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Waxing with a heat gun - Page 6

post #151 of 172

did you go skiing yet? 

Do a bunch of runs on some hard groomers, and see what happens after 30,000 vert of snow/ice doing the "grinding"

post #152 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


:newkeyboard:Seems like a trivial problem by comparison, don't it? Based on the posts and my recent waxing adventures, heat guns don't seem any more hazardous to a ski's health than irons, so long as I'm not in charge of one. spit.gif
Sure; the first one is a shot of my new (un-prepped) Rossi 88s for reference. The other two are pics of one of the Kenjas. I took a lot more but these should give you the gist of things. It's a little embarrassing, though, like posting a picture of one's eczema.




 

Go ski them just to see. Stop worrying about it. I once had a snowblade base ptex come unglued from the base after waxing. Fortunately it stayed on in other places. Talk about poor construction though - total garbage.

 

Fyi, your new Rossi's have no structure I can see so get them ground also.

Go to a good shop!!! They are not that much more than another one. They are also very rare actually. Even decent shops do poor base grinds all the time. I use to drive 2 hours one way to get a decent base grind. Go to one that does race skis. There's a couple really good ones in your area. Rennstall? and another guy who used to work there I think started his own. Ask here or go search here. Stuff was posted awhile back.

 

Do not do this over Christmas week! Shops are too busy. They are flooded with work. Do it now.

post #153 of 172

Litterbug, I just noticed you live in SLC, you're in luck because you have one of the best shops around only about 45min. away from you in Park City.  Jeff Butz, (former WC Tech) owns Podium Ski Service in PC and not only has great turn around times but he does excellent work.  Jeff learned a lot from his time with Graham Lonetto and Graham is highly regarded as one of the BEST ski Techs around.

 

Drive em, ship em, I don't care if you have to walk them to PC but get them up there and have Jeff turn them back into new, or depending on how good the original tune was, better than new.  :)

 

Like I already mentioned and Tog said the same thing, do whatever it takes to make sure you get your stuff in the hands of a GOOD shop, otherwise you're taking the risk of putting good money after bad.  I can't begin to tell you how many people I know that have had skis done by a shop that THINKS they KNOW what they're doing then later have the same skis done by a shop that truly DOES know what they are doing and how BIG of a difference there is.  They all have said the same thing, "it's like they are completely different skis"!!!

post #154 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I'm inclined to think those are still wax bits. Can't you pick them off with a fingernail?
No, they're just there, and there's no "layer" of anything; that's one of the reasons I'm sure it's the base. I
Quote:
Originally Posted by raytseng View Post

Do a bunch of runs on some hard groomers, and see what happens after 30,000 vert of snow/ice doing the "grinding"
Haven't skied yet. It's been warm the past few days and will be below freezing the rest of the week, but Alta's grooming crew does a good job, so I'd have to hunt for icy patches.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

[Fyi, your new Rossi's have no structure I can see so get them ground also.]
The bindings aren't even mounted yet; I'll have them check the base for flatness and put a structure on once I know whether they need to go a few centimeters forward, which is what I've done with other skis. I just can't remember whether I did that when I demoed them, and I want to reproduce those conditions.
Quote:
Go to a good shop!!! They are not that much more than another one. Go to one that does race skis. There's a couple really good ones in your area. Rennstall? and another guy who used to work there I think started his own.

Do not do this over Christmas week! Shops are too busy. They are flooded with work. Do it now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoJo23 View Post

Litterbug, I just noticed you live in SLC, you're in luck because you have one of the best shops around only about 45min. away from you in Park City.  Jeff Butz, (former WC Tech) owns Podium Ski Service in PC and not only has great turn around times but he does excellent work.  Jeff learned a lot from his time with Graham Lonetto and Graham is highly regarded as one of the BEST ski Techs around.

Drive em, ship em, I don't care if you have to walk them to PC but get them up there and have Jeff turn them back into new, or depending on how good the original tune was, better than new.  smile.gif

Like I already mentioned and Tog said the same thing, do whatever it takes to make sure you get your stuff in the hands of a GOOD shop, otherwise you're taking the risk of putting good money after bad.  I can't begin to tell you how many people I know that have had skis done by a shop that THINKS they KNOW what they're doing then later have the same skis done by a shop that truly DOES know what they are doing and how BIG of a difference there is.  They all have said the same thing, "it's like they are completely different skis"!!!
I know Powder House does a good edge tune, but I've never had a base grind there so far as I can remember. Sport Loft did a base grind on my Kenjas last season, but I couldn't tell you what the structure felt like because they were squirrely all year from the variable tune they (mistakenly) did (I'm sure some poor chick was pretty pissed off with my boring 1/2 tune). But the smog in town is oppressive, so I'm out the door now to drop my skis off at Podium and breathe some fresh air in Park City.

I just want to ski on my skis. Actually, I'd just like to ski, and this past few weeks has been weird, but the weekend's coming, if nothing else, and I want the Kenjas here and ready to go when I need them. I know I could file or stone or sand or scrape it myself but at this point I'd just as soon get a waxing and sharpening routine going before anything else. Sometimes it's worth paying someone else to set things up right, especially if that someone else really knows what they're doing.
post #155 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by litterbug View Post


No, they're just there, and there's no "layer" of anything; that's one of the reasons I'm sure it's the base. I
Haven't skied yet. It's been warm the past few days and will be below freezing the rest of the week, but Alta's grooming crew does a good job, so I'd have to hunt for icy patches.
The bindings aren't even mounted yet; I'll have them check the base for flatness and put a structure on once I know whether they need to go a few centimeters forward, which is what I've done with other skis. I just can't remember whether I did that when I demoed them, and I want to reproduce those conditions.

I know Powder House does a good edge tune, but I've never had a base grind there so far as I can remember. Sport Loft did a base grind on my Kenjas last season, but I couldn't tell you what the structure felt like because they were squirrely all year from the variable tune they (mistakenly) did (I'm sure some poor chick was pretty pissed off with my boring 1/2 tune). But the smog in town is oppressive, so I'm out the door now to drop my skis off and get some fresh air in Park City.

I want to ski on my skis. The Geishas are almost ready, but I want the Kenjas here and ready to go when I need them. I like the idea of fully servicing my own skis, but at this point it'd be good to get a waxing and sharpening routine before getting fancy. I know there are things I could do, but sometimes it's worth paying someone else to set things up right, especially if that someone else really knows what they're doing.

 

They were not squirrely because of an incorrect or odd base and side edge bevel! They were squirrely because they weren't flat. Probably convex. I've had this issue. The ski was basically unskiable. First time I got on it I almost crashed. I was skiing with coffee from the top lodge.. do that all the time, but could barely handle it. Was not expecting that from the skis. I had to stop and recenter and be real careful.

 

We are not kidding about base grinds. I've had plenty of "good shops" do poor base grinds. Shops I would not hesitate to have other work done in like mounting, boots, etc.  It's your skis, but by the posts you're pretty particular about them. I would not under any circumstances walk into the shops you just mentioned unless they're well known by people who care - racers. Seriously, the general public has no clue about this so there's no demand. Real wide skis are in soft snow which matters not much in terms of flatness.

 

That guy Graham Lonetto Mojo was talking about above, he runs Edgewise in Stowe. That's who I used to drive 2 hrs  for. Even back when he had a fairly primitive machine compared to what he has now. At least he knew how to use it and payed attention.

 

Honestly, if it's difficult, just ship them to Starthaus with the bindings and get them to do the whole thing - base grind, mount etc.

post #156 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post

They were not squirrely because of an incorrect or odd base and side edge bevel! They were squirrely because they weren't flat. Probably convex. I've had this issue. The ski was basically unskiable. First time I got on it I almost crashed. I was skiing with coffee from the top lodge.. do that all the time, but could barely handle it. Was not expecting that from the skis. I had to stop and recenter and be real careful.
Well, that's what you get for skiing with coffee. duck.gif Respectfully, the Kenjas have flat bases. The first 6-8 inches of the shovels are a little concave, enough to require careful scraping, but the other four and a half feet of ski in between show virtually nothing under a true bar except the edge bevel. The difference between them and the Geishas, whose last grind was probably a few years ago, is revealing.

The Sport Loft, though, needs no defense. They deliberately performed that grind and that tune, they documented the three side and (I think) two base bevels with a tag on each ski, and I saw the tags but didn't so much as glance at them until I took them off at Targhee. I was a little more curious after a hysterical ride on them on extremely cold and very packed powder. eek.gif Kenjas are pretty assertive skis, and with an acute-angled variable tune they were more bossy than ever. So the shop screwed up, but I also wasn't as engaged as I usually am in a place that caters to a specialty crowd. I should have checked my skis in case they forgot I'm not so special. Or very special, depending on how you look at it. Sometime people overestimate me, and I generally watch for it, but I was so thrilled about leaving town that all I wanted was to load up the sticks and drive.
Quote:
That guy Graham Lonetto Mojo was talking about above, he runs Edgewise in Stowe. That's who I used to drive 2 hrs for. Even back when he had a fairly primitive machine compared to what he has now. At least he knew how to use it and payed attention.

Honestly, if it's difficult, just ship them to Starthaus with the bindings and get them to do the whole thing - base grind, mount etc.
I guess it's harder than I thought, because traffic kept me from getting to PC by 6:00. cool.gif But everything's copacetic; there's no need to ship them to what, Tahoe, right? The road will be there tomorrow.
post #157 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

I'm inclined to think those are still wax bits. Can't you pick them off with a fingernail?

 

 

I completely agree - they are wax bits, slightly carbonised but everything else is -perfectly good- hard wax.      I think the original scraping job was substandard, and the brass brushing just made it worse.      IMO a steel scrape, plastic-scraper scrape, and a horsehair brushing could do wonders for those skis and make them perfectly skiable.   IMO the reason they're not absorbing any new wax is because the SG8 is in there and dilligently doing its proper job.

*shrug*  A grind /would/ be a fast way to resolve it and start anew. 

post #158 of 172

Man, you all are going off.  Insane.  Ever think about snowboarding?

 

post #159 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Man, you all are going off.  Insane.  Ever think about snowboarding?

Those special waxless snowboards you mean?

post #160 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacques View Post
 

Man, you all are going off.  Insane.  Ever think about snowboarding?

Those special waxless snowboards you mean?


Hey, a lot of these guys have sintered bases here!  Killin; it for a benefit for a disabled boarder.  Even the extruded crowd is killin' it! ;)

post #161 of 172
Oh christ, I give up trying to edit my post, and it was cranky anyway, so I'll try to delete it.
Edited by litterbug - 12/14/13 at 10:45pm
post #162 of 172
Thread Starter 

Litterbug, those bases look burned. You need a base grind. 

 

I was hoping to talk about waxing with a heat gun, about more test results to be precise. 

 

Four days of skiing on cold, old, hard snow and one and a half days of pow. One pair of Dynastar Chams, advertised as having sintered bases started with the tip of one ski and the tail of the other being waxed with the iron and the rest with the heat gun. One pair of Armada Triumphs had one ski done with the heat gun and the other with the iron. Also advertised as having sintered bases. One pair of Dynastar WC Course (like the Omeglass ones, but the GS version) with sintered race bases and some kind of extra structuring, again, one ski done with the iron, the other with the heat gun. And finally one pair of extruded base Völkls. 

Waxes used: red Holmenkol, blue Toko, and Burton fluoro universal. 

 

 

The result: absolutely NO difference in glide or wax retention between the two methods. None. 

 

 

Other, unrelated observations: 

- after waxing with the heat gun, you can either still scrape, or wait for the glide to come in about halfway down the first run. I think we forgot to remove excess wax from the edges sometimes. It comes off soon enough. One extra reason to hand tune your edges to a chrome finish! 

- The difference between sintered and (cheap) extruded bases is huuuuge. The race base is better still: even when you expect it to be dry, it's not. 

- My heat gun is 1000W. I want a 2000W one. 

post #163 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
 

Litterbug, those bases look burned. You need a base grind. 

 

I was hoping to talk about waxing with a heat gun, about more test results to be precise. 

 

Four days of skiing on cold, old, hard snow and one and a half days of pow. One pair of Dynastar Chams, advertised as having sintered bases started with the tip of one ski and the tail of the other being waxed with the iron and the rest with the heat gun. One pair of Armada Triumphs had one ski done with the heat gun and the other with the iron. Also advertised as having sintered bases. One pair of Dynastar WC Course (like the Omeglass ones, but the GS version) with sintered race bases and some kind of extra structuring, again, one ski done with the iron, the other with the heat gun. And finally one pair of extruded base Völkls. 

Waxes used: red Holmenkol, blue Toko, and Burton fluoro universal. 

 

 

The result: absolutely NO difference in glide or wax retention between the two methods. None. 

 

 

Other, unrelated observations: 

- after waxing with the heat gun, you can either still scrape, or wait for the glide to come in about halfway down the first run. I think we forgot to remove excess wax from the edges sometimes. It comes off soon enough. One extra reason to hand tune your edges to a chrome finish! 

- The difference between sintered and (cheap) extruded bases is huuuuge. The race base is better still: even when you expect it to be dry, it's not. 

- My heat gun is 1000W. I want a 2000W one. 

I have been following this thread, which is going into several directions, with great interest.  I have a heat gun used primarily for the past twenty+ years to melt the glue between the shaft and head of  golf clubs.  I also use a Thermopen religiously for cooking and grilling.  The Termopen is has a tolerance of 0.7 degrees F, so it is pretty accurate (the chicken is always juicy).  This weekend I'll test the accuracy of the temperature used to melt wax between the Holmenkol iron I'm using (looks like any other waxing iron) and the base temperature of a ski being waxed with the heat gun at various distances.  The Thermopen gives an accurate reading within a few seconds, which is probably too short a time to ruin a base assuming I don't put the heat gun next to the base.   If the heat gun gives off a temperature reading from a safe distance that is fairly constant, heat becomes...heat and waxing becomes easier.

post #164 of 172

From Elvo "One pair of Dynastar Chams, advertised as having sintered bases"

 

That's strange, because the email from Dynastar factory rep. said that only their race skis had sintered bases.  THEY told me that! Official email from them.

I wonder who is making the claim of Chams having a sintered base?   Skis.com? etc.

 

Heat is heat and time is time.   As long as one does not overheat it's all good.  The more time, the better.

post #165 of 172
Thread Starter 

http://www.skis.com/Dynastar-Cham-97-Skis-2014/279028P,default,pd.html

 

Construction Type: Sidewall
Core Material: Wood
Base Material: Sintered
 
 
post #166 of 172
http://www.the-house.com/8972dych9713zz-dynastar-skis.html?netid=linkshare&utm_source=linkshare&utm_medium=affiliates&utm_campaign=je6NUbpObpQ-_Zo3OWWsIGkjNjXTkLw.nA


Specs

Type:
All Mountain Powder
Shape:
Conventional
Ability Level: Intermediate-Advanced
Rocker Type:
Hybrid Levitation profile
Construction:
Sandwich sandwich laminate, vertical sidewalls
Core Material:
Wood
Base:
Extruded


Neither link is the source, i.e. Dynastar.

Based on the general resounding silence on most sites, my bet is it's extruded.
post #167 of 172
Isn't that an expensive ski for an extruded base?
post #168 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
 

http://www.skis.com/Dynastar-Cham-97-Skis-2014/279028P,default,pd.html

 

Construction Type: Sidewall
Core Material: Wood
Base Material: Sintered
 
 


Yea, skis.com will pretty much tell you every ski base is sintered.  Don't believe it!   Like I said prior.  Dynastar themselves told me that only their RACE skis have sintered bases now.  Years ago that was not the case.   They are still using sintered bases on most Rossi's.  Reason I mention that is because they come from the same manufacture.

post #169 of 172

I did my tests on three pairs of skis using a cheap  Milwaukee heat gun purchase a long time ago.  Although heat is heat,  heat is not heat after it melts the wax.  Let me explain:

 

Overview

 

I rubbed on wax instead of the typical method of dripping it on.  Why?  Others here tried the method claiming there is little waste and I thought it would be a perfect method for testing a heat gun.  The wax used was the pink universal LF TOKO "training" wax ($12 in a 250gm bar) on standard bases, and the more expensive Hertel FC Racing 739, an universal wax that lasts longer than any wax I've ever used on sintered bases.  My rock skis were older Stockli Spirit Pro II (think: soft SL with sintered bases that also carve), with the wax on one ski ironed and the other melted with the heat gun.  The other two skis belonged to my kids, and the wax was melted only using the heat gun.

 

The temperature of the heat used and wax just after melting was measured with the Thermopen I use for cooking and baking.  I know it is calibrated from sticking the tip into both ice water and boiling water and taking measurments.  The digital Thermopen takes approximately 4 seconds for an accurate read (no home cook or grillmeister should be without one), and turned out to be more accurate than the temperature gauge on my Holmenkol waxing iron.

 

Test

 

After rubbing on the wax, I applied heat.  The iron was not as smooth with rubbed on wax as with having more dripped wax onto a ski in the traditional method, but it worked.  The heat gun gave off the same surface temperature as the bottom of the iron at a distance of approximately 5 inches from the base, but it took too long to melt the wax.  It was much simpler moving the heat gun closer to the base and eyeballing where and when the wax melts.  The wax from the heat gun cooled faster (the shine became dull) that with the waxing iron (confirmed with the Thermopen), likely because there was less or an area of heat over the base surface area at any given time.  The waxing iron took less time to wax a ski than using a heat gun.  Both methods melted the wax without issue.

 

Analysis

 

Both methods of applying heat work, regardless of the two waxes used.  It should be obvious to anyone who has waxed before when any method of applying heat is too high or too low.  When using a heat gun, it becomes obvious when the wax begins to melt. Both methods are safe to use for anyone who has waxed before.  

 

Conclusion

 

I will definitely use the heat gun method while on vacation.  Why?  Less mess.  This means I won't feel guilty about taking a hotel or condo ironing board and turning it upside down as a make-shift work bench.  Rubbing on the wax,  and getting it into the base using a heat gun, means no wax dripping onto the floor or counter top, and almost no scraping.  While on vacation I can simply scrape and brush within a minute or two (max) onto a newspaper and leave no mess.  No mess means no guilt, and I like that.  Rubbing on wax and using a heat gun to melt it in makes for less waste.  Your bars of wax will last many times longer using this method.  Using the traditional method of waxing w/ Fiberlene (to absorb the excess) is actually faster, but produces more mess due to the excess wax dripping, bleeding over the edges, etc. 


Edited by quant2325 - 1/1/14 at 9:36am
post #170 of 172
So, the real test. Any difference in bases after a day of skiing?
post #171 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by sibhusky View Post

So, the real test. Any difference in bases after a day of skiing?


OK, I skied on them today without remembering which ski was waxed with the heat gun and which one was waxed with the iron.  No matter, because they look the same.

post #172 of 172
I used heat gun to work some wax into the grip section of my waxless XC ski the other day. It's pretty slow compare to iron, don't think I'll have the patience to do it on entire skis, but it did work.
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