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How long till one can start to carve decently - Page 7

post #181 of 194

There must be an echo in here....

post #180 of 180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jc-ski View Post
 

 

 

I may not be understanding things properly - ( if so, I'm in the right thread, that's for sure! ;-) - but I think TDK is suggesting pressure followed by up-unweighting. Kind of what you see clearly here 5 seconds in......

 

 

 

Is that not essentially a check turn with some stylish embellishments?  ;-)

 

Fellows creates pressure on his tails, followed by an up move. Not a check move, with pressure created by skis traveling across the direction of travel prior to the up, but still conceptually similar, or so it seems to me.

 

BTW...

 

noun: technique; plural noun: techniques
1. a way of carrying out a particular task, esp. the execution or performance of an artistic work or a scientific procedure.

 

Sure seems to me like Fellows with his "three step process" is describing a technique in his dolphin turn vid. Which is not to say it can't be incorporated into other techniques. Clearly it can.


Watch Fellows ski bumps after the dolphin turn drill (btw -the title says "tactics" and he clearly says "a way to practice, not a technique).The drill is the task to execute a performance, not the performance.   His skis aren't leaving the ground and there isn't a heavy edge set from the trough turning him (if that's what you mean).  He creates pressure and tips while fairly unweighted early at the top of the bump and begins to extend down the back and then flexes again.  If he is going very fast and there is a huge gaper-trough coming at him I bet he will use his tail to get a little more out of his unweighting like a dolphin turn.

 

Let me ask you this?  Which is more functional all-around skiing, "The short-poled bumper dudes or the way Chris Fellows skis?"  Who do you think would win in a GS race?  Who do you think would ski steep rocky terrain better?  Who will be better on ice?  Figure out what your intent is and then do it and have fun.  Personally, I don't want to come to a nice bump run after coming out of some tree-pow and say, " I wish I had my short, thin mogul skis and short poles so I can pivot to the trough until I turn."  But, that is MY intent, it may not be yours.  Intent, however, doesn't necessarily make things "efficient".  Also, watch some of the WC guys.  In some ways they may look like some of the skiers in the videos posted here, but you'll find that most of them actually do carve.  Can you imagine being on a high edge angle and then slamming into the trough?  Not fun!  That alone should tell you something about their 'technique".


Edited by CrudBuster - Today at 11:51 am
 
post #182 of 194

Heading for two hundred posts to answer the question...

Quote:
"How long till one can start to carve decently"

post #183 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
 

Let me ask you this?  Which is more functional all-around skiing, "The short-poled bumper dudes or the way Chris Fellows skis?"  Who do you think would win in a GS race?  Who do you think would ski steep rocky terrain better?  Who will be better on ice?

Funny that you mention this.  Back in 1982 at the resort I worked at they had this end of season invitational GS race.  It included the ski school directors, some NASTAR pace setters, one local pro racer, race team coaches, and the junior coach that was also the USSA National under 18 Freestyle Champion for that season.

 

I'll give you three guesses who won that race?  He was also in some early 80s Warren Miller films shot in Chaminix.  One hell of a bump skier and extreme skier that could also rip GS turns with the best of them..

post #184 of 194

He was under 18?

post #185 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Heading for two hundred posts to answer the question...

 

Quote:
 "How long till one can start to carve decently"

 

Welcome to epicski ;) 

 

The problem is twofold; "carve decently" is ill defined, and there are so many factors affecting a given skier's development. I think the best we can do for the OP is to show what different people look like after different amounts of time on snow, and let the OP draw draw his/her own conclusions. Josh Matta's videos are an example of exceptionally fast progression. Mine are probably average. Not sure aware of a series of videos showing a "slow progression" - at least not from anyone who'd own up to it :p

post #186 of 194

Well, that guy was also skiing on 223 DH boards in a lot of those movies.  He had all the tactics to perform how every he wanted, and even more so now (if it was Plake).  Scott Schmidt, I believe, had a racing background before he put on his yellow and black North Face extreme kit. 

 

It makes a good point that the best skiers can do it all.

post #187 of 194

So take that student level focus even further, steep or not most trails do not simply follow the fall line, rolls and side hills are built in elements of ski slopes. So even at the beginner level (not inclusive of the newbie corral) small variations exist in the terrain. We groom out some of that but leave some of that so our guests can play around with those small terrain features. While in the greater sense of things these variations do not seem like much to more experienced skiers but a newer skier sees them as much larger changes. This is where a good coach can seize the opportunity to shift that student's focus away from the "cookie cutter" turn production model we tend to advocate at that level. Choosing a specific line to either avoid, or move towards those slightly steeper / more difficult features is the embryonic beginning of making willful tactical line choices. So even at that level opportunities exist to reset the mental focus and allow the student's body to perform the maneuvers and movements we've practiced with a much stronger conscious focus on where we want to go, not how we are moving. If were are carving arcs a delay move that takes us across the hill slightly longer, or maybe even slightly less across the hill requires us to plan our future route accordingly. Eventually we might add doing something like making the ski flex into a deeper bend, or shifting the pressure so only one section of the ski flexes more than the rest of the ski. Exactly what that involves is where the technique debates enter the picture but again the bottom line is making the skis go to a specific spot, then go to another specific spot. The constraints of side-cut, ski stiffness, leg strength, and technical prowess all effect what we can expect to accomplish. Progressions to help develop this begin with round skidded turns to develop dynamic balance and rudimentary edging / pressure management skills. Even though the stronger focus usually starts with how to steer those skidding skis. Somewhere in that progression, Love To Ski is transitioning towards a turn with less skid and more edge grip. The single pictures imply some whole body rotary and inclination that extends through the finishing phase. Rather than debate the value of counter and such I am going to suggest a simple pole drill where the inside pole is kept vertical without allowing the tip to touch the snow. From there more active leg steering will be an easier task because the ability to balance on that edge platform will already be in place. My opinion is that simple activity is more than enough to put on an aspiring carver's plate. Even though a temporary park and ride quality generally accompanies this activity, I would again remind the critics that RoM appropriate for the neophyte carver need to remain pretty small since neither the terrain, or the speed involved, require that larger RoM. Baby Steps leading to larger ones, if you will...


Edited by justanotherskipro - 12/2/13 at 4:16pm
post #188 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
 

Well, that guy was also skiing on 223 DH boards in a lot of those movies.  He had all the tactics to perform how every he wanted, and even more so now (if it was Plake).  Scott Schmidt, I believe, had a racing background before he put on his yellow and black North Face extreme kit. 

 

It makes a good point that the best skiers can do it all.

Wasn't Plake but him, Moseley, et all could all hold their own in a GS course as well.  From what I cal tell, he (my old jr freestyle tam coach) never made it big time, but did get a sweet trip to ski Europe courtesy of Miller Entertainment out of the deal, as a 17/18 year old kid that must have been way cool.

 

FWIW, I'll take a GREAT bump skier in a GS race over a GREAT GS skier in a bump competition, but there are exceptions to both stereotypes.

post #189 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by crgildart View Post
 

Wasn't Plake but him, Moseley, et all could all hold their own in a GS course as well.  From what I cal tell, he (my old jr freestyle tam coach) never made it big time, but did get a sweet trip to ski Europe courtesy of Miller Entertainment out of the deal, as a 17/18 year old kid that must have been way cool.

 

FWIW, I'll take a GREAT bump skier in a GS race over a GREAT GS skier in a bump competition, but there are exceptions to both stereotypes.

Like I said, whatever your intent is, go for it.  If you are skiing bumps like Mosely then the 'virtual bump' should be no big deal.  If you are sliding and letting the trough do all the work, my bet is on the GS guy. 

This reminds of 91-92 when the men's world cup here got canceled due to about three feet of snow.  I saw some racers really struggling in the pow, but then again I saw some guy throw a huge backflip on an air I've never seen anyone launch off of and rip it down the line.  My jaw was on the bottom of the gondola.  Let's say they guy flailing in the pow and the ripper tied the next day in the GS course.  Which guy would you rather be?  BTW - this was the year that Alberto Tomba and Marc Giradelli were battling it out until the final slalom.  Guess who took it?  Tomba, Tomba, Tomba.  I got to slide the DH course right above the biggest air.  I was on course one second after Giradelli came by and I got to watch him sail 100ft in the air from directly behind him.  I'll tell you that side slipping down a steep world cup pitch with everyone watching, coaches telling me where to scrape and tv cameras everywhere was nerve-racking. Luckily I didn't fall.  I'll never forget that. 

.

I digress.  I'm not one to judge someone's style too often.  Its all skiing and fun and Lord knows that my style has changed and is still changing.  The 'bro-brah' dudes that look you up and down in the lift line don't exist to me. 

post #190 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrudBuster View Post
I got to slide the DH course right above the biggest air.  I was on course one second after Giradelli came by and I got to watch him sail 100ft in the air from directly behind him.  I'll tell you that side slipping down a steep world cup pitch with everyone watching, coaches telling me where to scrape and tv cameras everywhere was nerve-racking. Luckily I didn't fall.  I'll never forget that. 

 

Somewhere around here someone posted a world cup training run video where the racer was goofing around and threw a little spread eagle off one of those 100+ foot airs on the downhill course.  It was quite awesome..

post #191 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

The single pictures imply some whole body rotary and inclination that extends through the finishing phase... I am going to suggest a simple pole drill where the inside pole is kept vertical without allowing the tip to touch the snow. From there more active leg steering will be an easier task because the ability to balance on that edge platform will already be in place. My opinion is that simple activity is more than enough to put on an aspiring carver's plate. 

 

Really good point. You've created an external focus here that's easy for iLoveSkiing to work on. I love it.

post #192 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanotherskipro View Post
 

So take that student level focus even further, steep or not most trails do not simply follow the fall line, rolls and side hills are built in elements of ski slopes. So even at the beginner level (not inclusive of the newbie corral) small variations exist in the terrain. We groom out some of that but leave some of that so our guests can play around with those small terrain features. While in the greater sense of things these variations do not seem like much to more experienced skiers but a newer skier sees them as much larger changes. This is where a good coach can seize the opportunity to shift that student's focus away from the "cookie cutter" turn production model we tend to advocate at that level. Choosing a specific line to either avoid, or move towards those slightly steeper / more difficult features is the embryonic beginning of making willful tactical line choices. So even at that level opportunities exist to reset the mental focus and allow the student's body to perform the maneuvers and movements we've practiced with a much stronger conscious focus on where we want to go, not how we are moving. If were are carving arcs a delay move that takes us across the hill slightly longer, or maybe even slightly less across the hill requires us to plan our future route accordingly. Eventually we might add doing something like making the ski flex into a deeper bend, or shifting the pressure so only one section of the ski flexes more than the rest of the ski. Exactly what that involves is where the technique debates enter the picture but again the bottom line is making the skis go to a specific spot, then go to another specific spot. The constraints of side-cut, ski stiffness, leg strength, and technical prowess all effect what we can expect to accomplish. Progressions to help develop this begin with round skidded turns to develop dynamic balance and rudimentary edging / pressure management skills. Even though the stronger focus usually starts with how to steer those skidding skis. Somewhere in that progression, Love To Ski is transitioning towards a turn with less skid and more edge grip. The single pictures imply some whole body rotary and inclination that extends through the finishing phase. Rather than debate the value of counter and such I am going to suggest a simple pole drill where the inside pole is kept vertical without allowing the tip to touch the snow. From there more active leg steering will be an easier task because the ability to balance on that edge platform will already be in place. My opinion is that simple activity is more than enough to put on an aspiring carver's plate. Even though a temporary park and ride quality generally accompanies this activity, I would again remind the critics that RoM appropriate for the neophyte carver need to remain pretty small since neither the terrain, or the speed involved, require that larger RoM. Baby Steps leading to larger ones, if you will...

 

New drill - never encountered this one before.  Sounds like a good one.  Will use with students!  Thanks.

post #193 of 194
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeski919 View Post

Carving is a great tool. It's nearly impossible to say when you'll figure out carving. However, I will say that once you get the idea of it, it comes quickly. It's really about getting a good feel for your edges. Once you really get a sense of how to work your edges, carving comes quickly. By work your edges, I mean learn how to get up onto different edge angles at all different parts of the turn.

I'll give an analogy I use in lessons is to think of your edges as a butter knife. The snow is a piece of bread. I can use a butter knife to smear butter on bread, or I can use the same knife to cut the bread in half. It all depends on the angle of the knife. A low angle will slide and smear. A high angle will cut. Or carve, if you will.

 

I agree with the butter and toast analogy.  I use that one all the time.  

 

The video above shows some radical angles and some pretty amazing mobility.  Keep in mind that any limitation in your own mobility will prevent your body from getting into those positions. Take the opportunity now to sort out range of motion and strength issues to make your time on the slope more productive.

 

Then, go for a waist deep powder day and forget all the carving all together.

post #194 of 194

To reach the level of the guy in the video is of course measured in years. In terms of just sliding around with a high degree of carve.. not so long, really. You'll FEEL like him a lot sooner than you LOOK like him. There's plenty of advice here already on how to get started. Keep developing slowly, you're not going to look like that after a good run or two. and don't forget to leave your options for interest open!

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