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Getting the right edge work down...

post #1 of 14
Thread Starter 

Just looking to see if this sounds about right to you guys as far as order of tuning steps….the tools I'm using are below, I know I'm missing pieces, just not sure what else is necessary...

 

1. Hot wax, quick scrape, brush with Brass to clear dirt out.  Repeat if the wax shavings have noticeable dirt in them.

2. Use the sidewall planer to pull back the wall

3. Use base file guide and toko file to set base edge, (do I wet the regular file?) then swap out for a few passes with each diamond stone low grit to high grit, applying spray each time, or can i use a combo of dipping in water so i don't use up all of the solution? 

4. What type of brush should I clean out the diamond stones with, or will soaking them release the metal shavings? 

5. Insert fine white ceramic into the file guide to harden the base edge angle

6. Tape off both sides of the base (how close to the edge, 2mm? this won't change the angle significantly?)

7. set side angle with (panzer or toko file ??) and fixed degree guide

8. run the diamonds a few times, 200-400-800

9. run fine ceramic on file guides to harden

10. gummy stone? or is there another step before gummy?

 

 

 

I know I forgot something….

 

 

Here's what I'm working with to tune the family...

 

- Swix super jaws with adjustable 60 degree angle end supports

- Swix sidewall planer

- 1,2,3,4 degree fixed side angle guides, clamps

- 0.5, 0.75, 1.0 base angle (.5 Beast, .75, 1.0 are swix all metal)

- 200, 400, 800 moonflex

- Artech spray solution

- 6 inch panzar file

- Swix fine ceramic (white) stone

- a few ~9" inch thin toko files with grooves on the sides

- Artech Brass oval brush 

- Holmenkol white (softer) and black (stiffer) nylon

- Gummi stone

 

 

What I don't have….

- Structuring device

- Arkansas Stone

 

Thanks in advance.  any help is great…..I'm worried I'm going screw something up

post #2 of 14
I'm not an expert but thought I'd bump your post anyway. The one thing I'm pretty sure of is that you wax after doing the edge work.

Until people who know what they're doing get on here and post replies, check out some other posts, because a lot of them start on various things like benches or measuring angles but hit on these principles too. I'm sure people will want to know whether these are brand new skis, what kind of skiing and skiers they're used for, what condition the edges and base are in, whether the base and side bevels were already set by you or a shop and whether you're changing them.

If you're not changing the base bevel and the edge is in good condition, I don't know that you'll want to use the file; you would just knock down case-hardened rock damage with a stone or file and then sharpen the edges with diamond stones. I hadn't heard of hardening it with ceramic stones, but maybe that's what people mean when they talk about 'polishing' the edge. The reason to generally leave the base bevel alone is to avoid removing so much material that you change the angle by making it base high (I'm sure I'm saying that wrong, so you should check the other tuning threads).

You also don't need to file the side edges unless you need to, if that makes sense, simply because there's a limited amount of steel to work with. There's not the same concern about affecting the flatness of the ski by overdoing it on the base edge, though. wink.gif So your normal tune is much the same as above-knock down burrs or case-hardened impacts, sharpen and polish.

I'm sure people who actually know what they're doing will post soon, at which point you should completely disregard this post. rolleyes.gif
post #3 of 14
Thread Starter 

Thanks for the input litterbug, those points and questions are relevant.  I understand to wax after but after reading so much, I realized I had waxed over dirt, so it's a lot of brushing and rewaxing to fix it, and then a proper wax after edges. Only a few skis have the structure that they deserve and it makes me think of getting a structuring tool or having all bases ground with the structure that they are usually skied in, but the gear has already cost me double because the wifey gets the same for her vises ;):snowfight   

 

Jobs daunting- 18 skis-  5 adult skiers- 1 beginner, 3 advanced-intermediate, 1 expert).  I think I have a handle on about half the bevels. another 4 I can find out, another 4-5 I won't know.  Do people find out by sharpie'ing the edge and trying each angle until it pulls?  Sounds beans if it's past what you desire, not that I really know what i desire, which sounds like a grind would be necessary.  A 1.0 base for the first four in the fam is probably okay and likely what they've been shop tuned to already. Is there a full-proof way to know without marker sharpie'ing?  I don't have the experience, really in general. What a perfect time for a post, the whole country is traveling or prepping to shred turkey giblets,  the tuning crowd especially I'm sure....Getting technical all over thanksgiving, which i love.  I'm here blasting off about too much.  But thats where I am and I'm sorta lovin' it.  

 

I'm still confused about the Arkansas stone and if the fine ceramic i have is insufficient.  

I was also under the impression that you take case-hardening down with a wet 100-200 diamond?  Is that a bad idea?  

Whether its a diamond or a file, Can that be done free-hand or better on the guide?

 

SkiMD, and others, make me want to get aggressive with the tunes, and our mountain is so friggin' cold but flawlessly groomed with super snowmaking, at least until the IPO fubars everything up, sweet.  The rip is usually first run race course kind of snow many many days.  I don't know...It's hard to know if mom and pop, at 65, and Sis at 34 would like a 1/3.  Or would it throw them off from years on a 1/2?  They ski early morning every weekend all season in Vt.  Just not sure

 

I'm more of a mess with my stuff, I want to possibly do a variable tune on a fis fischer sl.  a GS with a 4 degree, etc....I'm all over the place, but slowly dialing, I think hope.

post #4 of 14
IMO, this is a lot to learn. Just start with hot scraping to clean, and then just do your own waxing, scraping, and brushing the first year. Get comfortable with that until you want to do more, maybe move up to polishing your edges and understanding bevels next year. Save sharpening for year three. I think it's too much to jump into everything all at once. Better to do less and do it well, than take on the whole shebang and make a mess of it.

But yeah, get done making filings and metal dust BEFORE your cleaning and waxing.
post #5 of 14
Thread Starter 

Thanks Sib, but that's not possible.

post #6 of 14
Thread Starter 

After a few more vids, I'm more comfortable.  Did some work on a rock ski and it came out smooth and sharp. Did too much work on the base edge and hurt the base, good lesson learned.  But tying to dial in everything is probably a little prematurely.  I'm going to keep it status quo for them and get aggressive with my stuff.  

post #7 of 14

forget about the base edge after it has been set.  Do NOT try to touch it up every time!  All you will do is further increase the angle - not a good thing.  For the sidewall planer, once you have pulled the sidewall back you should not need to use every time.  For the side edges don't sweat about different angles.  Get a 3 degree and use for everything.   You should not need to use the file on side edge every time.  I normally use a 200 and 400 for normal touch up and skis only see a file maybe every 5th time if necessary.  this is my standard routine on all my race skis

 

As was said above wax AFTER you have down all the edge work (you can hot scrape if you have picked up a lot of dirt but normally the brass and or fine steel brush is sufficient).  and if you are doing 18 pairs think about a rotobrush

post #8 of 14
Thread Starter 

Thanks Scot, good to know.

post #9 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeepCold View Post
 

Just looking to see if this sounds about right to you guys as far as order of tuning steps….the tools I'm using are below, I know I'm missing pieces, just not sure what else is necessary...

 

1. Hot wax, quick scrape, brush with Brass to clear dirt out.  Repeat if the wax shavings have noticeable dirt in them.

2. Use the sidewall planer to pull back the wall

3. Use base file guide and toko file to set base edge, (do I wet the regular file?) then swap out for a few passes with each diamond stone low grit to high grit, applying spray each time, or can i use a combo of dipping in water so i don't use up all of the solution? 

4. What type of brush should I clean out the diamond stones with, or will soaking them release the metal shavings? 

5. Insert fine white ceramic into the file guide to harden the base edge angle

6. Tape off both sides of the base (how close to the edge, 2mm? this won't change the angle significantly?)

7. set side angle with (panzer or toko file ??) and fixed degree guide

8. run the diamonds a few times, 200-400-800

9. run fine ceramic on file guides to harden

10. gummy stone? or is there another step before gummy?

 

 

   1. Hot scraping is always a great procedure to perform semi-regularly--more so in the spring time when there are lots of "pollutants" on/in the snow...in this case I would make it the last step to clean any gunk left over from edge work.Thumbs Up

   2. Sidewall planing/trimming is a key step before filing, usually doesn't need to be done more than once or twice a year depending on how thorough you were with it the first time.

   3. Careful. Most if not all rec skis are going to come with the base bevel already set--typically at 1 degree. More filing here will only increase the bevel and/or cut into the base material.DON'T use your files wet, just your diamond and ceramic stones!!! I like to spray the stones a few times for each pass.

   4.Clean diamond stones with a toothbrush and warm water/denatured alcohol mix.

   5. Wait on this step until you are done filing the side edge. There will be a slight curl of steel that forms from filing the side edge that will hang over the base edge which will need to be removed first before final polishing.

   6. Thumbs Up

   7. It's best to use a 2 or 3 file progression. I wouldn't use a panzer as it is easy to remove too much material until you are used to using it. I would use a bastard, 2nd cut, and fine file. Or just bastard and 2nd cut. Such a progression will yield smaller striations which will then be easier to polish out, helping make your edges sharper and last longer (sharpness-wise). Clean your files with a file card after each pass, and again, do not use them wet. 

   8. A few to several passes for each grit, wetting frequently. Thumbs Up 

   9. Thumbs Up Cut off the curl left from filing first by holding one of your ceramic stones flat so it matches the angle of your base edge. Lift the rear of it to a 20-30* angle or so so that only the "front" of       the stone touches the edge, and make a few light passes tip to tail. Do this wet--this will remove the curl formed by filing. 

   10. 2 light passes with your gummi at a 45 degree angle to the edge will do the trick for removing the hanging burr left over from filing and polishing.

 

 

  I always like to recommend to new tuners that they practice all of the above on a pair of skis that they do not care about--maybe even buy a pair of old straight ones for $20 at a yard sale or thrift store...then work on your good ones after you get the feel for it. 

 

   zenny


Edited by zentune - 11/28/13 at 10:01am
post #10 of 14
Thread Starter 
Epic ski response Zenny, epic. I appreciate the time.
post #11 of 14
Couple thoughts:

Tape before you use the side wall planer and you don't have to plane the side walls until you are ready to set the side edge. You have your order doing the side wall planing, set the base edge (no tape) then set the side edge (tape). Set the base edge, tape, plane side walls, set side edge.

I also think if you are going to hot scrape, do it after you set all the edges. The base is just going to get dirty again.

Also, remember that once you set the edges, you only need to maintain them. That means put the files away and just use the diamond stones on the side edges.

I would set everyone's edges to the same; 1/3. If you need to set race skis to something specific, go ahead but all you are going to do is try to remember who gets what when they can all use the same. Even my beginner grandson gets 1/3. Some folks say that is too aggressive. He mostly skis in a wedge. I can set his edge at 5 degrees and it will have no impact on his turning. Even for a novice that is barely wedging, the side edge angle isn't that noticeable. Side edge angle doesn't really matter until you can tip the ski on its side. Just because the side edge is set to handle it, doesn't mean it is going to happen. It's more noticeable to folks carving and if they are carving, they will appreciate a 3 on the side.

ScotsSkier is right, consider a roto brush. Once you get everything set, and the wax has been hot cycled in, you might consider using the Rays Way waxwhizard doohickey. Just rub it in and brush off the wax. You can touch up a pair of skis in 5 minutes but you have to do it everyday after/before skiing.

I'm taking care of 17 pairs of skis for the family this year so I appreciate how daunting this is to you. Simplify it where you can and lean out the process. Possibly set all the base edges, then all the side edges etc. keeps from having to constantly change tools and set up. I was doing four pairs of skis at a time.

You might want to keep a log so you don't loose track of where you are.

Go slow at first and ask questions. Don't forget to have fun too.

Ken
Edited by L&AirC - 11/29/13 at 12:09pm
post #12 of 14
Quote:
Go pics
Ow at first and ask questions.

? L&AirC, there's an edit button in the lower left corner. This one isn't so bad, but noticed another post where auto correct was on the loose or something. You can edit your posts for a while after you submit.
post #13 of 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by L&AirC View Post


Go pics
Ow at first and ask questions. Don't forget to have fun too.

Ken

Sib,
I'm not even sure what I meant by that anymore. I'm visiting my son at Great Lakes Navy Base (just graduated Basic Training biggrin.gif ) and the internet connection we have on base sucks. Can't complain too much as we have the military's version of a suite and it's only $62 a night.

I know my intent was to say something like, "Go slow at first and ask questions..."

Ken
post #14 of 14

Here's my steps, been doing my own tunes for over 13 years.

New skis, ski them out of the box,

 

After a day or two, cut back the side wall, then slide the 1* base file down to only knock off any high spots, you don't want to change the base angle.

Then I take a black marker and put some ink on a section of the edge, then put a short panza file in the 93* steel edge guide, and take off enough to set the edge at 93* then put a 100 grit diamond stone on my 93* edge and run it down/up the edge a couple of times.

 

Then go ski. after every ski day, take the 100 grit diamond on the 93* steel edge guide. lube the stone with the 50/50 mix of denatured alcohol before use "as always". I use a old tooth brush and keep the 50/50 mix in a seal able plastic cup. I mix up about 200ml. That's last most of the season.

 

Then go ski. IMO people spend way to much time on this. It's not rocket science.

 

I also use Dominator Hyper-Zoom wax, if it's real cold I'll drip in a cold wax.

 

Before I wax I take a skivisions base flatten down and get the bases pretty flat, then tune before waxing. I wax every 3 or 4 days.

 

I brush with the same Red Creek rotor brushes I bought back about 1999. Mainly use the nylon brush and switch to the horse hair for colder temps.

 

Had a friend hand me my AC40's the other weekend (over 150 day's on them), she mentioned how sharp they were.

 

The idea is to make the skis last and keep them sharp with good glide.

 

OP you have two many tools in your list that you won't use. Pick a 1* base guide and a 92 or 93* guide. IMO you don't need a ceramic stone either or gummy.  Put that money towards rotor brushes.

 

Oh a good iron, there are some out there for around $40.

 

Check out Terry's site, Slidewright.com


Edited by Max Capacity - 12/1/13 at 1:00pm
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