratory system to do it's job. Nor has anyone suggested learned responses like locomotion are down at that level. What was expressed is the idea that they become and again I am using the word similar, SIMILAR in that conscious focus and thought tends to degrade our ability to perform those moves as we ski.

Barnes wrote an idea about skiing being skiing, and drilling being drilling. Drilling isn't skiing. Jim Taylor and others wrote about practice makes perfect, but only if you approach that practice with the same intensity and focus as you would during a performance. Bridging the gap between practice and performance thus becomes easier. But what remains is the question of where that line actually exists. Can practice (drilling) and performance (skiing) occur simultaneously? Is that where the now archaic phrase "blend and apply" and the segment of a ski lesson that phase represents, still fit into the development of a good lesson plan? I've witnessed temporary change in students, and lasting change. I've seen it be the difference between passing a beyond level three try out. "Can you do the move?" is just part of a much bigger picture. "Can you do the move on demand without turning it into an always and everywhere thing?" is again only part of that bigger picture. Exactly when we shift our focus away from the mechanics and to the tactical, and when do we shift our focus away from the tactical to simply performing and living the moment. Not living in the moment mind you, living the moment. Fully engaged, feeling, breathing and drinking and being who we are and using all of our learned skills to rise above the dogma of mechanics and such.

 

Ironically, most here write about subjective feelings of accomplishment when they "get" those silly moves (they worry so much about doing them correctly) but I rarely read anything about how their soul sang out in harmony with the snow, the Earth and the Heavens as they lived that moment. Maybe I'm wrong here but IMO that is what all the rehearsing and practicing leads us towards. For me performing like a trained seal so I can gain the approval of others, or pass another test / try out is to lose my connection to those who came before and shared with me the idea that spiritually uplifting feeling they too experienced as they experienced those transcendental moments where their soles and their souls were in harmony with everything around them.

 

I hope all of you will someday set aside the need for approval sort of thinking and celebrate the idea that everything you have ever experienced has led to the turn you are making and how precious it is to have the opportunity to make that turn, and if you're lucky the next one, and the one after that. I realize this is thread drift but so be it. I'm satisfied my goals here at Epic and find that while my writing still sucks, I need to move on and let others complete their journey of discovery. Good luck everyone and God Bless, Don

post #201 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

What was expressed is the idea that they become and again I am using the word similar, SIMILAR in that conscious focus and thought tends to degrade our ability to perform those moves as we ski.

.

.

Barnes wrote an idea about skiing being skiing, and drilling being drilling. Drilling isn't skiing.

.

.

.....and when do we shift our focus away from the tactical to simply performing and living the moment. Not living in the moment mind you, living the moment. Fully engaged, feeling, breathing and drinking and being who we are and using all of our learned skills to rise above the dogma of mechanics and such.

 

...but I rarely read anything about how their soul sang out in harmony with the snow, the Earth and the Heavens as they lived that moment. Maybe I'm wrong here but IMO that is what all the rehearsing and practicing leads us towards.

 

.... the idea that spiritually uplifting feeling they too experienced as they experienced those transcendental moments where their soles and their souls were in harmony with everything around them.

 

I hope all of you will someday set aside the need for approval sort of thinking and celebrate the idea that everything you have ever experienced has led to the turn you are making and how precious it is to have the opportunity to make that turn, and if you're lucky the next one, and the one after that....

 

Thumbs Up   That is definitely the whole point!

post #202 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by borntoski683 View Post
 

 

Thumbs Up   That is definitely the whole point!


Amen to that...or as we used to say in Summit County, "skiing saves..."

 

:snowfall

post #203 of 209

I have not read all comments but as a little thought to tdk6, sometimes you should not overthink what you se. Also why things happened a lot of times are not the obvious thing we always se.

no1She is a racer, she do not care how it looks as long as its strong and fast. And its no purpose in its self to have exactly the same angles on both feet, knees it looks good ok I think you also said the same things whit other words. In I agre when it comes to frame 2, wide stance in transition.

No2 what she like do whit her next turn, is importen to know to figure out why she is diverge whit her inner ski. maybe she has do so in this photo series to end up were she wants as you said. (in this case I don't think so, she is trying to do good techniquel turns)

No3 What I believe happened in the last photo is that she lean to far in whit here center of mass, which gives her the problem, less force on outsideski so it stops turning. The small, but still signs is what we all can se; standing on her inside ski to much/early, an over rotate her hip/ (uperbody).  So the reason in this photo is more lack of Wight/pressure on outsideski, which puts her out of balance. Witch at the end gives the strange knee-ankle position.

If im right? nobody knows. But al signs tells us so. If she hade rotate more in her hipsocket or just take it more easy in to the turn her knees and feet should look better in the last photo.

post #204 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdk6 View Post
 

Back to the issue at hand. Inside leg tipping. I have made a quick photomontage of two great skiers featured recently here in different threads. I put in some lines to mark the direction of tibia and femur. Both skiers are driving their outside knee into the turn. Lorenz to the left slightly more than Bode on the right not a huge difference. The big difference however, is that Bode managed to point his inside knee way further inside the turn. Bodes upright upper body and leveled shoulders might also add a bit to the visual but for him to go that far inside with his knee while his foot still points straight forwards caused his foot and his tibia to twist at the ankle. 

 

Its a interesting discussion but could the different in this photos just lay in how the skiers creates there angulation, bode is more separate and can do this move you all talk about, if the skier to the left do bodes move, he will end up out of balance? ankle rotation? the feeling of it.... or is it more how much for or aft we hold our inside foot? If its true, then the attack angel of the boot would mather. Or is it still only how much we rotate in our hip at the same time as we bend our knees?

post #205 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post



See what I said in post #11...
Yep. I will call that an introduction to the proper biomechanics of getting the knee out of the way, but you will conti ue the movement and get it really out of the way. Or do you see this as two radically different movements?
post #206 of 209
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by uturn View Post
 

I have not read all comments but as a little thought to tdk6, sometimes you should not overthink what you se. Also why things happened a lot of times are not the obvious thing we always se.

no1She is a racer, she do not care how it looks as long as its strong and fast. And its no purpose in its self to have exactly the same angles on both feet, knees it looks good ok I think you also said the same things whit other words. In I agre when it comes to frame 2, wide stance in transition.

No2 what she like do whit her next turn, is importen to know to figure out why she is diverge whit her inner ski. maybe she has do so in this photo series to end up were she wants as you said. (in this case I don't think so, she is trying to do good techniquel turns)

No3 What I believe happened in the last photo is that she lean to far in whit here center of mass, which gives her the problem, less force on outsideski so it stops turning. The small, but still signs is what we all can se; standing on her inside ski to much/early, an over rotate her hip/ (uperbody).  So the reason in this photo is more lack of Wight/pressure on outsideski, which puts her out of balance. Witch at the end gives the strange knee-ankle position.

If im right? nobody knows. But al signs tells us so. If she hade rotate more in her hipsocket or just take it more easy in to the turn her knees and feet should look better in the last photo.

 

Thanks for joining the discussion even if a bit late. Good so because we are drifting off topic all the time. So lets try to address the issue at hand: inside leg tipping. Some of your ides have been discussed already but no harm in bringing them up again.

 

My intention with this thread has been to discuss why some of us cannot tip that inside ski as much as we would like to or being asked to. Not whether the woman in the OP skied correctly or not. I'm also not taking any standpoint whether tipping the inside leg as much as the outside is good or bad, simply why can some do it and some not. I have found one area of hardly any attention at all, rotation at the ankle. And the difference in ankle mobility between skiers. Up until now I have not understood what ankle tipping is. Now I think I have a clue. IMO many falsely think that you can actually tip your inside ski by tipping your ankle inside the boot, however not just like that. There are three conditions that needs to be met: you need to be able to rotate your tibia (lower leg) in reference to your foot at the ankle joint, you need to be able to invert your ankle and you need to tip your boot.

post #207 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by razie View Post


Yep. I will call that an introduction to the proper biomechanics of getting the knee out of the way, but you will conti ue the movement and get it really out of the way. Or do you see this as two radically different movements?


I'd say those drills will get the outside ski doing the right thing, and you won't have to deal with the inside leg...it'll take care of itself...

post #208 of 209
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkiRacer55 View Post


I'd say those drills will get the outside ski doing the right thing, and you won't have to deal with the inside leg...it'll take care of itself...
Not so sure - if you look, most skiers get a pronounced A frame and sure, stance width and alignment has something to do with it, but also does not consciously paying attention to the inside foot. Anyways, i and I would say most high-end racers I see, are quite focused on it and kind of let the outside take care of itself...

You know windshield wipers/rollerblades - the, I guess quint-essential, racer drill - it simply would not work if you don't consciously manage the inside foot... which is kind of the point of it in the first place...?
post #209 of 209

Hard to describe where you're heading vs. where I'm heading...send me a pm, if you wish, and we'll talk more...

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